Extract brewing is FAKE brewing

Yakima 728
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Brownalemikie said:
I'm sure I'll get slammed but I see no reason to go all grain. I just brewed my 28th batch of extract beer this morning and I expect it to be as good/great as previous batches. If it's not broke, don't fix it. I'm enjoying a extract Caribou Slobber brown ale right now and can't think of anything I'd rather be drinking. JMO
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I don't see any reason why you'd get slammed. Your process and style work for you, and that's what is important.

This whole hobby is such that you can geek out to whatever level matches your personality, but still make great beer regardless of how simple or overwrought your brewing style is (mr. beer being more or less the dead simple end of the spectrum, a triple decoction with a separate cereal mash being somewhere near the other end). But not everyone is in the hobby for the same reasons, nor do we all necessarily have the same interests and focuses within brewing, so what works for me might seem unnecessary to you, and what works for you might not be the thing that piques my interest in brewing. But assuming that we are both skilled at our own process, we'll both be able to sit down and crack open some quality homebrew at the end of a couple weeks.
 
The problem with some is, they get a few brews under their belt, acquire some stainless steel and plumbing parts and suddenly they become an expert, forgetting that they most likely started with extract. I know a few local guys who brew damn good beer, and have been using extract for 10 years. It's not necessarily the type of malt you use as much as it's also about quality of ingredients, the attention you give your recipe, the process and methods. I do extract because I live in an apartment, don't have the room, and it suits me just fine. Keep doin' your extract!
 
torilen said:
The only thing I personally would say I notice about extract (vs all-grains that I have had...but not made) is that extract has a water-type mouth feel. Of course, I don't use corn syrup or lactose, so that should be expected. I don't really mind too much, but it is something I am aware of.
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I have from time to time noticed that same mouth feel with my extracts as well. I wonder if that characteristic changes if you were to do a full boil with extract...Start with like 6 gallons and intend on ending with 5 like you would in all grain. Maybe the addition of the water post boil has an influence on the ending mouth feel. I do know that I don't sense this at all when doing true partial mashes where a bit of sparging is involved.

Extract is the lazy way of brewing but there is nothing wrong with that. its like baking a cake...you get the ingredients and follow the directions. In all grain brewing you make the ingredients by extracting the sugars from the grains. The extracts are really good quality these days. Its not hard to make a beer with extract that is better than a commercial all grain beer. Once you have a properly brewed beer and compare it to something that is crap, you realize that the process of brewing is what really makes a beer great. The people make the product what it is...You cant replace a talented brewer with money and fancy equipment. So many people these days are trying to buy their way to brewing excellence...you just cant do it like that and expect to get anywhere. Its like playing the guitar...you either no what you are doing or you don't.
 
While one of the original quotes is from a ******* and the other from an insufferable elitist, it's true there are benefits to going all-grain. I would consider extract, specifically extract from a kit to be like making a cake from a box. You can make extract beers with a solid process, custom recipes, fresh ingredients, and make fantastic beer though. It's not fake, but a considerable portion of the process has been done for you. All-grain just affords you more opportunities to succeed as well as fail. It gives you more creative freedom and the ability to adjust certain parameters. On a personal level, I can't see myself being proud of an extract beer if I made nowadays, even if it turns out well. It just doesn't feel as homemade.
 
I think it is just like any other hobby that we enjoy. Hot rods,boats, fishing etc.There is always going to be people that think they are better than everyone else. If you are happy doing extracts so be it . If you want be an all grain brewer more power to you. Who care's what someone else thinks?.Just so long as you are enjoying the hobby and you are happy. I think we all are in this hobby and others for all our own reason's. I am here because I want to learn more about my hobby and make better beers. Extract or all grain it does not matter to me. I think sometime's we all get caught up in this hobby that we forgot what it is like to be back at the beginning when we all started out.We all have our reasons why we started brewing. Maybe because there were no good beers in your area or you did it because it was fun.Fun with your friends wife kids etc. Or maybe you just wanted to try it once?. And you made some great beer. Thats exactly what a hobby is suppose to be fun . If you have become so jaded that you are not having fun or knocking people that may not be as advanced as you as brewer or as far along as you in the hobby, Well maybe its time for those type of people to find a new hobby. We all are here for a common purpose and that is to help our fellow brewer grow as a brewer,learn and help grow our hobby. JMO
 
