failed mash. 12# grain and OG is only 1.034 WTF?

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odie

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I have no idea what happened...making a DIPA and I'm shocked by the OG.

11# 2-row
12 oz C-70/80
8oz flaked wheat

BIAB, mashed with about 6 gal at 150' Let it mash about 10 hours will at work. recirc pump and digital temp control. Came home, lifted the basket and sparged with another 2ish gallons until 6.5 gal wort collected. Brewed it up and checked gravity when it went to the fermenter. 5 gallons at 1.034??? It should have been in the upper 1.060-1.070 range.

I'm thinking the paper scale strip inside the hydrometer had slipped so I grab my refractometer...same same...test hydrometer with plain water...1.000

well, I was going to add some DME but I had this can of old LME from a friend, so I used that. It only bumped my OG to 1.047 It was marked best by 2014 and was pretty dark for a light lager.

PH too high? I've never checked my PH until now. Mash PH was 6.5 about 20 minutes in. Ending PH was 5.8 before mash out. House tap water with water softener.

Thinking to skip the dry hoping on this one since gravity is so low.

1.2oz magnum @ 60 min
1.0oz magnum @5 min
1.0oz hallertau @ 5 min

Dry hop is this but I think I should just pass since ABV is gonna be so low.
.67oz magnum
.67oz hallertau
.76 oz CTZ

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PH too high? I've never checked my PH until now. Mash PH was 6.5 about 20 minutes in. Ending PH was 5.8 before mash out.
Yeah that's super high, definitely contributed to what you are seeing.

Also if I were you I would check calibration of the mash thermometer by measuring ice water at 32 F and boiling water at whatever the boiling point is at your elevation above sea level (it can make a difference).
 
Mash PH was 6.5 about 20 minutes in. Ending PH was 5.8 before mash out. House tap water with water softener.
Are you on a well or on a municipal water supply?
Do you know what your water softener puts back into your water?

Compared to previous brewing sessions, could there be a sudden mineral increase in your (untreated) tap water?
Does it taste salty?

You may want to use RO water from a machine (~39 cents a gallon last time I checked) for brewing, until this aberration is resolved.

Or consider buying a (small) RO system. That can also supply low mineral water for drinking and cooking too. ;)
 
Are you on a well or on a municipal water supply?
Do you know what your water softener puts back into your water?

Compared to previous brewing sessions, could there be a sudden mineral increase in your (untreated) tap water?
Does it taste salty?

You may want to use RO water from a machine (~39 cents a gallon last time I checked) for brewing, until this aberration is resolved.

Or consider buying a (small) RO system. That can also supply low mineral water for drinking and cooking too.

;)
city water. sometimes I use the softened water, sometimes I fill from a bypassed faucet. either way, I have always gotten solid mash conversions.

my water does not taste salty. well, not that I've noticed. Carbon filter at the softener and fridges have filters too.

30 years of using city tap water in various states and countries and never checking PH, hardness or anything...never had a failed mash.

It's perplexing.
 
what about the dry hop schedule? should I just skip it casue gavity is so low?
 
Maybe just lighten up the dry hop amount vs. skipping it? I dry hopped 2 oz into a 1.048 a couple months ago 4 days out from cold crashing. Granted it was a lager, but still turned out pretty damn good.

However...will also confess that I'm reducing that to 1.5 oz this next time, .5 of which is Cryo just to experiment. Different hops too, so maybe not such a great way to experiment, but I digress.
 
At that high of a pH you might consider just starting over. There will be much stronger Maillard reactions in the boil, darkening your wort - combined with the extracted tannins the wort will be really low quanlity.

The wort pH should be lowered before boiling with hops.

The bad tasting wort may be masked by the hops and the Mr. Beer extract. (There's a joke in there somewhere...)
 
Really weird. Temperature correct. No problems with the water. Seems like it would have to be the grain. Is it possible some bad sacks made it to the brewery, but they mixed them with good ones when they brewed and still got conversion? I don't know if malsters screw up or not.

I don't see how the pH can be the issue. It would be strange for your water supply's pH to suddenly change.
 
