Failure of Brewha BIAC

[jeffreybandel]

I'm not sure it really needs to come with a water pressure regulator - it's just something else to add to the price. Not everyone will want one, not everyone will need one, etc.

I have had my BIAC for close to a year now, and I know that when I received my conical, there was a blog post about municipal water pressure and the jacket. It had specific recommendations on how to prevent the jacket from deforming. Sure, it would be nice if the BIAC came with the pressure regulator, however, once the customer is informed of the risks, it's their own responsibility to prevent them from happening.

It's no different than a PRV for the lid - sure it would be nice if it came with one, but it doesn't...so I've been on the search to try and find one that conforms to the ratings on the BIAC. This isn't BREWHA's responsibility though; they've informed us of the risk of pressure building up during fermentation and vacuum during chilling, and have provided suggestions on how to prevent it from happening. IMO, that's all they need to do.

When your BIAC came, did it come with instructions that warned about deformation when chilling?

 

[-CHRIS-]

It looks to me like it was caused by over pressurizing the jacket - not a vacuum. Standard household water pressures are way too high for the jacket, and AFAIK too high for commercial jackets. This tank for example, is rated at 15psi...household water pressure can range, but 40+ psi isn't uncommon. Any restriction on the out side of the jacket combined with high water pressures is sure to lead to jacket failure.

Wow, that is crazy, you are saying if the drain is the least bit restricted it can crater the jacket due to the pressure? That really needs to have a pressure blow off like a water heater.

Chris

 

[Jimmy82]

Wow, that is crazy, you are saying if the drain is the least bit restricted it can crater the jacket due to the pressure? That really needs to have a pressure blow off like a water heater.

Chris

If it restricts it to the point that it builds up past the pressure the jacket can withstand, then yes, it will buckle.

This is no different than commercial brewery tanks...they don't pump 40+psi into the jackets and block the outlets off expecting that they will hold that kind of pressure. We, as the owners of the tanks need to take some responsibility and ensure that WE set these up properly when we start using them.

 

[trimixdiver1]

This is really concerning, why in the heck wouldn't Brewha include a pressure regulator as standard equipment? At 5k a $10 regulator would be nothing to include. They are setting you up for failure.

Do you have a copy of the manual? Maybe we can be virtual customers.

 

[jeffreybandel]

Wow, that is crazy, you are saying if the drain is the least bit restricted it can crater the jacket due to the pressure? That really needs to have a pressure blow off like a water heater.

Chris

Agreed. If you go to around the 25:30 minute mark in the instruction video he says the best thing to do is run your chilling media as quickly as possible. You do not need to control the flow or anything. You just get it going.

 

[jeffreybandel]

This is really concerning, why in the heck wouldn't Brewha include a pressure regulator as standard equipment? At 5k a $10 regulator would be nothing to include. They are setting you up for failure.

Do you have a copy of the manual? Maybe we can be virtual customers.

No manual or instructions. I relied on the video titled "How to brew all grain beer with the BREWHA BIAC" that was on their website. Maybe I should have been scouring the internet for blog posts.

 

[Jimmy82]

When your BIAC came, did it come with instructions that warned about deformation when chilling?

No, it didn't come with instructions, but when mine shipped I received separate email from BREWHA with links to specific articles on their blog about safety, how to use it, tips, etc.

 

[Jimmy82]

No manual or instructions. I relied on the video titled "How to brew all grain beer with the BREWHA BIAC" that was on their website. Maybe I should have been scouring the internet for blog posts.

I can't remember the video as it's been a year since I watched it, but did he have a valve fitted to the "out" side of the jacket?

 

[jeffreybandel]

I can't remember the video as it's been a year since I watched it, but did he have a valve fitted to the "out" side of the jacket?

No. And he says specifically not to restrict the outflow with a valve.

 

[Jimmy82]

No. And he says specifically not to restrict the outflow with a valve.

Which is correct, and that's how I have mine set up. Maybe I misunderstood/misread, but I was under the impression you had a valve on the outlet of your BIAC jacket?

Either way, the only way to truly ensure pressure doesn't build up in the jacket is to regulate the pressure before it enters. There are options out there, and Nathan has always been upfront about the jacket pressure ratings.

