I understand that levels AND ratio are what I need to be looking at NOT ratio only.
If you get x correct and y correct then x/y will be defined. Beyond that I don't see much value in the ratio. The idea of a ratio is very appealing but it suggests that sulfate "cancels" chloride and conversely. This is because the chemical potential of an ion is related to the logarithm of its concentration (approximately). The mu_Cl = mu_Cl_0 + k*log([Cl-]) and mu_SO4 = mu_SO4_0 + k*log([SO4--]) where mu_X is the chemical potential of X, mu_X_0 is the chemical potential of X under some standard condition and [X] is the concentration (really the activity which is almost the same) of ion X. As log(x/y) = log x - log y a given value for the chloride sulfate ratio implies a fixed difference in the chemical potentials of the two species. Hence the implied cancellation i.e the implication that their effects are opposite.
So, then what levels am I looking for? If I'm brewing a stout (like I am) what levels am I looking for? What do you shoot for? I feel like if I could get my head around this, I'd be OK.
RE:
Chloride accentuates maltiness
Chloride (up to a point) makes the beer taste "rounder", fuller, smoother and sweeter. This is not what I would associate with malty. One controls maltiness by his choices of grains and how he mashes them. Chloride effects are in no way comparable to, for example, adding some special B or decocting at a high temperature as opposed to an infusion rest at 145 °F
Sulfate accentuates bitterness
Sulfate tends to render the bitterness "coarse" or "rough" (sort of grabs you in the back of the throat). It is, for example, pointless to waste your money on noble hops and use them in a high sulfate situation as you paid a premium for the "fine" bitterness of these cultivars. This is, a case where the ratio of sulfate to chloride is defined: it should be as close to 0 as possible. Bitterness is managed by choice of hop cultivar, charging amount and charging schedule. Sulfate will definitely have an effect on the perception of the hops though. This is why I usually advocate starting with a low sulfate level and increasing to see whether you like the effects of it or not. My writings on this subject are doubtless biased by the fact that I do not like sulfate. I built an RO system to get rid of 27 mg/L sulfate which is too much for me.
Chloride amounts between 0-250 is OK (acc. to Palmer)
Beers are certainly brewed over this range but many brewers, commercial and home, would be unhappy with a 0 level chloride. It was common practice in my youth to shake salt into beer. Lots of brewers add calcium chloride to their brews to increase the calcium (which is a good thing) but then give all the credit for improvement to the calcium. I believe much of it goes to the chloride. At the upper end of the range chloride is going to start adding a mineral (salty) quality to the beer. This is part of some styles. The appropriate level is what you like if you are striving to please yourself or whatever the style calls for if you are trying to win a competition.
Sulfate amounts between 50-350 is OK (acc. to Palmer)
German brewing texts would disagree that there should be at least 50 ppm sulfate given that they strive for the lowest sulfate level they can achieve (with exceptions, of course). As noted above I consider 27 mg/L ruinous to my beers (I'm mostly a lager brewer). Again the amount of sulfate you want is the amount that makes the beer most to your liking or as is typical for the style if you are putting the beer in contests.
As far as amounts go using TH's "very bitter,"...
Palmer doesn't say this, but it seems logical that "malty" ....
As I reject the notion that water controls a bitter vs malty axis I don't have much to say about what the amounts of the salts should be. Most of my beers are brewed with RO water to which some calcium chloride has been added. Some of the beers are bitter. Some are malty. Even in the bitter ones, though, the bitterness is fine because I've rejected sulfate. I can't abide that rough bitterness that, IMO, ruins so many craft beers. But please bear in mind that my practices reflect my tastes. Yours should reflect yours.
So take this Black Forest Stout I'll be brewing. This is obviously going to be a malty beer. Probably not super malty though like an Imperial Stout or Imperial Bock would be. So Chloride numbers for this beer should probably be in the 150-200 range.
The only kind of stout I really like or brew is the Guiness - like Irish stout which I certainly don't think of as malty. Even the Guiness tropical, which is certainly not an "Irish" stout because it is so rich beer at 7% ABV I don't think of as malty because the dark malt/roast barley flavors dominate. If you want to make it hoppier add more hops. If you want the hops to hit you in the face, up sulfate. If you want it maltier use more malt, use more crystal, melanoidin etc.
So if my Chloride (to get the malty character) falls between 150-200 I would want my Sulfates to have a ratio between 1.25:1 and 1.5:1. This would mean that for Chlorides around the 150 mark, my Sulfates should fall somewhere between 100-120 for a 1.25-1.5:1 ratio. But if my Chlorides are higher around the 200 mark, my Sulfates should fall somewhere between 130-160 for a 1.25-1.5:1 ratio.
I'm afraid you are still sold more on the power of the ratio concept than I believe is justified. Others might not share that opinion.
I am assuming there is a certain amount of experimentation that happens, but other than experimentation, is there any information on at least a starting point for experimenting with flavor profiles for the various styles?
I'm afraid cycles of brewing, drinking, adjusting and brewing again are the only way to find brewing Nirvana. I really advocate the KISS principal for the water. Take the water you've got, add some calcium chloride and brew the beer. I then recommend tweaking chloride and sulfate to explore the range of effects these ions can have (while,of course, being strict about mash pH control). But you need to understand the effects of different hops varieties and the different grains available to you. Obviously I've described a trade space that is bigger than you can realistically hope to explore. It took me 25 years to figure out how to brew a Pils I like (and you might not like it). Your only alternative is to rely on the experience of others. Ray Daniels "Designing Beers" has lots of statistical information about what home brewers have done and that's a good place to look.
Do you have any info for what you use in your brewing? What amount of Chloride do you have in your Stouts and Porters? What amount of Sulfate do you have in your IPAs and APAs? What ratio do you usually shoot for when getting your water ready?
I'm currently experimenting with the thesis that any beer is better with water that contains only calcium chloride, and not much of that, and traces of other ions. It certainly seems to work with the lagers and I don't brew many ales or stouts. The last stouts I did were with nominal tap water (about 80 ppm as CaCO3 calcium hardness, about 30 ppm Mg hardness, alkalinity of 70 or so, chloride at 7 and sulfate at 27). Nice beers but I want to try them with the RO as well. My last Kölsch was done with very soft water and that isn't quite ready to be critically tasted. Because of the soft water I used Saaz which makes the bitterness fine but the beer has that wonderful (but perhaps not in a Kölsch) spiciness that one gets from Saaz.
Like I said, maybe I'm way off, but I feel like if I could get over this hurdle maybe I'd be able to figure this water thing out. Thanks in advance.
I strongly advocate KISS here. The guys that gave you the spreadsheets are engineers who tend to over engineer things. This isn't meant to be a criticism of these gentlemen or the hard work they have done. I applaud and understand their desires completely as I am a member of the brotherhood. I used to do all that stuff with spreadsheets too but when Yooper asked me to write the Primer I realized that I was basically brewing per the Primer and not doing all the calculating and fine adjustment that I used to do. And my beers were better.
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