• Please visit and share your knowledge at our sister communities:
  • If you have not, please join our official Homebrewing Facebook Group!

    Homebrewing Facebook Group

EZ Water Calculator 3.0

Homebrew Talk

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
TH, EZ water spreadsheet help us to calculate how many salts we should add to adjust our water. So, some salts have H2O on their formation (hydrates).

My doubt is: should I adjust the salt mass to considere this hidratation? I suspect that mass is to pure component (CaSO4, MgSO4, CaCl2....) and when I measure, for example 3 g of CaSO4 this mass is not CaSO4, but CaSO4.2H2O. Make sense my doubt?

Thanks,

Fabiano
 
Hey guys, I'm brewing a brown ale this weekend using victory and quick oats (latter being lightly oven toasted). Early in this thread, victory is categorized as a roasted/toasted malt and oats as base/2 Row. Is this still the consensus with EZ Water calculator? Thanks in advance.
 
My doubt is: should I adjust the salt mass to considere this hidratation? I suspect that mass is to pure component (CaSO4, MgSO4, CaCl2....) and when I measure, for example 3 g of CaSO4 this mass is not CaSO4, but CaSO4.2H2O. Make sense my doubt?

Yes, very much so, at least with CaCl2. Epsom salts a gypsum are quite stable with respect to water of hydration at CaSO4.2H2O and MgSO4.7H2O and spreadsheets should be set up for those levels of water content. CaCl2 is, quite conversely, very unstable in this regard and will pick up so much water that eventually it becomes a syrup. Programs should call for CaCl2.0H2O for that reason and then it is up to the brewer to determine how much water is in his calcium chloride, or rather the other way round. He should make a solution and determine how much CaCl2 is in it. This is pretty easy to do, fortunately, by measuring the specific gravity of the solution as described in the sticky at the top of this topic.

It is relatively easy to see what form of the salt a spreadsheet uses. Tell the spreadsheet you are adding 100 mg/L of a salt to 1 L of water and calculate the concentration of calcium for CaCl2.0H2O, CaCl2.1H2O, CaCl2.2H2O etc. When you find a match between what you calculate and what the spreadsheet calculates you have determined the hydration form.
 
NaCl does not pick up appreciable water of hydration.

I meant how can we add it to the EZ Water calculator? I see it's not included while other water calculators do have it. I would like to add chloride without adding sulfate.

I'm very new to water chemistry so please correct me if I'm speaking incorrectly. On my next brew I would like to target a water profile.
 
I meant how can we add it to the EZ Water calculator? I see it's not included while other water calculators do have it. I would like to add chloride without adding sulfate.

I'm very new to water chemistry so please correct me if I'm speaking incorrectly. On my next brew I would like to target a water profile.

You can't with EZ Water. Just use one of the others to get your ppm estimate. Brewers Friend calculator conveniently converts grams or ounces to tsp measurements for you. You don't want much NaCl, and basically 1/2 tsp tossed into the boil will do it for you. This assumes you're building from RO/distilled of course.
 
I would like to add chloride without adding sulfate.
Then I'd recommend adding CaCl2 as adding more Ca is better in most cases than adding more Sodium (Na) from adding NaCl.

Not to speak for the author of EzWaterCalc, but NaCl was removed because generally speaking Sodium (Na) is something we want to keep low.

Ka
 
Modest sodium levels are OK in many styles. I add sodium to almost every brew I create. In pale styles, keeping sodium below 40 ppm is recommended. But in darker styles, I've found that you can let that level rise up to 70 ppm. If EZ doesn't have table salt as an ingredient, you might want to move to better software.

By the way, high calcium level is actually detrimental to yeast performance. Try and keep calcium at a modest level and your beer will be better. You do want at least 40 ppm Ca in the mash to take out oxalate, but you don't really want much more. Calcium is NOT needed by yeast. The malt supplies ALL the calcium that the yeast need and you don't absolutely have to add it to your brewing water.
 
... you might want to move to better software.
Gee, I wonder what you could be referring to? :rolleyes:

Martin, I know you don't mean any harm, but please understand that most people on forums consider competition posting that someone's product is "not good" in their official thread is generally considered poor taste.

Kal
 
Modest sodium levels are OK in many styles. I add sodium to almost every brew I create. In pale styles, keeping sodium below 40 ppm is recommended. But in darker styles, I've found that you can let that level rise up to 70 ppm. If EZ doesn't have table salt as an ingredient, you might want to move to better software.

