Fast Souring - Modern Methods

[phyllobeddo]

Q: Can I use yeast cake from a previous batch?
A: Only if there were absolutely no hops in the batch from which you harvested it.

In my case there were no hops used. Sounds like I should be able to harvest the yeast cake and/or pitch on top of it. Should I expect the same type of souring as the first batch?
I kegged the Gose yesterday and still have the fermenter keg full of CO2 and just sitting there. I'm considering harvesting some or maybe just pitching a new batch on top. I know it would be an overpitch, but it sure would be easy to mix up another DME batch and throw it on top of the yeast cake.
Has any one tried this with a "co-pitch" yeast cake?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Should I expect the same type of souring as the first batch?

Yeah, I don't see why not. It's the same as co-pitching.

Repitching yeast/trub cake straight from a previous batch isn't something I recommend (for several reasons, none of which have to do with sour beer specifically). YMMV.

 

[brownni5]

Hey guys!

My article on sour beer is still a work in progress, but it's well on its way, so here you go:

Sour beer - **************** wiki

It also includes the modern method for making fast sour beers with Brett.

You're welcome to make changes (it's a wiki) or you can provide feedback here.

Cheers!

I have but one beef: in the chart, you imply that desirable bacteria flavors cannot be achieved with kettle souring - I disagree. I have brewed one such kettle sour Berliner that (in time) developed a very pleasant honey-lemon flavor. I agree that control over the process is difficult. I am not advocating for kettle souring, but feel that distinction would sound a little less biased.

The Wiki is very nicely done. I'm sure many will benefit from it. I'll continue to make sours the old-fashioned way for no other reason than it makes me feel a sense of nostalgia. But I'm glad to see some out there challenging the norms!

 

[RPh_Guy]

I have but one beef: in the chart, you imply that desirable bacteria flavors cannot be achieved with kettle souring - I disagree. I have brewed one such kettle sour Berliner that (in time) developed a very pleasant honey-lemon flavor. I agree that control over the process is difficult. I am not advocating for kettle souring, but feel that distinction would sound a little less biased.

Thanks for the feedback. I added the word "minimal" in the chart because you're right there is some. However the combination of boiling the sour wort and the subsequent massive CO2 release during fermentation removes the vast majority of any volatile bacteria-derived flavor compounds.
(See Dvysik et al 2019 "Pre-fermentation with lactic acid bacteria in sour beer production" -- not a great study but it does prove that boiling removes desirable fruity compounds produced by the bacteria.)

The Wiki is very nicely done. I'm sure many will benefit from it. I'll continue to make sours the old-fashioned way for no other reason than it makes me feel a sense of nostalgia. But I'm glad to see some out there challenging the norms!

Thanks! I still make some traditional sours too.

If anyone else wants to take a look, the sour beer article is more or less complete at this point. It's a wiki, so feel free to contribute directly too!

 

[fendersrule]

Winners! Perfect head. Perfect lacing. Perfect color.

 

[RPh_Guy]

@Dgallo @Jag75 @fendersrule
I added your photos to my wiki! I hope that's cool; let me know if anything needs changed.
Beautiful beers!

 

[fendersrule]

Looks correct to me. If you wanted to get uber detailed, mine used Goodbelley Juice + Renew Life combo.

 

[fendersrule]

I just had another peach and blackberry sour. Man, are they great!

There's some "funk" in there from the Lacto and they are insanely drinkable. Yesterday I liked the peach more (both being terrific), but today I actually loved downing the blackberry more. It's so hard to pick a favorite. You know you've got good beers at that point

I wonder if a fruited section on the Wiki would be a good addition. Honestly, it's no different than making fruited beer. Frozen fruit does wonders. Follow pasteurization steps, including "mashing" (not in the beer sense) while it is heating to "smush" it all up. Add some water if needed (only what is needed), and let it sit at 155-160F for the correct time. Pour into primary 3-4 days after fermentation. Using a large muslin sock will easily keep all seeds and skin from fruit intact. Weighing it down with .5LB or so of dollar store marbles is not a bad idea. Things to note is that you should not expect fruit flavors to be as much "forward" with lacto present, it's just not going to happen. But after a few sips, you can easily taste the hints of whatever fruit you put in. Making fruited sours is easy, makes your beers look beautiful, and really adds a hint of flavor to an already flavorful beer. I'm absolutely sold on the 67% 2-row + 33% white wheat formula for all fruit beer bases.