 

[jeffreybandel]

Which is correct, and that's how I have mine set up. Maybe I misunderstood/misread, but I was under the impression you had a valve on the outlet of your BIAC jacket?

Either way, the only way to truly ensure pressure doesn't build up in the jacket is to regulate the pressure before it enters. There are options out there, and Nathan has always been upfront about the jacket pressure ratings.

I understand the 3psi pressure ratings. But if there is manufacturing FOD in the jacket that does not allow water to exit and pressure to build up to the point of destroying the system is that a user error? He does not have a pressure regulator installed on the instructional video and does not mention the need for one. I wonder who else out there has a pressure regulator installed?

 

[rockydog101]

I am in the market for a fancy all in one. The Brewha BIAC looked appealing because of the foot print. But here we have a $5,000 failure that a bunch of very experienced Brewers can't quite figure out and the company has basically told the customer to get bent and spend $1,000 to fix something without them (Brewha) seemingly having a full understanding of why their equipment failed.

As another poster said, I'm shocked Brewha didn't ask for your unit and use it to do tests. No thanks. Blichman, here I come.

 

[Jimmy82]

I understand the 3psi pressure ratings. But if there is manufacturing FOD in the jacket that does not allow water to exit and pressure to build up to the point of destroying the system is that a user error? He does not have a pressure regulator installed on the instructional video and does not mention the need for one. I wonder who else out there has a pressure regulator installed?

Sure, there shouldn't be FOD in the jacket, but that doesn't negate the fact that the customer should ensure they are not supplying higher pressure than the jacket can handle.

If a brewery orders a tank and it's rated to 15psi, the brewery is responsible to hook it up in a manner that will not exceed that pressure. If the supply pressure was the <5psi that the jacket is rated for, the FOD would not have caused damage.

 

[JKoravos]

A $5000 jacketed tank that can't handle household water pressure and no means of protecting against failure? You gotta be kidding me.

 

[jeffreybandel]

Sure, there shouldn't be FOD in the jacket, but that doesn't negate the fact that the customer should ensure they are not supplying higher pressure than the jacket can handle.

If a brewery orders a tank and it's rated to 15psi, the brewery is responsible to hook it up in a manner that will not exceed that pressure. If the supply pressure was the <5psi that the jacket is rated for, the FOD would not have caused damage.

I understand what you are saying. However I am not a professional brewer. I have been brewing for 25 years though. I cannot get over the fact that in their operational video on their website they do not use one, nor do they mention the need. Absent any other instructions that is what I followed.

 

[jeffreybandel]

One more thing: Brewha actually says the system should not be pressurized at all. If that is the case, how do you even hook up water to cool it?

 

[Jimmy82]

One more thing: Brewha actually says the system should not be pressurized at all. If that is the case, how do you even hook up water to cool it?

Really? Where did you see this?

 

[trimixdiver1]

Well we can all agree that this is an inferior product for the price they are charging. If they were going to send you another for a little more than 1k, their margin is large enough to just send you another and eat it.

Why some homebrew equipment suppliers think it's cute not to make an actual paper manual is beyond me, other than since nothing is documented on paper they can get away with stuff like this.

As an engineer I would make sure under normal conditions a failure like this shouldn't happen. Again a simple regulator included could have helped, and adding a set PRV on the jacket would prevent an over pressurizing of the jacket. A simple breather could have prevented a vacuum. This was not engineered, it was mocked up and sent to China.

This thread should prove as a warning to any other fledgling startups to do your due diligence and engineer your product correctly.

All this will do is make Brewha look bad, whether they are 100% wrong or 10% wrong. They can't afford bad press or us ripping apart their product, but for 5k this shouldn't happen. I hope Brewha wakes up and sees this as an opportunity to do an M&M and ensure this is corrected. If they don't, I fear they will pay the ultimate price by loosing a majority of their potential customers.

Make it right Brewha. Post a paper manual with real specifications. If you can't do that, you have no business selling a product.

 

[watermelon83]

Do the world a favor and file a BBB complaint. Lack of a response to that will go on record.