By the way, high calcium level is actually detrimental to yeast performance. Try and keep calcium at a modest level and your beer will be better. You do want at least 40 ppm Ca in the mash to take out oxalate, but you don't really want much more. Calcium is NOT needed by yeast. The malt supplies ALL the calcium that the yeast need and you don't absolutely have to add it to your brewing water.

Thank you sir for the excellent brewing software. I recently tried Bru'n Water and my beers are benefitting from it.
 
but please understand that most people on forums consider competition posting that someone's product is "not good" in their official thread is generally considered poor taste.

I don't think we should keep from the readership that all of the available programs out there have severe limitations. They cannot do the impossible, the authors aren't aware of all the capabilities of their vehicles (spreadsheets) and most don't understand the chemistry fully. Even if they did a 1% increase in accuracy may have a software cost many times that. Were I to state or imply that my software (especially if I charged money for it) is free of all such limitations that would indeed be in poor taste. But as I don't offer any software, free or otherwise, I feel free to point out the limitations of the existing programs without feeling guilty of exhibiting poor taste but i will never say any one is better than any other.
 
I would have thought that starting water pH would be worth being able to input if it is available. Why is there no box for this?
 
Starting pH of the water doesn't matter. Ignore it. How the water reacts to the various grains, acids, and salts you add is what matters. The goal is to achieve a mash pH that helps convert the starches to sugars. How easily your water's pH drops as you add the various grains, acids and so forth is a function of the residual alkalinity, not the starting pH.

For more info, see my step by step water adjustment guide (it'll walk you through using uses EZ Water).

Cheers!

Kal
 
It is (or should be) obvious that in order to accurately determine the amount of acid we need to add to a brewing water to bring it to a desired mash pH we must know the acid/base properties of that water. In the waters that brewers use the acid base properties are those of the water itself and the carbonic acid derived species (bicarbonate, carbonate) dissolved in it. We need to know the total carbo (carbonic, bicarbonate, carbonate) per liter and the pH. In the laboratory we measure alkalinity and use that to determine the total carbo. The alkalinity measurement is a titration and so the sample pH is determined during the alkalinity measurement. As it is needed to determine total carbo and, with that, do acid calculations, it is reported. The amount of acid required to establish a particular pH is given by the difference in charges on water molecules and carbo ions at the desired pH and at the original sample pH. These charges are a function of pH and thus pH is often referred to by water chemists as 'the master variable'. A robust spreadsheet will (and a couple do) require the input of the water's pH. The math is at https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/calculating-bicarbonate-and-carbonate.473408/.

If you take one of those robust spreadsheets, put in some alkalinity level and then calculate the amount of acid needed to reach some typical desired mash pH as a fraction of the alkalinity (remember that alkalinity is the amount of acid which must be added to a 1L sample to bring its pH to 4.5 (ISO protocol) though that number is, in North America, usually multiplied by 50) you would get a curve like this one:

AcidReq.jpg


Strong dependence on pH is clear as we approach the pK's of carbonic acid at 6.38 and 10.38. No surprise there. But few of us have brewing water sources with pH that high or low. In the more typical source water pH range the acid requirement is about 90% of the alkalinity. Thus if you have water that comes to you at pH 8.5 you with alkalinity 100 ppm you can quickly see that you are going to need about 0.9*(100/50) = 1.8 mEq of acid per liter of water to be acidified to a mash pH of around 5.5. Thus when someone says that water pH is not a factor it's clear he doesn't understand the chemistry and yet he is not that far off! In the typical range of waters we deal with the dependency on mash pH is a weak one. This fact allows spreadsheet authors to put out products that don't need to contain all the math mentioned in the Sticky linked above. While the math isn't that hairy and, to my way of thinking, anyway, one of the main reasons to use a spreadsheet is that hairy math can be hidden from, but still be available to the user.

Thus the popular spreadsheets do not do the full carbo calculation. You can be 100% certain of that if they do not ask for liquor pH. This is probably because of inertia as much as ignorance of how to do it. When most of these were written I'm guessing the creators did not understand the chemistry but at this point in time they probably do as it has certainly been discussed here and elsewhere extensively and the formulae are certainly online in several places (including the Sticky here). But to go back and rework a spreadsheet that is fairly complex because of the breadth of things it covers is not a trivial task.