I was SO worried about head retention. You could have a topic on that. I can tell you with what I just brewed, the head retention is absolutely comparable to non-sour beers. I can pour a glass, and there will still be a 1mm or so head at the edge of the glass after 20 minutes if were to leave it, with a slightly film mostly in the center. This is likely due to the pre-acidification, which I would make sure to make a point of in the wiki too. Not only that, but the lacing will follow the beer as it drank. Not only did the taste blow my expectations, but the actual look, as it was being drank, presented itself flawlessly.

The picture I attached is the girlfriend's peach sour after 20 minutes of sitting, I kid you not. The reason it wasn't completely drank is because she was rushing to get some gardening done. I think the pic speaks for itself.

 

[Jag75]

@RPh_Guy - that's a really nice write up on that . Really nice photos of @Dgallo & @fendersrule

 

[Dgallo]

@Dgallo @Jag75 @fendersrule
I added your photos to my wiki! I hope that's cool; let me know if anything needs changed.
Beautiful beers!

Appreciate the love, Brother!

 

[Dgallo]

@RPh_Guy - that's a really nice write up on that . Really nice photos of @Dgallo & @fendersrule

Same to you on the Blueberry sour!

 

[chieftain]

Thanks for the great info. One question I had was on timing the dryhop with the drop in pH. Not sure if I want to let the lacto go all the way to the terminal point (3.1?). So if I'm happy with the sour level at day 3, I could add a bit of dry hop to halt the souring, let the yeast continue to work, and then dryhop as I normally do, like day 7, after a cool crash to drop the yeast? I was going to aim for a more substantial dryhop charge too, 5+oz.

 

[Jag75]

Thanks for the great info. One question I had was on timing the dryhop with the drop in pH. Not sure if I want to let the lacto go all the way to the terminal point (3.1?). So if I'm happy with the sour level at day 3, I could add a bit of dry hop to halt the souring, let the yeast continue to work, and then dryhop as I normally do, like day 7, after a cool crash to drop the yeast? I was going to aim for a more substantial dryhop charge too, 5+oz.

I honestly dont check the final ph before I dry hop. I use Goodbellys probiotic juice and I think it only goes so far on the sourness. I have a ph meter and I have a sour in my FF as we speak . I added the Goodbellys Wednesday. I'll check the ph soon just out of curiosity.

 

[Dgallo]

Thanks for the great info. One question I had was on timing the dryhop with the drop in pH. Not sure if I want to let the lacto go all the way to the terminal point (3.1?). So if I'm happy with the sour level at day 3, I could add a bit of dry hop to halt the souring, let the yeast continue to work, and then dryhop as I normally do, like day 7, after a cool crash to drop the yeast? I was going to aim for a more substantial dryhop charge too, 5+oz.

My personal concern with that is that during active fermentation, you will not get a real feel for the perceived level of sour in the beer and may stop the souring too soon. One thing to remember is a heavy drhop will raise your PH. So say the lacto stops at 3.2. Now you hit it with 8 oz dry hop. You’ll have the potential to raise you ph to about 3.4/3.5

 

[Jag75]

Didnt even think about dry hopping increasing the ph . I usually only dry hop the sour with .5 oz . I will do a pre dry hop ph and a post . Good thinking Dgallo

 

[RPh_Guy]

Thanks for the great info. One question I had was on timing the dryhop with the drop in pH. Not sure if I want to let the lacto go all the way to the terminal point (3.1?). So if I'm happy with the sour level at day 3, I could add a bit of dry hop to halt the souring, let the yeast continue to work, and then dryhop as I normally do, like day 7, after a cool crash to drop the yeast? I was going to aim for a more substantial dryhop charge too, 5+oz.

Yes, that's fine, if you want to stop it early.
@Dgallo makes a great point about the pH -- adding a relatively high amounts of hops decreases the sourness to some extent.

The culture I use (Renew Life) reaches about 3.2 to 3.3.

 

[chieftain]

My personal concern with that is that during active fermentation, you will not get a real feel for the perceived level of sour in the beer and may stop the souring too soon. One thing to remember is a heavy drhop will raise your PH. So say the lacto stops at 3.2. Now you hit it with 8 oz dry hop. You’ll have the potential to raise you ph to about 3.4/3.5

Ah yes, that is a great point. So, bombs away then.