PlexVector said:
That begs the question: what came first--the axe handle or the tree? You know--like a circular reference in a spreadsheet...:pipe:
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Obvious answer:
You must break a small limb off the tree. Then using a rock that you have sharpend, through a careful chipping process with another stone, you can whittle the limb into the form of a handle. Then you will have to attach the stone head of the ax to the handle.
Now, we want to ensure we are not harming any wildlife in our brewing, so using leather from any kind animal hide is out of the question. This leaves us with the option of trying to braid grasses(or maybe the shaft from our barley that we are growing and malting) to create an acceptable lashing material.
Personally, I question the strength of such a twine. That said, my solution could only be to carve off strips of my own flesh that I can then cure into an acceptable strapping to lash the head on to the axe...
If you aren't doing that, well you are not a real home brewer.
 
Oh, wait...
The first brew i do this year will be a pre-hopped extract. After that, there are 2 more extract kits in line for the next opportunity.
Sadly, having 4 childen in diapers (2 yr old girl and 5 mo triplet boys) has robbed me of all free time to brew. I will proudly drink those brews and will still consider myself a homebrewer, despite doing nothing more than making hot syrup water and throwing some dry yeast (straight from the packet not hydrated) into once it is cooled.
Brew how you ever you like (or can), as long as you enjoy the fruits of your labor ignore those that would try to put you down.
Better yet, dont offer them a beer.
 
I would say I am glad I started with extract. I want to do an AG, but I need a few more things. Extract is a great beginners and for some people that don't want the hassle of sparging and extra work. The important part is, is it all drinkable? Do you like your beer? Who cares what someone else thinks. If they don't like it they can go somewhere else.����
 
My brother in law came over and had a few of my extract beers. Then he says "Next time you brew beer, let me know and I'll come over and help you drink it." I guess it's good?
 
frozengator said:
I would say I am glad I started with extract. I want to do an AG, but I need a few more things. Extract is a great beginners and for some people that don't want the hassle of sparging and extra work. The important part is, is it all drinkable? Do you like your beer? Who cares what someone else thinks. If they don't like it they can go somewhere else.����
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BIAB all grain is pretty popular and you can no sparge with all grain you just need a big mash tun...actually you can no sparge with a 10 gallon tun as long as the grain bill isn't huge. My theory is, if you are doing partial mashes you might as well be doing BIAB because the process is pretty similar if you think about it. It all came from grain at some point!!! hehe.:mug:
 
For all you extract brewers out there, here's how I steep my grains...with my sous vide. Great for cooking also! (google it) It keeps the water temp at a constant temp.

sousvide.jpg
 
Honda88 said:
BIAB all grain is pretty popular and you can no sparge with all grain you just need a big mash tun...actually you can no sparge with a 10 gallon tun as long as the grain bill isn't huge. My theory is, if you are doing partial mashes you might as well be doing BIAB because the process is pretty similar if you think about it. It all came from grain at some point!!! hehe.:mug:
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Just asked this question in another thread. Not sure on size of cooler to start with. 10 or 5. I have a 10 gallon pot. So I figure I will do 5 gallon batches for now. But I figured I was going to buy a 10 gallon cooler. I was wondering about the heat retinsion on a smaller batch
 
JDWebb said:
For all you extract brewers out there, here's how I steep my grains...with my sous vide. Great for cooking also! (google it) It keeps the water temp at a constant temp.
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How many brews do you have with your sous vide cooker? Bag or no bag, I would expect it to gunk up quite a bit since they're designed for recirculating with just clean water.
 
Not as vital to keep your temps on specialty grains constant. The whole purpose of the constant temps is to extract the sugar from the base grains. Specialty grains don't add that much sugar to the brew, so temp is not as vital.

