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EZ Water Calculator 3.0

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-TH-

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EZ Water Calculator 3.0 is now available:
http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/

v3.0 calculates mash pH differently now (using distilled water mash ph's of each grain in the grain bill among other things) and I think you'll find it considerably more accurate in predicting mash PH.

Also it has been rearranged a bit including separate sections for "adjust mash ph down" and "adjust mash ph up".

Also adjustment with slaked lime has been added.

Here's a screen shot:
 

wildwest450

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Nice work TH, i'm a big fan of the simplicity of these calculators.:mug:

_
 

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I plugged a previously brewed and measured really dark imperial stout into it and it was way more accurate, thanks! TH 2.0 predicted 4.73, TH 3.0 predicted 5.75, and measured was 5.62.
 

datamike

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Looks good!

I plugged a few recipes in and surprisingly, your calculator is quite close to the actual readings - generally within .05.

How about a field for phosphoric acid in the next revision?

Michael
 

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TH - If I'm seeing the calculations properly it looks like you are using the distilled water mash pH of the crystal malts rather than the acidity as recommended in Kai's paper (I could be reading Kai's paper incorrectly though). Though utilizing the distilled water pH would seem to make perfect sense to me. Any thoughts on that?

Also, the distilled water pH for your calculator comes up as 4.92 for crystal 60 rather than 4.66 reported in Kai's paper. Did you do some separate experimentations to come up with your values as well?

Any thoughts on what to use for Aromatic, Brown Malt, Honey Malt, Victory, etc...? Essentially many of the specialty malts not listed specifically on your spreadsheet. Should we be using Base - Other?

Sorry for all the questions. Love the new look. I'm incorporating it into my brew workbook with some minor adjustments. Looking forward to working with it.

cp
 

ajdelange

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TH - If I'm seeing the calculations properly it looks like you are using the distilled water mash pH of the crystal malts rather than the acidity as recommended in Kai's paper
Acidity could be used and I have proposed taking it one step further i.e. modeling the details of the acidity as a function of pH (finding a set of pK's which fit the titration curve for each malt) but in this case it appears that a simple linear combination of DI pH's serves quite well and is certainly much simpler both in terms of the math in the spreadsheet and the amount of lab work that would need to be done to get the input data. A single pH reading on a distilled water mash is much, much less involved than doing a titration and finding pK's that fit the titration. Even if the pK's were handed to you you would have to use iterative techniques to find the mash pH in the spreadsheet.

It should be clear that if malt A has a DI pH of 7.6 and malt B has a DI pH of 7.5 that a 1;1 blend of these 2 would have a pH somewhere in between but the fact that it seems to fall half way in between implying that a linear model is useful is a pleasant surprise!
 
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-TH-

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Hey Cory,
Sorry I didn't get back to your PM. I'll respond here instead...

TH - If I'm seeing the calculations properly it looks like you are using the distilled water mash pH of the crystal malts rather than the acidity as recommended in Kai's paper (I could be reading Kai's paper incorrectly though). Though utilizing the distilled water pH would seem to make perfect sense to me. Any thoughts on that?
You are correct. As AJ says in the above post (and I'm paraphrasing), the KISS method actually works quite well here.

Also, the distilled water pH for your calculator comes up as 4.92 for crystal 60 rather than 4.66 reported in Kai's paper. Did you do some separate experimentations to come up with your values as well?
I did my own linear regression on his crystal data. His test result of c60 was a bit of an outlier.

Any thoughts on what to use for Aromatic, Brown Malt, Honey Malt, Victory, etc...? Essentially many of the specialty malts not listed specifically on your spreadsheet. Should we be using Base - Other?
I've been using 3.0 for a few months now and I use Northern Brewer's printed catalog to find what catagory a malt falls into, i.e. base, caramel, or roasted/toasted. You could also use their website: http://www.northernbrewer.com/brewing/brewing-ingredients/grain-malts (categories are listed in box on left). This has worked very well for me. Obviously I would love to lab-test every malt from every maltster, but until then...
Sorry for all the questions. Love the new look. I'm incorporating it into my brew workbook with some minor adjustments. Looking forward to working with it.
No problem. Thanks. Have at it! Great!
 

