Exploring "no chill" brewing

[brewt00l]

Yeah, but unless you are using a lot of Pilsner malt and not boiling adequately, you wont have much SMM left.

I have always boiled for 90 minutes, since it is basically free to add 30 minutes to the boil. So going to "no chill" was easier, 90-100 minute boils leave extremely small ammounts of SMM in the wort, thusly, much less ability to produce DMS.

I've been running Pils base beers for 60M, hard boil after the break w/ a quick chill and there's been no trace of DMS in these finished beers. If you look at your commonly stated primary factors (SMM in your malt, boil length, boil intensity & chilling efficiency/time), it come down to manipulating the ones you can control to your benefit....I'd imagine that if you eliminate chilling efficiency/time from the equation, with the same SMM to start, your boil length & intensity become much more critical & 90 is prb required.

 

[The Pol]

I've been running Pils base beers for 60M, hard boil after the break w/ a quick chill and there's been no trace of DMS in these finished beers. If you look at your commonly stated primary factors (SMM in your malt, boil length, boil intensity & chilling efficiency/time), it come down to manipulating the ones you can control to your benefit....I'd imagine that if you eliminate chilling efficiency/time from the equation, with the same SMM to start, your boil length & intensity become much more critical & 90 is prb required.

If I am using A LOT of Pils, I will do a 100 minute boil... 90 minutes with pale 2-row

 

[Fingers]

Those cubes look great for road trip brew sessions, especially if you're crossing borders. No grain, no yeast. Just sugar water.


Mmmmmm..... sugar water....

 

[Dr_Deathweed]

Wow, thanks for including that information. Seeing it written this way I have a much better idea of what you are trying to do. The "no chill" part is actually critical to the process as it's also serving the purpose of sanitizing, and this means glass is not an option (which is what i was originally thinking).

Oh, and yea, thanks for introducing me to the aussiehomebrew site. Just what I need, another beer forum to keep up with.

Haha, yeah, another site to browse only leads to further obsession over brewing Its going to be rough not getting to brew for a couple months, but hopefully between my pipeline and this project I can still have a good supply during this time.

Hope everyone enjoys the article, it does a much better job explaining what I intend to do than my original post.

Those cubes look great for road trip brew sessions, especially if you're crossing borders. No grain, no yeast. Just sugar water.


Mmmmmm..... sugar water....

If your first thought with this project is running borders, it might be time for you to leave Canada

 

[Fingers]

If your first thought with this project is running borders, it might be time for you to leave Canada

Naw, I'll never leave.I would like to do a road trip or have some of you Yanks up for a brew and piss up weekend. I'm a country boy. I can accommodate hundreds of people with tents and campers. I have a buddy who rents porta-potties. It could get ugly.

 

[Flattop]

No chill works, i myself have done 4 recently but there are brewers who have done many more.
I think the main question is why? The answer is convenience, maybe you don't own a chiller, maybe you don't want to ferment this week, maybe you don't have bottling capacity but do have spare time. Maybe you only brew in summer or winter.
Cubing gives flexibility you won't find with traditional methods.
Personally i BIAB and no chill cube. It means i have 4 bits of gear, an electric Urn, a bag, cube (actually i have 2) and a fermenter. From this i can make good AG brews.

 

[The Pol]

I use my No Chill cube, as my fermentor. See, I can do this, because it is 6 gallons. The key is, I only wait 24 hours to pitch, so headpsace isnt really a problem for me.

 

[Dr_Deathweed]

I use my No Chill cube, as my fermentor. See, I can do this, because it is 6 gallons. The key is, I only wait 24 hours to pitch, so headpsace isnt really a problem for me.

Don't even try to compete with flattop on being a minimalist, I have seen the pictures of your brew rig and he has you beat hands down

Thanks for the positive input there guys, I am really looking forward to starting this project. I will start gathering everything on Wednesday when I am off, and will have all day Thurs and Fri to work on my equipment and brew.

I did post a question on aussiehomebrewer.com that directed over to this thread about refrigerating/room temperature storage. I am still certain room temp is ok, but still looking for that reassurance Hopefully we will get some on here before I start this.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I would have absolutely no concern about contamination or spoilage before pitching. I am with the Pol and believe this is actually more sanitary than a regular chill.

However, I am very skeptical of the quality of wort produced this way vs. traditional crash chill.