I suppose it's possible that you didn't have enough calcium in the mash. I personally would have augmented the gravity with table sugar before I put 10 year old LME anywhere near that beer.
well...missing the target by so many points...nothing to lose by throwing the old LME at it. I was gonna use it anyway outta curiosity...

it was already mashed and brewed...costs me nothing at that point to let it ride out as see what it makes. I just dumped on a yeast cake that had beer racked off an hour earlier.
 
It would be strange for your water supply's pH to suddenly change.
It's not the pH, it's the hardness or softness, aka "alkalinity," of the water that resists change of pH upon adding the mash ingredients, or any acid, for that matter.

My guess would be the OP's water supply has become suddenly much harder, possibly due to his city's water sourcing. A call to the water department may shine some light on that.

Otherwise, it could be the grist... or that can of 10+ year old LME having become very alkaline.
 
10 year old LME? Got to hand it to you. That's ballsy af. Looking forward to reading the results.
So no one is asking...why would anyone keep LME that old? Was it a gift from a deceased parent or what?

I can't judge. I have eaten some seriously old food. Age is just a number.

Anyway, the LME can't be the problem, apart from being poisoned and off flavors, because it was added to fix the low gravity.
 
Good questions.

You know what's going to happen. Odie is going to come back in a few weeks saying this is one of the better beers he's brewed. These type of stories always end up that way.

Off topic:

About a decade ago, my cousin ordered this brew kit from Northern. I can't remember the name of the kit, but when he pull the sack of crushed grains out on brew day, they spilled all over his kitchen floor. He scooped everything up, so saved most of it. He also has cats. Cats shed hair. Needless to say, there was some cat hair that got swept up with the grains. We decided to press on and brew. After all, the boil would kill what the heat from the mash didn't and it was going to be filtered before going into the fermenter anyways. That turned out to be one of his best ipas.

I had a housefly get into one of my sanitized empty fermenters on one brew day. I didn't notice it until the batch had hit high krausen and saw his bug eyed, six legged, dead ass staring at me through the mist of krausen that formed around him. I almost dumped it, but saw it to the end. That beer turned out fine.


If there's one thing I've learned in this hobby, no matter how bad the f-ups are, see the batch all the way through. Sometimes we take Charlie P's "RDWHAHB" for granted.
 
My first beer was called Strongarm Ale. I was using a bucket fermenter, and the grommet from the bubbler fell in after I had neurotically santized everything. Not knowing any better, I hosed my entire arm with BTF solution and reached in and grabbed the grommet from the bottom of the wort. The beer was really good, however, and I got a good name out of it.
 
It's not the pH, it's the hardness or softness, aka "alkalinity," of the water that resists change of pH upon adding the mash ingredients, or any acid, for that matter.

My guess would be the OP's water supply has become suddenly much harder, possibly due to his city's water sourcing. A call to the water department may shine some light on that.

Otherwise, it could be the grist... or that can of 10+ year old LME having become very alkaline.
water was post-water softener. sometimes I bypass the softener for more mineral content but this beer got softened water. Local water supply is pretty "hard". Most texas water is. Primary source is local lake which is fed by Nueces and other rivers. Comes down from the hill country. Limestone river beds. A secondary source is a lake to the east between Victoria and Houston. That is not limestone river beds. Pretty sure local water is not sourced from any aquifers. Those would be very hard I think.

I've always heard non softened water was preferable due to some desirable mineral content. I guess unless your water is too hard.

city water report states Hardness 213 ppm, Alkalinity 143ppm, calcium 76ppm....lots of other ppm things...not sure what to target
 
Seems like it would have to be the grain. Is it possible some bad sacks made it to the brewery, but they mixed them with good ones when they brewed and still got conversion? I don't know if malsters screw up or not.
2-row came from a single huge sack...like a one ton sack or something...was suspended from a gantry crane. made 2 beers from same grain a couple weeks earlier...zero mash issues...OG came out on target
 
water was post-water softener. sometimes I bypass the softener for more mineral content but this beer got softened water. Local water supply is pretty "hard". Most texas water is. Primary source is local lake which is fed by Nueces and other rivers. Comes down from the hill country. Limestone river beds. A secondary source is a lake to the east between Victoria and Houston. That is not limestone river beds. Pretty sure local water is not sourced from any aquifers. Those would be very hard I think.