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I love the new calculator, thanks a lot! It's very easy to use.

I have one question, and I know it's a little off-topic for the thread, so I can post a new one if need be.

I'm calculating my water for a fairly dark Russian Imperial Stout. There is 9.5lbs grain, with 2lb being dark roast malt (for a 2.5gal batch). With everything inputted, I get a mash pH calculation of 5.39, which is fairly fine. My residual alkalinity is calculated out as only 11.

To me, shouldn't my mash pH probably be lower since I have fairly low residual alkalinity? Also, if my pH is in a fine range with such low RA, what would be my point of boosting the RA up to, say, 150 for the beer (which is in the range Palmer recommends for dark beers)?

Sorry if it's too off-topic, I was just playing around with the spreadsheet and the question came up.
 

CPooley4

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Hey Cory,
Sorry I didn't get back to your PM. I'll respond here instead...



You are correct. As AJ says in the above post (and I'm paraphrasing), the KISS method actually works quite well here.



I did my own linear regression on his crystal data. His test result of c60 was a bit of an outlier.


I've been using 3.0 for a few months now and I use Northern Brewer's printed catalog to find what catagory a malt falls into, i.e. base, caramel, or roasted/toasted. You could also use their website: http://www.northernbrewer.com/brewing/brewing-ingredients/grain-malts (categories are listed in box on left). This has worked very well for me. Obviously I would love to lab-test every malt from every maltster, but until then...

No problem. Thanks. Have at it! Great!
Thanks TH, really helpful.

Just so I understand - Aromatic you would consider a crystal malt and since it is a 20L malt you'd essentially be using the same pH value at crystal 20 correct? Same thing with Victory being classified as a roasted/toasted, meaning you're not adjusting the pH even though the lovibond is much lower than say Chocolate malt etc...?

Thanks again.
 
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-TH-

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I love the new calculator, thanks a lot! It's very easy to use.

I have one question, and I know it's a little off-topic for the thread, so I can post a new one if need be.

I'm calculating my water for a fairly dark Russian Imperial Stout. There is 9.5lbs grain, with 2lb being dark roast malt (for a 2.5gal batch). With everything inputted, I get a mash pH calculation of 5.39, which is fairly fine. My residual alkalinity is calculated out as only 11.

To me, shouldn't my mash pH probably be lower since I have fairly low residual alkalinity? Also, if my pH is in a fine range with such low RA, what would be my point of boosting the RA up to, say, 150 for the beer (which is in the range Palmer recommends for dark beers)?

Sorry if it's too off-topic, I was just playing around with the spreadsheet and the question came up.
Experimental data seems to indicate that mash pH is not as low for dark beers as Palmer's spreasheet and nomograph predict. That is one of the reasons why I moved away from his formulae with each version of EZ.

So to answer your question, IMO there is no point in boosting your RA up.
 

ajdelange

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Also, if my pH is in a fine range with such low RA, what would be my point of boosting the RA up to, say, 150 for the beer (which is in the range Palmer recommends for dark beers)?
The fact that you asked this question means that you already understand, at least partially, the problem with requiring a particular RA for a beer with a given color. It would be best to forget that you ever heard about a relationship between beer color and RA. Yes, brewers with alkaline waters tended to brew dark beers but the relationship between color and alkalinity isn't nearly robust enough that one can speak of a required or recommended RA for a particular SRM.
 
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-TH-

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Thanks TH, really helpful.

Just so I understand - Aromatic you would consider a crystal malt and since it is a 20L malt you'd essentially be using the same pH value at crystal 20 correct? Same thing with Victory being classified as a roasted/toasted, meaning you're not adjusting the pH even though the lovibond is much lower than say Chocolate malt etc...?