I just put the grains in a grain bag, bring the temp up to 160ish, throw them in and wait 30 mins, might loose 5-6 degrees over the 30 mins, (less or more depending on the ambient temps).
 
morbster said:
How many brews do you have with your sous vide cooker? Bag or no bag, I would expect it to gunk up quite a bit since they're designed for recirculating with just clean water.
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The Anova comes apart, and I keep it clean. Inside the bottom can is just a heating element and a small propeller, not much to "gunk up".
 
JDWebb said:
The Anova comes apart, and I keep it clean. Inside the bottom can is just a heating element and a small propeller, not much to "gunk up".
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Interesting, I didn't know you could take them apart easily. I've only used my for cooking a few times, and I never bothered to see how easily it could be cleaned. Thanks
 
morbster said:
Interesting, I didn't know you could take them apart easily. I've only used my for cooking a few times, and I never bothered to see how easily it could be cleaned. Thanks
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If you have an Anova, twist the bottom can until it comes loose, slide it off. I clean mine after every use. In time, you will get a buildup on the heating elements. If you have the Joule, do the same thing.
 
JDWebb said:
If you have an Anova, twist the bottom can until it comes loose, slide it off. I clean mine after every use. In time, you will get a buildup on the heating elements. If you have the Joule, do the same thing.
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Thanks JDWebb
 
I am brand new to home brewing, just completed my first batch. I did an extract custom recipe. I am going to be focusing on hop forward New England style IPAs. My malt profile s really simple just light DME which is 2-row, some wheat DME and I steeped in catapils and crystal malt. So I am not sure I would really even benefit from all grain much? I am really only cheating be step and being a basic malt profile not sure it would give me much more control. The real work for this type of beer is hop additions, whirlpooling, dry hopping etc. so I will probably stick with this for the foreseeable future and dial in all these processes first before consider going all grain.
 
marjen said:
I am brand new to home brewing, just completed my first batch. I did an extract custom recipe. I am going to be focusing on hop forward New England style IPAs. My malt profile s really simple just light DME which is 2-row, some wheat DME and I steeped in catapils and crystal malt. So I am not sure I would really even benefit from all grain much? I am really only cheating be step and being a basic malt profile not sure it would give me much more control. The real work for this type of beer is hop additions, whirlpooling, dry hopping etc. so I will probably stick with this for the foreseeable future and dial in all these processes first before consider going all grain.
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All grain would allow you to work with oats, which are a pretty key part of the malt bill for most NEIPAs. The other big benefit you would see would be the ability to control the fermentability of your wort (huge advantage).

However, I agree that it's worth sticking with extract for awhile in order to master the downstream processes. It is a great way to keep from over-complicating things while you focus on the non-malt aspects of brewing. Once you've done that, then you might consider whether you'd like to go AG.

Both AG and extract have benefits and drawbacks. Extract gives you the convenience factor (an entire step of the process has been done for you by someone else), but you are bound by the profile of the extract formula. You also have limited use of certain grains (mild malt, golden promise, and corn/rice/oats are just a few examples off the top of the ol' noggin) that you are unlikely to find as extracts, but that can't just be steeped. AG, on the other hand, gives you full control and use of anything and everything, but requires more work, equipment, time, and cleanup.

Partial mash brewing can be a nice intersection of the two, so that might be something to consider down the road.

At any rate, I would just caution against the assumption that because your first batch of extract beer was focused on hopping (because obviously it was, you don't have to do anything with the malt when you use extract), there is nothing more to that side of brewing the style. I'm not knocking you or extract brewing in any way, but you are only one batch in, and regardless of how well you researched it ahead of time, you still have plenty of experience to gain before you know whether or not you are satisfied with the control that your current process affords you.
 