First, you will have zero cold break. I know some do not care about this, but the more science texts I read the more I am understanding that dropping those proteins and other materials out of the wort before hitting the fermenter and having them precipitated is very important. Can you still make good beer without it? Of course, but is at as great or as quality as it could have been? Well, I think the jury is hung.

Second, DMS is not he only compound that is produced after the boil that is stopped by a crash cool. Again these may be mostly driven off, but likely not all. The beer may be good, but is it the best it could have been?

I think this method is legit and could be a great option for some people. Personally, I brew beer for the challenge of making the best beer I can. If I just wanted something good and easy I would go to any number of great beer stores in my area, save some money, and have good beer. Cutting corners is something I try as hard as I can to avoid, and for me, no-chill is a corner of my brewing process I will not be cutting.

 

[Dr_Deathweed]

I would have absolutely no concern about contamination or spoilage before pitching. I am with the Pol and believe this is actually more sanitary than a regular chill.

However, I am very skeptical of the quality of wort produced this way vs. traditional crash chill.

First, you will have zero cold break. I know some do not care about this, but the more science texts I read the more I am understanding that dropping those proteins and other materials out of the wort before hitting the fermenter and having them precipitated is very important. Can you still make good beer without it? Of course, but is at as great or as quality as it could have been? Well, I think the jury is hung.

Second, DMS is not he only compound that is produced after the boil that is stopped by a crash cool. Again these may be mostly driven off, but likely not all. The beer may be good, but is it the best it could have been?

I think this method is legit and could be a great option for some people. Personally, I brew beer for the challenge of making the best beer I can. If I just wanted something good and easy I would go to any number of great beer stores in my area, save some money, and have good beer. Cutting corners is something I try as hard as I can to avoid, and for me, no-chill is a corner of my brewing process I will not be cutting.

From what I have read, the zero cold break thing is untrue. Because the wort cools much slower, the break does not form quickly and becomes super fine and may stay in suspension. This could be an issue if you are pitching the following morning like The Pol does, but if you are storing, you have time on your side. Just like letting yeast flocculate, with a week of storage, those fine proteins settle out and you can carefully rack off of them into your fermenter. Proponents of this method claim that they get even clearer worts with this method since they can leave any hot or cold break trub behind before they even pitch the yeast.

You are correct, that much of the joy comes with making the best beer possible, but exploring new techniques has some merit and joy as well. Grant the convenience factor is huge in this case, but I would still rather sacrifice a small amount of quality to still be able to have some of my beer on tap during a period I will not be able to brew for awhile, rather than run dry and have none of my beer around and be forced to go back to the beer store. I, like many others on here would take a sub-optimal beer that I have made, over something that they picked up in a sixer at the local grocery. You may call it corner cutting, but I will continue to call it an experiment in new techniques and a way for some brewers that are unable to brew on a regular basis to still enjoy the fruits of their labors.

BTW, I would be interested as to what these other compounds that form after the boil are so I may look into them.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Hmmm.... that is interesting. I definitely agree with the clear wort after a settling effect. I am going to be using a settling tank after reading Noonan. I think that could have a big effect of beer flavor and quality.

I will have to do some more research but from everything I have read, the science points to a fast chilling to precipitate out the long chain proteins and that they do not easily come out of solution on their own. I could be wrong but would like some evidence to the contrary.

I definitely think this is a viable technique, I just don't think it fits my MO.

The book I got that out of is Noonan's New Lager Brewing. It is a great book. I can try to remember to look tonight when I get home.

EDIT: I should also note that I have an aversion to plastic. Completely unfounded, yes, but I can't help it.

 

[HenryHill]

Yeah, but unless you are using a lot of Pilsner malt and not boiling adequately, you wont have much SMM left.

I have always boiled for 90 minutes, since it is basically free to add 30 minutes to the boil. So going to "no chill" was easier, 90-100 minute boils leave extremely small ammounts of SMM in the wort, thusly, much less ability to produce DMS.

But like anything else, you have to try it. If any of us brewed the way that the "beer gods" said to back in the 1970's, can you imagine? Much has changed since then, much will change in the next 10-20 years.

I boil between 60 and 90 depending on what I'm brewing, and on big beers for complete utilization of hops. But I do not understand how, no matter electric or gas, that the last 30 minutes of any boil is free.