Thanks again.
For now, yes. I would love to expand my emperical data of DI mash ph's of specific malts like aromatic, etc. (do I have any volunteers???) but I just couldn't wait any longer to release 3.0 with what I had since I felt it was already such an improvement over 2.0.
 

CPooley4

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For now, yes. I would love to expand my emperical data of DI mash ph's of specific malts like aromatic, etc. (do I have any volunteers???) but I just couldn't wait any longer to release 3.0 with what I had since I felt it was already such an improvement over 2.0.
Sounds good.

I personally do not have a pH meter at this time so wouldn't be of much help to you yet. Have just been using ajdelange's recommendations along with your spreadsheet to track each of my beers. Has been working really well so far.

I am incorporating a more extensive list of malt choices into your spreadsheet (have to do it this way to fully automate my brew workbook with your calculator). Once I'm finished I'll send you a copy. Will be giving each malt it's own di pH value. Can be updated as more data arrives, but for now I'll be utilizing the link you provided at northern brewer to come up with the values. Hoping to have it completed in the relatively near future. Just have to find the time.

cp
 

shanecb

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Thanks for the reply from both of you. I sort of assumed that was the case with the results I was getting. I guess it wasn't so much the color per se I was assuming there would be a relationship with, but the amount of roasted grains. It always seemed to me that with low alkalinity water, the amount of dark grains I'm using would push the pH too low, but that appears to not be the case.

Thanks!
 

ajdelange

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It is true that dark grains will pull low alkalinity water lower in pH than they will high alkalinity water but not all dark grains have the same acidity and thus in some cases you might undershoot and need alkali (or to use less dark grains) but in other cases you will be able to use as much or more dark grains without undershooting.
 

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This may be a dumb question and feel free to tell me if it is, but how does one account for adjunct grains like flaked oats and flaked barley in the spreadsheet?

Do they matter at all? Without putting them in the grain bill section the mash thickness is off and the weight of the grain is off, as well.

I've done a search, but I'm just not finding the answer. Perhaps my search-fu is not strong enough.
 

VikeMan

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Thanks Much for the update!

One question... why no NaCl in this version? I sometimes add a little NaCl to get some more chloride without moving the pH.

Don't mean to sound ungrateful!
 

CPooley4

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TH - I'm toying around with the calculator a bit. Wanted to see if I could add the Acid malt to the malts list with it's DI pH value rather than inputting separately under the Adjust pH Down section of your calculator. Any idea why inputting 4 oz in the Adjust pH Down section would give a different value than when I use 4 oz in the malts list with the DI pH value of 3.44 per Kai's paper? I'm sure is has something to do with the acid content, but wouldn't that be accounted for in the lower DI pH value of the malt?

Thanks,

cp
 

kal

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Really nice! Good work TH. Been a fan since the first version.

Just out of curiosity, why did you drop NaCl? (Other than the fact that I've personally never used it myself and can't imagine I ever would...)

Kal

P.S. While I applaud the free nature of your spreadsheet, you should at least put up a PayPal donate button on the site. I'd certainly send you something for the hard work. It would at least help pay for the domain registration/hosting fees.
 
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-TH-

-TH-

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This may be a dumb question and feel free to tell me if it is, but how does one account for adjunct grains like flaked oats and flaked barley in the spreadsheet?

Do they matter at all? Without putting them in the grain bill section the mash thickness is off and the weight of the grain is off, as well.

I've done a search, but I'm just not finding the answer. Perhaps my search-fu is not strong enough.
I don't have a lot of data on these, I've read somewhere that flaked barley is approx. the same DI mash pH as 2-row. So you could count them as 2-row, or you could leave them out - I know it affects your mash thickness, but that shouldn't affect pH by too much.
 
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-TH-

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Thanks Much for the update!

One question... why no NaCl in this version? I sometimes add a little NaCl to get some more chloride without moving the pH.

