failed mash. 12# grain and OG is only 1.034 WTF?

[hottpeper13]

With the little water chem he gave us I would think it would make an awesome RIS with SRM of 36+, before the softener.

 

[IslandLizard]

Unless this is the first time the OP brewed a pale ale or using a different mashing technique, I still wonder why he never encountered this issue before. Something must have changed drastically, and suddenly.

 

[DavidWood2115]

My guess would be the OP's water supply has become suddenly much harder, possibly due to his city's water sourcing. A call to the water department may shine some light on that.

I second the suggestion to call your water department. My local city water changes significantly between winter and summer, because the water department avoids using the wells that need expensive pre-treatment during the (lower demand) winter season. Given that CC's water is all surface water, a possible culprit might be a rainfall event in the week(s) before brewing? In any case, I imagine the water department tests daily and could tell you if there had been an aberration.

 

[IslandLizard]

Since you never had noticeable issues before, I'd definitely contact your water provider for some insights on recent changes in your water composition.

To remove much of the water guesswork, @Buckeye_Hydro can very likely set you up with a suitable RO system that fits your needs without breaking the bank.

Or just buy (bulk) RO water for pale ales or when needed, as I mentioned in post #6.

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

We can do that!

 

[doug293cz]

At 149 °F (65 °C), beta-amylase is denatured within 40–60 minutes and alpha-amylase activity will cease after 2 hours at 153 °F (67 °C).

Do you have a reference for this? I have read papers that indicate enzyme lifetimes are strongly affected by the conditions under which they are measured. For example lifetimes measured in buffer solutions are shorter than lifetimes measured in actual mashes. I'd like to understand what the measurement conditions were that gave rise to these values.

For most lighter bodied beers, I now start the mash at 64°C (147F) for 50min. And reckon there's enough small base overshoots to get the alpha-amylase going (it works from around 65°C). Then an alpha-amylase rest at 71°C, for 10min (after ~10min for heating).

It is a common misconception that the enzymes in malt only start working after a certain temperature is reached in the mash. But, the biological reasons that the enzymes exist is to convert starch to sugar in the germinating seeds, so they can grow enough to sprout leaves and start photosynthesis. Barley can germinate and grow at temps almost down to freezing:

"Germination is dependent on temperature. The ideal temperature for barley germination​

is 12°–25°C, but germination will occur between 4°C and 37°C."​

​

In order for germination and initial growth to occur, the enzymes need to be active, so they must be active at much lower than mash temps. There is also lots of empirical evidence that alpha amylase is active at typical fermentation temperatures, as adding alpha amylase to a stuck fermentation will often restart fermentation and allow a lower FG (depending on the cause of the stuck fermentation.) So, all of the enzymes are active from below room temp, and their speed of action increases with increasing temperature. At high enough temperatures, the enzymes start to thermally degrade (denature), and mash schedules are ideally set to allow the enzymes to complete their work before they get denatured.

Brew on

 

[bwible]

That extract says Mr. Beer on it. And it says Classic American Light lager. I can’t see the size of the extract but those are normally smaller cans made for the people who own the Mr. Beer plastic barrel. I haven’t seen Mr. Beer for a long time, I think they come in a couple different sizes. Or used to.

Its probably not a 3.3 lb can like we would normally see. So thats why it didn’t raise the gravity maybe as much as you would have expected.

Its also not plain extract. Its pre-hopped extract, basically a kit to add water to for that style. Though granted American Light Lager is not going to add a ton of hops it will increase your ibu slightly.

Looks like you were in a good range to just call it a pale ale or maybe an amber ale.

 

[bwible]

If you’ve never seen Mr. Beer here it is. Its basically a 2 gallon plastic barrel and they just have you boil some water, dump in your extract, pour it in the fermenter after it dissolves and add yeast. To their credit they do sell you sanitizer and tell you to sanitize everything. They also sell cheap plastic beer bottles.