I've always heard non softened water was preferable due to some desirable mineral content. I guess unless your water is too hard.

city water report states Hardness 213 ppm, Alkalinity 143ppm, calcium 76ppm....lots of other ppm things...not sure what to target
Last Spring SWMBO’d and I spent a few weeks in the Hill Country visiting breweries and wineries, and actually camped for a few days at Jester King just outside of Austin. I’m not sure of their aquifer or water source (maybe the Freol River?), but their beers were fantastic.
 
Jester King just outside of Austin. I’m not sure of their aquifer or water source (maybe the Freol River?), but their beers were fantastic.
They get their water from the Colorado River (not THAT Colorado River... the 1 that flows through Austin). Jester King makes some really good beers. They know their stuff.

As for the low OG, I agree it IS perplexing. Odie, you've already shot down all the reasons I can think of as to why it's so low other than just some fluke with the water that particular day.
 
I have no idea what happened...making a DIPA and I'm shocked by the OG.

Mash PH was 6.5 about 20 minutes in. Ending PH was 5.8

BIAB, mashed with about 6 gal at 150' Let it mash about 10 hours will at work.

At 149 °F (65 °C), beta-amylase is denatured within 40–60 minutes and alpha-amylase activity will cease after 2 hours at 153 °F (67 °C).
So, after a point, extra mash time won't help efficiency much. Unless more sugars trapped in grain, get released.

Brulosophy experiment comparing IPA made with standard mash pH (5.17) vs high pH (6.39), @15min, both @154°F.
Found end of mash pH: standard pH 5.16, high pH 5.73, but barely any differences in OG / FG, and they weren't distinguished at taste testing.
exBEERiment | Impact of High Mash pH
Their high pH batch, had almost identical initial and final pH to yours. Which suggests, pH wasn't your problem.

Is your temperature monitored near top of basket, or near base (or where its heated)? Maybe allowing hot(ter) spots.
I used to get temperature overshoots, going way too high at base (on electric AIO with sensor near top of malt pipe), for a while after any mash temp step. Faster recirculation, and a lower mash heating power, reduces any overshoot.
With the large overshoots, beta-amylase must have been part denatured. As I often ended up with full bodied beer, having higher FG than expected.

For most lighter bodied beers, I now start the mash at 64°C (147F) for 50min. And reckon there's enough small base overshoots to get the alpha-amylase going (it works from around 65°C). Then an alpha-amylase rest at 71°C, for 10min (after ~10min for heating).
 
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Is your temperature monitored near top of basket, or near base (or where its heated)? Maybe allowing hot(ter) spots.
I used to get temperature overshoots, going way too high at base (on electric AIO with sensor near top of malt pipe), for a while after any mash temp step. Faster recirculation, and a lower mash heating power, reduces any overshoot.
With the large overshoots, beta-amylase must have been part denatured. As I often ended up with full bodied beer, having higher FG than expected.
That^ can certainly be an issue.
Then the high mash pH exacerbates the case.
 
Unless this is the first time the OP brewed a pale ale or using a different mashing technique, I still wonder why he never encountered this issue before. Something must have changed drastically, and suddenly.
 
My guess would be the OP's water supply has become suddenly much harder, possibly due to his city's water sourcing. A call to the water department may shine some light on that.
I second the suggestion to call your water department. My local city water changes significantly between winter and summer, because the water department avoids using the wells that need expensive pre-treatment during the (lower demand) winter season. Given that CC's water is all surface water, a possible culprit might be a rainfall event in the week(s) before brewing? In any case, I imagine the water department tests daily and could tell you if there had been an aberration.
 
Since you never had noticeable issues before, I'd definitely contact your water provider for some insights on recent changes in your water composition.

To remove much of the water guesswork, @Buckeye_Hydro can very likely set you up with a suitable RO system that fits your needs without breaking the bank.

Or just buy (bulk) RO water for pale ales or when needed, as I mentioned in post #6.
 