A couple of other things should be pointed out. In a typical mash involving water with alkalinity of 1.5 mEq/L or so at pH 7 the water's proton deficit (acid reqirement) calculated as discussed here might be 20 or so mEq while the proton deficit of the malts might be 4 times that. Is, in such a case, a major rework of the water portion of a spreadsheet to render the water component of the acid requirement more accurate justified? To an accuracy freak like me, yes. To the 'better is the enemy of good enough' crowd, no. In this same regard most of the popular spreadsheets use primitive models of malt acid/base properties such that their predictions of mash pH can really only be used for guidance. The robust ones give much more accurate predictions if one has accurate malt data but one doesn't in general and so they really aren't that much better. Thus you could easily argue that errors from poor modeling of malts swamp errors from poor modeling of the water.

To sumarize: you are right. Any spreadsheet should ask you for the water's pH. But given the other limitations of them the fact that they don't really doesn't matter that much, especially if you water's pH falls between, say, 7 and 9.5. You can sail on with any of the spreadsheets you fancy, if you are in this pH range, confident that the error caused by failure to consider source water pH, is small relative to other errors.
 
Last edited:
How easily your water's pH drops as you add the various grains, acids and so forth is a function of the residual alkalinity, not the starting pH.

Of course it depends on pH (see No. 410) just not that much over a restricted range of source pH's which happens to, fortunately, be the range into which many, but not all by any means, brewers source liquor falls. What it doesn't depend on is residual alkalinity. Residual alkalinity is a good means for comparing waters in the sense that it enables one to do back of the envelope calculations on how much acid is likely to be needed if one is brewing beers similar to the ones that Kolbach was working with when he observed that at knockout It seems that 3.5 moles of calcium neutralizes 1 equivalent of alkalinity. Given that pH continues to drop in the kettle from, among other things, precipitation of phosphate it is clear that all the calcium based pH reduction does not occur in the mash tun or, IOW, that it takes more than 3.5 moles of calcium to cancel 1 equivalent of alkalinity in the mash tun. When calculating mash pH we tot up the proton deficits and surfeits and find the pH that balances them. We obviously include a term for calcium but know that its denominator should be greater than 3.5. How much greater we don't know but usually use 7 - 10. Thus even when considering mash we don't use RA and I had long conversation with John Palmer to the effect that he should not use it as one of the fundamental principles of water treatment in his book. But it's his book - not mine.

The main point is that your statement doesn't address mash or wort. It is about water. pH reduction in the water has nothing to do with the amount of calcium present and thus the RA unless you are so supersaturated WRT CaCO3 or use so much phosphoric acid for the acidification that precipitation of chalk or apatite is initiated when calcium is added. Thus the way in which your water's pH drops depends on alkalinity and pH. Period. As a consequence a sparge water acidification calculation that used RA instead of (total) alkalinity would, depending on the RA of the water, be in error.

If you want to know how to estimate mash pH see the sticky referenced in No. 410. I tried to convince John to put this stuff in is his book (I mention that because the material at the link you posted references it) but he wouldn't. He did put in the Q(pH) curve for carbo and phospho in, however. You will not find RA used anywhere in these calculations though alkalinity and pH are.
 
Last edited:
I should have said:

"How easily your water's pH drops as you add the various grains, acids and so forth is more of a function of the residual alkalinity, and less the starting pH."

I recommend brewers add salts to hit the flavour profile they're interested in, measure the resulting mash + salts with a pH meter to see where they're at, then adjust as needed (usually down with acid). Trying to guess resulting pH with EZWater doesn't (IMHO) work great.

Cheers!

Kal
 
I think you are still missing the point that the water's pH drop isn't a function of the residual alkalinity at all but rather of the alkalinity (strongly dependent) and the pH (weak dependence within the golden pH band). The pH drop in a mash depends on alkalinity of the water, the alkalinity of the grains and a term calculated from the liquor's calcium concentration which, when subtracted from the alkalinity gives something like the residual alkalinity but it is not the residual alkalinity.

I too advocate limited reliance on calculations and only for guidance. Test and full mash measurements should determine a brewers acid additions.
 
I should have said:

I recommend brewers add salts to hit the flavour profile they're interested in, measure the resulting mash + salts with a pH meter to see where they're at, then adjust as needed (usually down with acid). Trying to guess resulting pH with EZWater doesn't (IMHO) work great.