Anything that gets people started homebrewing is a good thing. But its comical to read the 5 star reviews from people posting a picture of a glass of their light American lager that looks like ESB or Amber Ale. And these are people using “fresh” extract.

https://www.mrbeer.com/american-lager-starter-kit

 

[odie]

UPDATE....possible issue

Well, I went and brewed a dopplebock yesterday. I had already pulled the grain bill a couple weeks ago, the same time I pulled the DIPA grain bill.

I got ready to mash in and when I opened the grain bucket and was ready to dump it in...I observed that I had not yet crushed the grain. it was just set aside whole so as to not have crushed grain sitting several days.

I'm thinking on the DIPA, I mashed in early morning before work, it was dark and I probably just grabbed the grain bucket and dumped. Since I pulled the grain bill at least a week earlier, I probably didn't crush it yet and simply forgot.

Usually I pull grain the night before and crush right away since I will mash in early next morning. On the DIPA and Dopplebock...I was gonna brew like a week or so later, so left it unmilled until brew day.

The dopplebock, after crushing, mashed just fine.

 

[Broothru]

UPDATE....possible issue

Well, I went and brewed a dopplebock yesterday. I had already pulled the grain bill a couple weeks ago, the same time I pulled the DIPA grain bill.

I got ready to mash in and when I opened the grain bucket and was ready to dump it in...I observed that I had not yet crushed the grain. it was just set aside whole so as to not have crushed grain sitting several days.

I'm thinking on the DIPA, I mashed in early morning before work, it was dark and I probably just grabbed the grain bucket and dumped. Since I pulled the grain bill at least a week earlier, I probably didn't crush it yet and simply forgot.

Usually I pull grain the night before and crush right away since I will mash in early next morning. On the DIPA and Dopplebock...I was gonna brew like a week or so later, so left it unmilled until brew day.

The dopplebock, after crushing, mashed just fine.

Well, that would surely provide a plausible explanation!

Maybe you could ask the mods to relocate to the “Don’t Do That” thread. Confession is good for the soul. BTDT.

 

[odie]

yeah...pretty sure I mashed WHOLE GRAIN...

 

[day_trippr]

Whoopsie!

Also: Nailed it

 

[mashdar]

BTDT.

Brewed there, drank that? (jk)

 

[IslandLizard]

yeah...pretty sure I mashed WHOLE GRAIN...

I'd expect to see many whole kernels or large grain pieces and am surprised you didn't notice when stirring the mash or dumping it out...

And surprised you even got 1.035.

 

[odie]

I'd expect to see many whole kernels or large grain pieces and am surprised you didn't notice when stirring the mash or dumping it out...

And surprised you even got 1.035.

I'm so used to milling right after I pull the grain bill and then dumping it in when I wake up...

I didn't even look at it. I just opened the lid and dumped into the BIAB and dropped the dissuser plate on top and fired up.

When I dumped the grain bag I did note that is felt heavier than I expected...

As for getting 1.035....it was mashing for 10 hours...

 

[Broothru]

I'm so used to milling right after I pull the grain bill and then dumping it in when I wake up...

I didn't even look at it. I just opened the lid and dumped into the BIAB and dropped the dissuser plate on top and fired up.

When I dumped the grain bag I did note that is felt heavier than I expected...

As for getting 1.035....it was mashing for 10 hours...

Yeah, well at least you had your grain basket in place before dumping in the grains. Early one morning, on a day way in the past, I had dutifully crushed my grains, heated up the strike water in my trusty AIO, and then proceeded to dough-in. After accomplishing this task, I wondered why my malt pipe and screens were still sitting beside the mash tum on the outside of the AIO.

Don’t do that.

 

[lumpher]

At least now the mystery is solved. Otherwise, every time I see this thread in the future I would have been scratching my head.

 

[Broothru]

Brewed there, drank that? (jk)

Became a first attempt at NA brewing!

 

[JohnDBrewer]

Hate it when that happens.

 

[Broothru]

Hate it when that happens.

It wasn’t so much the “first attempt at LA/NA beer” that hurt. It was having to siphon off the wort/strike water, salvage as much grain as possible, clean the AIO, scrub the scorched grain off the electrical elements, and then reassemble the whole contraption and restart the mash. Made for a pretty long brew day.