At 149 °F (65 °C), beta-amylase is denatured within 40–60 minutes and alpha-amylase activity will cease after 2 hours at 153 °F (67 °C).
Do you have a reference for this? I have read papers that indicate enzyme lifetimes are strongly affected by the conditions under which they are measured. For example lifetimes measured in buffer solutions are shorter than lifetimes measured in actual mashes. I'd like to understand what the measurement conditions were that gave rise to these values.
For most lighter bodied beers, I now start the mash at 64°C (147F) for 50min. And reckon there's enough small base overshoots to get the alpha-amylase going (it works from around 65°C). Then an alpha-amylase rest at 71°C, for 10min (after ~10min for heating).
It is a common misconception that the enzymes in malt only start working after a certain temperature is reached in the mash. But, the biological reasons that the enzymes exist is to convert starch to sugar in the germinating seeds, so they can grow enough to sprout leaves and start photosynthesis. Barley can germinate and grow at temps almost down to freezing:

In order for germination and initial growth to occur, the enzymes need to be active, so they must be active at much lower than mash temps. There is also lots of empirical evidence that alpha amylase is active at typical fermentation temperatures, as adding alpha amylase to a stuck fermentation will often restart fermentation and allow a lower FG (depending on the cause of the stuck fermentation.) So, all of the enzymes are active from below room temp, and their speed of action increases with increasing temperature. At high enough temperatures, the enzymes start to thermally degrade (denature), and mash schedules are ideally set to allow the enzymes to complete their work before they get denatured.

Brew on :mug:
 
That extract says Mr. Beer on it. And it says Classic American Light lager. I can’t see the size of the extract but those are normally smaller cans made for the people who own the Mr. Beer plastic barrel. I haven’t seen Mr. Beer for a long time, I think they come in a couple different sizes. Or used to.

Its probably not a 3.3 lb can like we would normally see. So thats why it didn’t raise the gravity maybe as much as you would have expected.

Its also not plain extract. Its pre-hopped extract, basically a kit to add water to for that style. Though granted American Light Lager is not going to add a ton of hops it will increase your ibu slightly.

Looks like you were in a good range to just call it a pale ale or maybe an amber ale.
 
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If you’ve never seen Mr. Beer here it is. Its basically a 2 gallon plastic barrel and they just have you boil some water, dump in your extract, pour it in the fermenter after it dissolves and add yeast. To their credit they do sell you sanitizer and tell you to sanitize everything. They also sell cheap plastic beer bottles.

Anything that gets people started homebrewing is a good thing. But its comical to read the 5 star reviews from people posting a picture of a glass of their light American lager that looks like ESB or Amber Ale. And these are people using “fresh” extract.

https://www.mrbeer.com/american-lager-starter-kit
 
UPDATE....possible issue

Well, I went and brewed a dopplebock yesterday. I had already pulled the grain bill a couple weeks ago, the same time I pulled the DIPA grain bill.

I got ready to mash in and when I opened the grain bucket and was ready to dump it in...I observed that I had not yet crushed the grain. it was just set aside whole so as to not have crushed grain sitting several days.

I'm thinking on the DIPA, I mashed in early morning before work, it was dark and I probably just grabbed the grain bucket and dumped. Since I pulled the grain bill at least a week earlier, I probably didn't crush it yet and simply forgot.

Usually I pull grain the night before and crush right away since I will mash in early next morning. On the DIPA and Dopplebock...I was gonna brew like a week or so later, so left it unmilled until brew day.

The dopplebock, after crushing, mashed just fine.
 
UPDATE....possible issue

Well, I went and brewed a dopplebock yesterday. I had already pulled the grain bill a couple weeks ago, the same time I pulled the DIPA grain bill.

I got ready to mash in and when I opened the grain bucket and was ready to dump it in...I observed that I had not yet crushed the grain. it was just set aside whole so as to not have crushed grain sitting several days.

I'm thinking on the DIPA, I mashed in early morning before work, it was dark and I probably just grabbed the grain bucket and dumped. Since I pulled the grain bill at least a week earlier, I probably didn't crush it yet and simply forgot.

Usually I pull grain the night before and crush right away since I will mash in early next morning. On the DIPA and Dopplebock...I was gonna brew like a week or so later, so left it unmilled until brew day.

The dopplebock, after crushing, mashed just fine.
Well, that would surely provide a plausible explanation!

Maybe you could ask the mods to relocate to the “Don’t Do That” thread. Confession is good for the soul. BTDT.
 
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