 

[SanPancho]

Im curious to know where the validity of the idea comes from about dry hops stopping lacto metabolism and souring.

the “fact” that 5-10 ibus will stop lacto is based on ibus, i.e. isomerized alpha acids. (Or at least quoted that way)
dry hops don’t add ibus (not in significant amounts at least)

so is the idea that even non-isomerized alphas stop lacto?
something else in the hops?
beta acids?

whats the rationale here?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Im curious to know where the validity of the idea comes from about dry hops stopping lacto metabolism and souring.

the “fact” that 5-10 ibus will stop lacto is based on ibus, i.e. isomerized alpha acids. (Or at least quoted that way)
dry hops don’t add ibus (not in significant amounts at least)

so is the idea that even non-isomerized alphas stop lacto?
something else in the hops?
beta acids?

whats the rationale here?

Good questions.
Scott Janish has some articles about how dry hops add bitterness:
http://scottjanish.com/increasing-bitterness-dry-hopping/http://scottjanish.com/dry-hopping-effect-bitterness-ibu-testing/
There's anecdotal evidence that dry hopping inhibits LAB here:
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Hops#Inhibiting_Lactic_Acid_Bacteria
I dry hopped only one time at a rate of 0.5oz in 5 gal, and it stopped the LAB. However I typically use a hop tea, which also stops further LAB development in my experience.

It's unclear exactly which compounds are responsible for the LAB inhibition and to what extent. For example the aged hops used in Lambic contribute zero alpha acids, so that's certainly not the only compound responsible for LAB inhibition.

I intend to do some experiments myself to find the minimum hop rate needed for inhibition and the effects of other variables like alpha acid level.

 

[chieftain]

So if I don't have any calcium carbonate on hand to make a lacto starter, is it going to be a problem? I'd like to brew a sour ipa with WLP644. Can I just pitch 2 Swanson capsules 12-24 hours post yeast pitch (rehydrated first in boiled water)?

 

[RPh_Guy]

So if I don't have any calcium carbonate on hand to make a lacto starter, is it going to be a problem? I'd like to brew a sour ipa with WLP644. Can I just pitch 2 Swanson capsules 12-24 hours post yeast pitch (rehydrated first in boiled water)?

I believe a starter is still helpful even without calculation carbonate. (Or at least that's the popular opinion.)

Just take a little wort from the batch before pitching yeast.

 

[chieftain]

I believe a starter is still helpful even without calculation carbonate. (Or at least that's the popular opinion.)

Just take a little wort from the batch before pitching yeast.

Cool, thanks.

 

[SanPancho]

Hop tea implies boiling water, and ibus, no?

So if I don't have any calcium carbonate on hand to make a lacto starter, is it going to be a problem? I'd like to brew a sour ipa with WLP644. Can I just pitch 2 Swanson capsules 12-24 hours post yeast pitch (rehydrated first in boiled water)?

Have a buddy who just puts half a piece of white chalk in his lacto starters. Much easier to separate the chalk from the bugs.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Hop tea implies boiling water, and ibus, no?

Yep. To make hop tea for 5 gal I bring 300-500mL water to a boil and then steep 0.5-0.75 oz hops in it for 5-10 minutes. I then chill that in an ice bath and add the whole thing.

 

[BeBetterBrewing]

Hello all, happy whatever day it is.
My plan is to make a sour in a 5 gallon jug. Pull 2.5 gal off at a time (solera). I have some sour cherry funk gigayeast laying around. With the lack of ability to get to the brew stores (have a 1 year old, dual working house) wondering if I were to order a wheat or light ale extract kit, how well would that work?
I am looking to make a good sour that makes you pucker. Not the light sours that are in the market that are more refreshing and fruity.
Really going for the sour patch war head effect.
Let me know if you have any suggestions? Tips? Certain kits? Anything? I’m open to all suggestions.

 

[thehaze]

I also did 3 sours using the co-pitch method and turned out very good, for a first try:

Golden Sour Ale 4.5% ABV - 90% Pilsner + 10% Chit / LalBrew Sour Pitch + US-05 / Dry hopped with El Dorado / Kettle additions: lots of citrus peel ( mandarine, lime, lemon ), but forgot coriander seeds - next time then.