 

[beren]

Haha. I either had my mill gap open or I forgot to check the gap and got super low eff once before. Even the same as my old mill it was lower eff so I tightened it up to 0.030 and it’s where I expect.

 

[AlexKay]

yeah...pretty sure I mashed WHOLE GRAIN...

“yeah, you think you’re cool’s because you brew ‘all grain’ … let me tell you what REAL brewers do …”

 

[worlddivides]

This thread did get me wondering, though. What if you WANTED to put some portion of unmilled grain in your mash? For example, I already have all the grains for my next brew milled and ready to go, but the place I bought the grains from also sent me 100 grams of a really aromatic malt as a sample of a new product they're getting in, and it just so happens that those grains would go really well in the recipe. Adding it would make it 2.9% of the grain bill, but I already have all the fermentables I need. I could just put it in my blender and get it "milled" that way (I do BIAB, so that wouldn't be a worry), but I could get my current estimated OG and FG by adding it without milling it, right? I have to assume it would add flavor and color since there are plenty of grains that you can steep without milling. Hm...

 

[mashdar]

This thread did get me wondering, though. What if you WANTED to put some portion of unmilled grain in your mash?

You'd get a bunch of unconverted starch, I suspect. Maybe if you removed the whole kernels and then did a normal mash afterwards?

Cold extraction is a way to leave the starch and take the color/flavor. I've enjoyed the results mixing a cold extract with a small normal mash for 1-3% ABV. But people have had mixed results.

 

[worlddivides]

You'd get a bunch of unconverted starch, I suspect. Maybe if you removed the whole kernels and then did a normal mash afterwards?

Cold extraction is a way to leave the starch and take the color/flavor. I've enjoyed the results mixing a cold extract with a small normal mash for 1-3% ABV. But people have had mixed results.

Well, my idea would be just doing this for 2.9% of the grain bill (hence why I said "some portion" and not "the whole mash"). And my inspiration for thinking about this was that I was thinking of just adding the flavor (and color too) of a small sample I received to a recipe I made (which would result in 97.1% of it being milled and 2.9% of it being unmilled). But the more I think of it, even if it adds flavor and no fermentables, milling it would add more flavor, so if I do decide to add it, I should probably just use my blender to turn it into a powder (since BIAB solves any issues of grinding up the malt too much). Right now I'm kind of leaning towards just saving it for a future recipe where I consider that from the very beginning since I expect it should be good for at least a year.

 

[mashdar]

I'd consider a 3% drop in OG basically undetectable : )

That's 1.0485 instead of 1.050

 

[worlddivides]

I'd consider a 3% drop in OG basically undetectable : )

That's 1.0485 instead of 1.050

Right. It might only be a 0.1% or 0.2% ABV difference at most, so at least alcohol and body-wise it'd definitely be undetectable. And honestly at 3%, any difference in flavor would also likely be negligible.

 

[IslandLizard]

I have to assume it would add flavor and color since there are plenty of grains that you can steep without milling.

What grains can (do?) you steep without milling and get something out of it?
The husk has very little flavor, but may add some color if very dark or perhaps smoked.

But at only 3% of the grain bill, I doubt it would be noticeable unless you crush it before mashing.

It's the endosperm we're after... and that demands crushing before mashing or steeping.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I have to assume it [mashing with uncrushed malts] would add flavor and color [...]

A 60 min cold steep of the uncrushed malts might be interesting.

In my explorations of cold steeping crushed crystal / roasted malts, I found that after about 30 minutes in a 60 min cold steep, "almost all" of the color and gravity points were extracted. (Note that I'm comparing extraction rate over time, not "cold steep" vs "hot steep").

 

[worlddivides]

What grains can (do?) you steep without milling and get something out of it?
The husk has very little flavor, but may add some color if very dark or perhaps smoked.

I've never personally done it, but I was just remembering things I've read online about some people having steeped unmilled grains in the mash for extremely potent flavors like peated malts (though you can think it'd be obviously easier to just mill them and use a smaller amount). I'm pretty sure I've also seen it for some pretty dark roasted malts too, though peat is the main one that comes to mind.