Don't mean to sound ungrateful!
No problem, I took it out because I didn't think people used it much and I didn't want people to put too much sodium in. But for people out there like you who use it wisely, I could probably throw it back in. I'll let you know when I get to it.
 
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-TH-

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TH - I'm toying around with the calculator a bit. Wanted to see if I could add the Acid malt to the malts list with it's DI pH value rather than inputting separately under the Adjust pH Down section of your calculator. Any idea why inputting 4 oz in the Adjust pH Down section would give a different value than when I use 4 oz in the malts list with the DI pH value of 3.44 per Kai's paper? I'm sure is has something to do with the acid content, but wouldn't that be accounted for in the lower DI pH value of the malt?

Thanks,

cp
I'll have to look at this when I have time. If I remember correctly, the formula I used for acid malt's affect on pH was based on a combination of my own experience and info I have seen elsewhere.
 

AScott

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I don't have a lot of data on these, I've read somewhere that flaked barley is approx. the same DI mash pH as 2-row. So you could count them as 2-row, or you could leave them out - I know it affects your mash thickness, but that shouldn't affect pH by too much.
Thanks! Love the spreadsheet. It's really helped me (been using it since version 1 and it keeps getting better). :mug:

By the way, you don't seem to be alone as far as lack of data on this is concerned. I've searched high and low for some solid info and I've yet to find it.
 
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-TH-

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Really nice! Good work TH. Been a fan since the first version.

Just out of curiosity, why did you drop NaCl? (Other than the fact that I've personally never used it myself and can't imagine I ever would...)

Kal
Thanks.

Mostly because by being on there I felt it might "suggest" to someone to use it, when I've learned its best not to if possible - or maybe sparingly at least. However, I may add it back (with a caveat) due to semi-poplular demand.

P.S. While I applaud the free nature of your spreadsheet, you should at least put up a PayPal donate button on the site. I'd certainly send you something for the hard work. It would at least help pay for the domain registration/hosting fees.
Yeah, I thought about doing that but felt kind of funny about it - don't know why really. Maybe I should. In the meantime, there's always this option :D:D:D...https://www.homebrewtalk.com/donate.php?Receiver_ID=26617
 

kal

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Yeah, I thought about doing that but felt kind of funny about it - don't know why really. Maybe I should. In the meantime, there's always this option :D:D:D...https://www.homebrewtalk.com/donate.php?Receiver_ID=26617
Done! You should now have a "HomeBrewTalk Premium Membership". Oddly enough, I don't see it beside your name when I refresh this thread... and my subscription wasn't increased by 1 year so it didn't go to me. If you don't have it let me know and I'll complain. I have the PayPal receipt to prove payment. ;)

Thanks for your hard work!

Kal
 
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-TH-

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Done! You should now have a "HomeBrewTalk Premium Membership". Oddly enough, I don't see it beside your name when I refresh this thread... and my subscription wasn't increased by 1 year so it didn't go to me. If you don't have it let me know and I'll complain. I have the PayPal receipt to prove payment. ;)

Thanks for your hard work!

Kal
Got it! Thanks! I really appreciate that!
 

kal

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It's the least I can do - I use your spreadsheet every time I brew. It's by far the easiest/most logical water adjustment tool I've tried. The fact that you keep working on it to make it better is icing on the cake!

Kal
 
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-TH-

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BTW, AJ did a quick check of his last 3 brews vs. 3.0 - here's his post from another thread...

I went back and checked the last 3 beers I did. Here's what I got

Beer Prediction Measured
Kölsch 5.48 5.49
Fest 5.23 5.32
Pils 5.41 5.45

Not bad at all but I do need to point out that I used the DI mash value for the base malt I use (Weyermann's Pils) that I measured (5.75) rather than the value in the table (5.70). Obviously, if I used 5.70 all the pH's would be lower by 0.05.

For the Fest I did not measure the DI pH's for any of the other malts using, instead, the values in the table. The base malt value was 5.75.