Blueberry Sour Ale 4.7% ABV - 90% Pilsner + 10% Chit / LalBrew Sour Pitch + US-05 / Dry Hopped with Hallertau Blanc / Fermenter additions: frozen wild blueberries, blueberry puree and blueberry extract / / Kettle additions: lactose and coriander seeds.

I don't have a photo of the third one, but that one is also red, with the head being whiter - that one got spices, light and dark muscovado sugar, red and blackcurrants, blackberries and raspberries.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Hello all, happy whatever day it is.
My plan is to make a sour in a 5 gallon jug. Pull 2.5 gal off at a time (solera). I have some sour cherry funk gigayeast laying around. With the lack of ability to get to the brew stores (have a 1 year old, dual working house) wondering if I were to order a wheat or light ale extract kit, how well would that work?
I am looking to make a good sour that makes you pucker. Not the light sours that are in the market that are more refreshing and fruity.
Really going for the sour patch war head effect.
Let me know if you have any suggestions? Tips? Certain kits? Anything? I’m open to all suggestions.

Assuming the extract is unhopped, a wheat ale kit would generally be a good choice.

However, GigaYeast Sour Cherry Funk is a traditional blend and therefore not a good culture to use for these modern souring methods. Similarly, a "solera" method is more traditional and not beneficial when using modern methods.

If you want to use Brett with a modern method (which I highly recommend), see the "Modern Fast & Funky" souring method here:
https://***************.com/wiki/Sour_beer
Cheers! I'm happy to answer any questions.

 

[Beer666]

How long would you ferment wlp644 for before adding lacto and can i pitch wlp650 in secondary? I remember you saying 644 was really good but i cant find the post. Cheers

 

[RPh_Guy]

How long would you ferment wlp644 for before adding lacto and can i pitch wlp650 in secondary? I remember you saying 644 was really good but i cant find the post. Cheers

WLP644 produces really great tropical pineapple and mango esters (no phenols) and it's also a very easy strain to use. I let it ferment at 68-70°F ambient with free rise.

In most cases (for post-souring) you should add the Lacto when fermenting is about 20-40% finished, which tends to be around 24-48 hours for most brewers.

If you want to use Brett, I suggest using the fast & funky method on my wiki. Otherwise acidity mutes the Brett expression, and you're on a traditional sour timeline.

 

[fun4stuff]

So I’m starting a raspberry-lime sour wheat.

I could not find distilled or RO water. People must be hoarding that too. So i went with spring water. I found the water report for the spring water online, but there was quite a range in mineral content (probably comes from multiple sources). I planned out the brew and picked mineral ppm in the middle of listed ranges.

So anyway, missed my mash ph of 5.4 and hit 5.8. Should I bother correcting pH down to 5.2?

 

[RPh_Guy]

So anyway, missed my mash ph of 5.4 and hit 5.8. Should I bother correcting pH down to 5.2?

The best thing to do is adjust the pH in the kettle to around 5.1. Acidify it in the last 10-20 minutes. (For every beer)

 

[evenrude]

Thank you for all the great info. Glad I found this thread during my planning stage for my first sour.

I have a two part question. Can I just drop a couple full L-plantarum capsules in at the same time I pitch my yeast (kveik) without a starter? If so would putting a second empty capsule over the top be advantageous by allowing the yeast to "do its thing" before the lacto kicked in? This would be similar to the co-sour method without the need to open up the fermenter.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Thank you for all the great info. Glad I found this thread during my planning stage for my first sour.

I have a two part question. Can I just drop a couple full L-plantarum capsules in at the same time I pitch my yeast (kveik) without a starter? If so would putting a second empty capsule over the top be advantageous by allowing the yeast to "do its thing" before the lacto kicked in? This would be similar to the co-sour method without the need to open up the fermenter.

The capsules should never be added full. Open them and add the contents.

If you want full yeast expression, use the post-souring method (making a Lacto starter with wort from the batch). There's no reason to worry about briefly opening the fermenter at that stage.

 

[fun4stuff]

The best thing to do is adjust the pH in the kettle to around 5.1. Acidify it in the last 10-20 minutes. (For every beer)

For every beer?! Looks like we’re fixing the holes and filling knowledge gaps. I have just been checking mash pH after 15 mins.... but I’m usually targeting (and hitting) 5.3 to 5.4, so I’m probably not too far off.