 

[Jimmy82]

I understand what you are saying. However I am not a professional brewer. I have been brewing for 25 years though. I cannot get over the fact that in their operational video on their website they do not use one, nor do they mention the need. Absent any other instructions that is what I followed.

You don't *need* one, but if you don't use something to decrease the pressure, you're doing so at your own risk.

It's like filling a tire. You know the pressure rating, but a compressor will surpass the tire pressure rating (and potentially make the tire fail). The tire manufacturer doesn't include a PRV in the tire - you're expected to not exceed the rated pressure on your own.

 

[RiverCityBrewer]

A $5000 jacketed tank that can't handle household water pressure and no means of protecting against failure? You gotta be kidding me.

If the vessel in question was actually 5k, then I would feel the same way. The system costs around 5k, the tank is $1600... quite a difference. "Household water pressure" is not a standard in any part of the world that I am aware of, so its not really a valid argument to say that it can't handle it. Water pressure for me is near 80psi, and I can and have done damage with it. I do agree that some type of inlet regulator should be (have been) provided given the design limitations of the jacket.

 

[trimixdiver1]

Really? Where did you see this?

This shouldn't be a issue! Where is a manual that tells you this? Your telling me after I fork over 5k all I get is a YouTube video and a reference to some blog posts????

There shouldn't be any ambiguity relating to specifications, especially if it will destroy the product or put the user in potential danger.

 

[Jimmy82]

This shouldn't be a issue! Where is a manual that tells you this? Your telling me after I fork over 5k all I get is a YouTube video and a reference to some blog posts????

There shouldn't be any ambiguity relating to specifications, especially if it will destroy the product or put the user in potential danger.

This is the first I'm hearing about the "not pressurizing" and I can't find reference to it other than a customer stating it. The website specifies 5psi pressure for the vessel and jacket. I don't think that's ambiguous.

And like RiverCity mentioned - the cost of the conical itself isn't $5000; it's actually $1600...that's a big difference.

 

[philipCT]

I have one of these also but I have to play devil's advocate and say that if pressure from household water is such a concern, the BIAC should come with a pressure regulator. The pressure regulator that is being sold now is a new item not available when I bought mine in December and it is still an option and not standard equipment. But the one thing we do know is it is not recommended that you place a valve on the outlet of the jacket and if there was a valve on the outlet of the jacket, then I'm afraid this one may be a goner. I will be ordering a valve like this for mine.
http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-...GabjoSy806mMo1wh-GQxTH9Z8k9VMw4OIUaAp0X8P8HAQ

Gee, I hope you don't use this. Note this message prominently displayed at the bottom of the web page for this item:

Note: This pressure regulator contains more than 0.25% lead and is illegal to use in any plumbing system providing water for human consumption anywhere in the United States.​

 

[RiverCityBrewer]

Gee, I hope you don't use this. Note this message prominently displayed at the bottom of the web page for this item:

Note: This pressure regulator contains more than 0.25% lead and is illegal to use in any plumbing system providing water for human consumption anywhere in the United States.​

Are you drinking the chilling water?

 

[limulus]

Are you drinking the chilling water?

You beat me to it

 

[Jimmy82]

Threads like this are the reason we have instructions on the back of shampoo bottles...

 

[Gameface]

Threads like this are the reason we have instructions on the back of shampoo bottles...

Using a brewing system and shampooing your hair are two completely different things. If the user follows the company's process for using the equipment and the equipment fails that's not all on the user.

Yeah, we all have to take a certain amount of responsibility and educate ourselves on the products we use, but we use thousands and thousands of products and none of us are experts on all of them. We rely on instructions and a certain amount of failsafe engineering.

 

[trimixdiver1]

Sorry to get heated, but even $1600 is a lot, to not give specs in writing.

As to the lead, if he wanted to reuse the warm post chill water to sanitize or whatever then it is an issue.

Long story short, I think Brewha needs to fully explain why they think it's user error, for no other reason than to help prevent this happening to another customer that will probably read this thread before buying their product.

 

[trimixdiver1]

Threads like this are the reason we have instructions on the back of shampoo bottles...

When bringing a product to market its the companies responsibility to ensure the customer has all the info to properly use their product. There a lot of morons out there and people who may not know as much as you do. So the shampoo thing is irrelevant to this type of product.