Actually I can really see myself making the move to BIAB and probably holding steady there. Seems to add a lot if not all the advantages of grain brewing in a much easier process. As soon as my first batch is done and I can sample I am going to brew another extract round then MAY think about BIAB. :D
 
Bias in this community is no different than in any other community. Each aspect in our community has consensus bias. I know these things because am a part of this community: 10 gallon brewers are better than 1 gallon brewers. All grain brewers are better than extract brewers. Heavy equipment brewers (stainless steel, sanitary weld, big name brand equipment) are better than cheap equipment users. Keggers are better than bottlers. Bias is human and also is total absolute garbage crap in every way. If you believe that your brand name, 10 gallon, all grain +keg system makes better beer without understanding that there is a 1 gallon, extract, cheap equipment, bottler out there that makes better beer than you, then you will never be able to make better beer than that guy. Bias leads to false belief. Recognize the bias and do whatever based on your actual needs and wants. Neither extract nor all grain make better beer.
 
I've always used the spaghetti sauce metaphor. To the non-brewer I explain that, like homebrewing, there are many different levels of complexity when making spaghetti sauce.

The first, and simplest, is to take store bought spaghetti sauce, like Prego or Ragu, boil the noodles and combine. This is like the most basic form of extract brewing. The next, adding a little "flair" and complexity, is taking that store bought sauce and adding fresh tomatoes and herbs, making it a bit more of your own. This is like extract + specialty grains.

Next is taking ingredients like canned diced tomatoes, fresh tomatoes, your own herbs and spices and some tomato juice and combining them to create your own sauce. This is, technically, not completely home made, but it's damn close, just like partial mash.

Last is taking the tomatoes, fresh herbs and spices, garlic, etc. and cooking it all down yourself to make completely homemade sauce. This is like all grain.

I've used this metaphor for 10+ years to explain homebrewing to people and it seems to work well. I feel like a lot of homebrewers/people in general get it in their heads that homebrewing, like cooking, can't have certain levels of complexity.
 
I like your post and find it mostly not offensive, but still it is obvious that the different levels of spaghetti sauce are graded as better and worse. Each person brings their own values to the table and I guarantee that there is a canned spaghetti sauce out there that makes a mockery out of your homemade spaghetti sauce, but you see my own example shows values and bias as to what makes something good. Your spaghetti example as nice as it is compares apples and oranges. For one it is far easier to heat a jar of sauce than the time and effort that goes into making an extract beer.
 
TAK said:
harvest yeast from your beard
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Wow I didn't think that was possible! Not sure I'd still want to do it though...

:D

I still have one of the greenest pair of horns here with only a few batches under my belt so not sure if I qualify for a valid opinion but I do both AG and extract side by side, both for their own reasons.

Extract so I can have large quantities of "drinking beer" and to be both not confined to the "bulk crap" lager the stores sell cause anything even a bit more "special" can easily cost 4eur and up per 0,5l bottle, and to be self sufficient which is a bit of an oxymoron as I still have to buy the extract, DME and stuff from my LHBS. You can always tweak the extract brews as well with DME, dry hopping, flavor additions etc. IMO it's just more convenient a menthod to use when you just don't have the time (or space) to mash.

AG batches I do whenever I have the time to experiment. I'm a big brit ale buff, especially shepherd neame, and the initial spark to even start this whole thing was to be able to replicate their products as well as make similiar possibly even better brews myself.

I've bumped into similiar bigotry in other forums as well. Possibly the worst have been italian car owners. To them it's all about keeping your car as OEM as possible. OEM parts only, OEM made wheels etc only. I used to have an Alfa Romeo 916 Spider for a while, and was treated like crap for having wide aftermarket rims with god forbid spacers at the back as well as a big audio amp fitted into the cockpit so that people can see it! I still cringe when I hear the word "pepperpot" (certain type of an OEM alloy rim, and a fugly one if you ask me)

But I digress...

What's it to anyone else what you do with your own time and money, so they disapprove your methods, so what. There's always gonna be purists out there no matter what the subject at hand is. Let them do their own thing and have their feeling of elitism if it brings content to their sad empty lives, I'm quite happy doing my own thing and not giving a rat's south end if my brews fall within a specific category or not. All I care is good beer falling within my own lips giving me satisfaction, joy and if all goes well, intoxication. IMO that's what the essence of home brewing boils down to.