Thus, for the beers I do with the water I do based on a sample size of n = 3. It appears this is a good model. It is still imperative that it be fed with good data.
 

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These EZ Water spreadsheets feel like cheating. Adjusting water chemistry is not supposed to be so easy, is it? My water sample shows really high bicarbonates (335). According to this latest one I should add about 4ml of lactic acid to reduce the pH to around 5.54 (after adding in our grain bill) and add 3 grams of calcium chloride to balance out the bitterness to maltiness. We'll be brewing an Imperial IPA next so we're probably going to want water that highlights bitterness, but I figure I can drop the amounts of calcium chloride in future batches if the bitterness isn't strong enough. Thanks again for all your hard work on making our lives easier.
 

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My ph fell in-between the recommend ph range of 5.4-5.6 at 5.51
Now I've read that 5.2 should be the ph to shoot for.
I got it to 5.22 by adding 5ml of lactic acid. For 10 total gallons of water used
Am I now to forget about 5.2,and just try to fall in the reco/range .
 

ajdelange

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Right around 5.4 is ideal if the measurement was made at room temperature. It might be closer to 5.2 at mash temperature but you should not measure at mash temperature.
 

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I thought I'd post some real world results since it's fresh:
Keep in mind that the water specs were literally tested within about a week of brewing and the actual pH was measured with two different meters.


Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 87
Mg: 15
Na: 28
Cl: 69
SO4: 48
CaCO3: 186

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 84 / 41


Total Grain (lb): 270.0

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
no adjustments made other than campden for chloramine removal.

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 87 / 87
Mg: 15 / 15
Na: 28 / 28
Cl: 69 / 69
SO4: 48 / 48
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 1.44 / 1.44

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 186
RA: 115
Estimated pH: 5.68
Measured pH: 5.39


The grain breakdown was:

Select Grain Weight Color (°L) Mash pH
Type (lb) (Crystal Malts Only) (from chart)
4 205 0 5.77
5 18 0 5.43
11 35 0 4.71
10 12 60 4.92
1 0 0 0.00

205lbs Maris, 18lbs Munich, 35lbs Roasted (14 roasted barley, 14 chocolate, 7 Carafa III) and 12lb Crystal 60L
 
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-TH-

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I thought I'd post some real world results since it's fresh:
Keep in mind that the water specs were literally tested within about a week of brewing and the actual pH was measured with two different meters.


Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 87
Mg: 15
Na: 28
Cl: 69
SO4: 48
CaCO3: 186

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 84 / 41


Total Grain (lb): 270.0

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
no adjustments made other than campden for chloramine removal.

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 87 / 87
Mg: 15 / 15
Na: 28 / 28
Cl: 69 / 69
SO4: 48 / 48
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 1.44 / 1.44

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 186
RA: 115
Estimated pH: 5.68
Measured pH: 5.39


The grain breakdown was:

Select Grain Weight Color (°L) Mash pH
Type (lb) (Crystal Malts Only) (from chart)
4 205 0 5.77
5 18 0 5.43
11 35 0 4.71
10 12 60 4.92
1 0 0 0.00

205lbs Maris, 18lbs Munich, 35lbs Roasted (14 roasted barley, 14 chocolate, 7 Carafa III) and 12lb Crystal 60L
I know the spreadsheet won't always be dead on every time, but I have to say your measured pH looks low to me for that water profile and grain bill (I assume the 5.39 is at room temp right?) I wouldn't think the large batch size would have anything to do with it, but who knows, maybe the mash hadn't mixed enough yet or the pH "leveled off" yet when the sample was taken? Or maybe the DI water mash pH for your Maris Otter is much lower than the 5.77 that Kai got for his. I don't know, maybe someone else (like AJ) has some ideas.
 

jmf143

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Love the new version TH! One thing that's always seemd odd to me is that none of the spreadsheets allow for making additions to the sparge water unless the same salt is being added to the strike water. Is there an easy explanation why this would be the case?
 
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