Cheers!

Kal
I assume you are talking about the full mash and not a test mash here? I might be wrong, but wouldn't it be too late to adjust the pH downwards with acid after you have measured your actual mash pH? I mean, it would be like 20 mins in at least and at that point, a lot of the conversion and any 'bad' things from a high(er) pH would have happened.

My understanding is that you should measure it, learn from it, and then adjust the next time you brew same recipe. That, or do a test mash first.
 
I assume you are talking about the full mash and not a test mash here?
Correct.
I might be wrong, but wouldn't it be too late to adjust the pH downwards with acid after you have measured your actual mash pH?
That has not been my experience.

Once I know how a grist behaves and how much (if any) acids I need to add after mashing in with whatever salts I've added, I don't need to measure pH on subsequent batches to know how much acid to add (my water's very stable). Instead, I add the acid at the same time as everything else. These subsequent batches haven't tasted any different from the initial batch.

YMMV of course.

Cheers!

Kal
 
Correct.

That has not been my experience.

Once I know how a grist behaves and how much (if any) acids I need to add after mashing in with whatever salts I've added, I don't need to measure pH on subsequent batches to know how much acid to add (my water's very stable). Instead, I add the acid at the same time as everything else. These subsequent batches haven't tasted any different from the initial batch.

YMMV of course.

Cheers!

Kal
Seems like the question was wouldn't it be too late to adjust with acid after finding out 20-25 minutes after mash-in as the ill effects of a high ph would have already affected the mash. I just had this experience yesterday where the recommended acid additions from multiple water calculators were anywhere from 1.5 to 5.5 ml. I chose to start low so ph wouldn't be too low to start with. First 15 min check shows ph is way to high (at least for the recipe I was making) and by the time I slowly adjust down (3 incremental additions) to the correct ph level the mash is 45 minutes old.
 
Seems like the question was wouldn't it be too late to adjust with acid after finding out 20-25 minutes after mash-in as the ill effects of a high ph would have already affected the mash.
Yes. I understood that to be the question. My experience has been that it hasn't been too late. That said, I don't wait 20-25 minutes before measuring pH. Way back when I first started doing water adjustments/measuring pH (more than 10 years ago), I had similar concerns and measured pH ~5 minutes after mashing in with grains/salts, then measured again 60-90 mins later and didn't notice much difference. So today I mash in with grains/salts, measure pH after stirring for a few mins, and add acid (as required). It's always worked for me and produced fantastic beers.

Kal
 
Seems like the question was wouldn't it be too late to adjust with acid after finding out 20-25 minutes after mash-in as the ill effects of a high ph would have already affected the mash. I just had this experience yesterday where the recommended acid additions from multiple water calculators were anywhere from 1.5 to 5.5 ml. I chose to start low so ph wouldn't be too low to start with. First 15 min check shows ph is way to high (at least for the recipe I was making) and by the time I slowly adjust down (3 incremental additions) to the correct ph level the mash is 45 minutes old.

Some of the reasons for adjusting mash pH are:
  • Improved enzyme activity during the mash, leading to better conversion of starches to sugars
  • Lower pH in the finished wort which improves yeast health during fermentation, and also inhibits bacteria growth
  • Improved hop extraction rates in the boil
  • Better protein and polyphenol precipitation both during the cold break and post fermentation
  • Improved clarity in the finished beer with reduced chill haze
  • Improved flavor and clarity stability as the beer ages
  • Decreased or no tannin extraction
Another consideration is that the mash is a natural system that takes time to react and stabilize.

Given those facts one may conclude that, if the pH is not properly adjusted upon dough in, you *might* have:
  • decreased conversion of starches to sugars
  • decreased hop extraction
  • decreased cold break
  • increased tannin extraction
The extent to which each of this items is affected is up for debate as I'm not aware of any scientific study of real time mash pH adjustment, save the observations of the brewer.

A better reason not to react to mash pH measurements is that the mash, being a natural system, takes time to react and pulls itself towards equilibrium, adding acids or bases during this time simply prolongs this stabilization and creates a ping/pong effect.
 
Last edited:
Given those facts one may conclude that, if the pH is not properly adjusted upon dough in, you *might* have:
I must be missing something, how do you propose to have the ph properly adjusted upon dough in unless through trial and error you know exactly what additions to make before hand? I am assuming dough in is the initial mixing of grain and water.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top