:mug:
 
You know Biker Matt. I really wish it didn't bother me what someone else thinks, but does. It takes a lot of time, money and effort to figure out what it is that I really want and to then have some elitest poop on it really raises my hackles. Guys like you that are in it for the joy and utility of it are my true community of homebrewers. My community doesn't discriminate, except that you are brewing the way you want to without calling your way better than mine.
 
I didn't say it doesn't bother me, I just don't let it affect me that much anumore. it's just that I've been more or less bullied my entire youth and always been told what to do and what not that I've become a bit of a renegade in the sense that the more someone tells me what to do/think/listen to/whatever, the more that thing is most certainly what I will NOT do. You can tell me the pros and cons of your preferred method but it's up to me should I heed your advice or not, and if you come telling me yours as the ultimate truth I'm bound to shun away and seek advice elsewhere. It's true that if someone just getting started bumps into purists then the flickering flame of one's interest is easily blown off as the first impression will stick for a long time. A good example: as I've said before I build and ride streetfighter motorbikes.

What was your first impression? Ratty no muffler loud as heck f***k the police hoonigan that power wheelies through downtown just to be a tuff mofo and to annoy people? Yea. There are those too but let me tell you that's just the loud minority, most of us just love to build bikes as we see fit, and ride them in an orderly fashion. Trust me that was my premise as well when I started to look for a community that just likes to build stuff and not care for the hooning part, and to my surprise as well found it. Not sure what is the policy of endorsing other forums here so won't mention it unless asked but such a place exists and it's big.

Of course it hurts if someone talks your efforts down, trust me I know my bike has been in several shows as well as featured in a magazine, and I've heard al kinds of crap about it. If I'd say I didn't care I'd be lying why else would have I put it up for display in the first place, but I always keep in mind where that judging opinion comes from. Those harl... ahem, custom bike riders can be quite judgmental against anyone else so I don't really hold too much weight to their opinion... IMO it is a testament to iself to have made those achievements in the first place. Besides if I would have built a show winner that I didn't like myself wouldn't that make me a sellout? :D


Ok I'm rambling far too much now but I suppose my analogy came through? :D
 
AZCoolerBrewer said:
I like your post and find it mostly not offensive, but still it is obvious that the different levels of spaghetti sauce are graded as better and worse. Each person brings their own values to the table and I guarantee that there is a canned spaghetti sauce out there that makes a mockery out of your homemade spaghetti sauce, but you see my own example shows values and bias as to what makes something good. Your spaghetti example as nice as it is compares apples and oranges. For one it is far easier to heat a jar of sauce than the time and effort that goes into making an extract beer.
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I agree with you. It's not a perfect metaphor. But it is, in the end, just a metaphor. I was just trying to illustrate how I try and explain different approaches to homebrewing to people in the hopes that it would add the conversation. :mug:
 
SkewedBrewing said:
I agree with you. It's not a perfect metaphor. But it is, in the end, just a metaphor. I was just trying to illustrate how I try and explain different approaches to homebrewing to people in the hopes that it would add the conversation. :mug:
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I actually agree with you, it is the same metaphor I have been using. It is the perfect metaphor. The comment that it is "apples to oranges", well he doesn't really understand what a metaphor is..... As I said in my post earlier in this thread, extract brewers are a sensitive lot. In the end it does not matter what method you use to brew, this is about having fun and doing something you enjoy. So enjoy and don't worry about what the elitist AG brewers think, but I'll keep my AG and y'all sensitive weenies can keep your Prego....:p
 
TorMag said:
I actually agree with you, it is the same metaphor I have been using. It is the perfect metaphor. The comment that it is "apples to oranges", well he doesn't really understand what a metaphor is..... As I said in my post earlier in this thread, extract brewers are a sensitive lot. In the end it does not matter what method you use to brew, this is about having fun and doing something you enjoy. So enjoy and don't worry about what the elitist AG brewers think, but I'll keep my AG and y'all sensitive weenies can keep your Prego....:p
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Thanks, TorMag, you got me.
 
It is because of nonsensical comments that the OP shared with us that I stopped using the internet a few years ago. It's very refreshing to not be tied to such a leash. You can read about it on my twitter feed.
 

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