I was able to had a few more mL’s of lactic acid and get the pH down to 5.1.

 

[toadie]

Hey RPh_Guy first thanks for all the info! I'm a newish brewer doing my third sour. I was going to use oyl 605 to co-sour but you steered me away from that so doing possibly my last kettle sour! I'm in Canada and can't find the exact pills you use and want to see what you thought of this bottle I found at costco. Hopefully it is readable.

I also wondered what you or anyone thought about the tip of the pH meter getting tainted (moreso for brett for me down the road) and proper cleaning etiquette.

Cheers

 

[RPh_Guy]

Hey RPh_Guy first thanks for all the info! I'm a newish brewer doing my third sour. I was going to use oyl 605 to co-sour but you steered me away from that so doing possibly my last kettle sour! I'm in Canada and can't find the exact pills you use and want to see what you thought of this bottle I found at costco. Hopefully it is readable.

I also wondered what you or anyone thought about the tip of the pH meter getting tainted (moreso for brett for me down the road) and proper cleaning etiquette.

Cheers

Looks good to me!
Store it in the fridge.

I would never stick my pH meter into a batch, so I have no reason to keep it sanitary.

 

[tizoc]

The probiotic I use
View attachment 672712

Hey, I just noticed that the probiotic you use has a lot more than just L. Plantarum. Isn't that an issue with contamination of your equipment if you do non-sour beers?

I started trying these methods using pure L. Plantarum, but the only probiotic I have been able find locally with L. Plantarum also contains other stuff:

Lactobacillus casei 3,3 x 107 U.F.C.
Lactobacillus plantarum 3,3 x 107 U.F.C.
Streptococcus faecalis 3,3 x 107 U.F.C.
Bidobacterium brevis 1,0 x 106 U.F.C.

I don't want any bacteria creeping up on my lagers and making them sour. I guess for stainless steel (my fermenter, I sanitize it with iodophor) and glass (some 10L carboys I sometimes use) this shouldn't be an issue, but silicone (hoses, gaskets, stoppers, etc) is another story.

Have you had any contamination problems when using those capsules you have? or do you just use separate equipment? Is it really that safe to depend on hops to neutralize the bacteria?

 

[fun4stuff]

Hey, I just noticed that the probiotic you use has a lot more than just L. Plantarum. Isn't that an issue with contamination of your equipment if you do non-sour beers?

I started trying these methods using pure L. Plantarum, but the only probiotic I have been able find locally with L. Plantarum also contains other stuff:



I don't want any bacteria creeping up on my lagers and making them sour. I guess for stainless steel (my fermenter, I sanitize it with iodophor) and glass (some 10L carboys I sometimes use) this shouldn't be an issue, but silicone (hoses, gaskets, stoppers, etc) is another story.

Have you had any contamination problems when using those capsules you have? or do you just use separate equipment? Is it really that safe to depend on hops to neutralize the bacteria?

I've been using the goodblly juice. It is only L. Plantarum. Have you looked for this? They carry it at the grocery stores here in Midwest... And I'm located relatively in the boonies.

Rph had mentioned using capsules that are only l. Plantarum they're listed on the wiki referenced above). Last i checked, these were available online.

 

[tizoc]

Problem is that I'm not in USA. The only probiotic drink I know exists in my country is Yakult (contains L. Casei), and it is popular among local brewers who do kettle sours (but I'm not one of them! so I'm very glad this thread exists).
I looked around for locally sold probiotic capsules/powder containing L. Plantarum and I found what I described in that post.

I haven't tried buying the pure L. Plantarum capsules online yet because I don't know if they will make it through customs clearance (they are pretty anal, I have had issues even with hop pellets).

 

[fun4stuff]

Problem is that I'm not in USA. The only probiotic drink I know exists in my country is Yakult (contains L. Casei), and it is popular among local brewers who do kettle sours (but I'm not one of them! so I'm very glad this thread exists).
I looked around for locally sold probiotic capsules/powder containing L. Plantarum and I found what I described in that post.

I haven't tried buying the pure L. Plantarum capsules online yet because I don't know if they will make it through customs clearance (they are pretty anal, I have had issues even with hop pellets).

Wow! I see the issue. It is my understanding that some of the other species of lactobaccilus are not as sensitive to hops and would then require separate beer line like you said or use the kettle sour method where you boil after souring....will see what Rph says.