On the topic in general, I believe the initial reason to adopt No Chill is that Australia is a desert with little to no rainfall and water rationing. In America, even our deserts have cheap water, so it would seem only to be a matter of preference of style, and not any sort of advantage or method of making better beer.

 

[The Pol]

To answer Henrys post:

I dont think anyone claimed it made better beer, but equally good beer.

Electricity for 30 minutes is pennies, to me that is essentially "free" compared to burning propane. Propane was $4 a session for me, electricity is about $1, and I dont have to waste time, or gas to drive to refill tanks.

The cost of water isnt the issue, it never has been.

For me it saves water, not money. Much water? Naaah, but some that I dont need to use. Does it save time, yeah (chilling and cleaning of the chiller). Does it make brewing in the winter easier, yeah... (no running hoses outdoors to the spigot to run the chiller). Does it have other benefits, sure. I take 1-2qts. of the real wort from the brew and create a 24-hour starter for each brew now, because I can.

Is it for everyone no... but are the people that say it doenst work, wrong? Yep... have not run into a single one that has ever tried it. I was supposed to be dead from Botulism about a week ago, or be drinking corn flavored beer... neither came to fruition.

 

[chefmike]

In America, even our deserts have cheap water

Monetarily, perhaps. I personally believe we are paying a different price for our "cheap" water supply in many areas: the desert southwest being one, where buying a water tank to haul water to your house is the norm in many areas now. I worked for commercial locations that were trucking in water as wells went dry. In one location, the city dug a new well deeper than the location (northern AZ) and within weeks, the location's well went dry. How long until the CITY is trucking in water.

Similiar scenarios are being played out in south Florida, with salt intrusion on the aquifers, and here in metro Atlanta with growth of population and water use overtaxing the water supply and mandating water restrictions.

So while I do not think the world is ending and all water is dissapearing, I do not think the current retail price of water in the US is reflective of the true state of availability of potable drinking water.

No-chill is certainly a way to use a little less. So is using your chill water to clean, water your hops, saving it for another batch, etc.

Just my personal opinion, of course. But I always like to conserve resources, regardless of the price.

Really, I like no chill because I am LAZY though!

 

[The Pol]

Really, I like no chill because I am LAZY though!

Bingo!!

FWIW... it appears that myself and another HBT member running my rig design will be brewing my OC IAPA recipe, one NO chill and one IC whirlpool chilled. We will then send a sample of each to a BJCP judge that he knows and will have them compared.

Sound good?

 

[Evan!]

I read this whole thread for the first time just now, and I say: good luck, D-Weed! I see no reason why it wouldn't work. What I WOULD suggest is doing a side-by-side comparison of two batches, same recipe...on one half, just put the wort in the cube and purge the headspace with CO2. On the other half, do the same thing, and also add campden tabs. I really think that, given the amount of time you're storing these things, some k-meta will do you good. Then, when they're both done and fermented...see if there's really any difference.

 

[de_ronde]

I think this is a great technique, and I'm happy to learn about it. I could see where this helps to coordinate schedules of yeast starters and room in the primary fermenters. I would have brewed this saturday, but the beer in my primary needed a few more days, and I didn't feel like buying another big carboy.

I do have two questions:

1. What about oxygenation. Do you Aerate after you transfer from the cube to the primary?

2. This cube from Northern Brewer is 5 gallons. Do you think it would actually hold 5.5?
http://www.northernbrewer.com/pics/fullsize/cubes3.jpg

Thanks again! Good luck with your project!

 

[Lil' Sparky]

Hey Jason, good luck with this. You'll need to let me come over and sample one of your "Botulism Ales" when they're ready.

 

[Jonnio]

he only has enough room in his fermentation chamber for 10-gallons at a time, and ambient temps are too warm for his liking...

Personally, I'd just buy a couple tub and fill with water and ice bottles....

Yup. Or just use the bathtub with ice water. That's what I do. I think its probably possible but I would be too worried about botulism for one and pouring boiling wort into a container that wasn't really meant for temperatures that high could cause other issues.

 

[Dr_Deathweed]

FWIW... it appears that myself and another HBT member running my rig design will be brewing my OC IAPA recipe, one NO chill and one IC whirlpool chilled. We will then send a sample of each to a BJCP judge that he knows and will have them compared

Sound good?

I like this idea to quell any fears about quality difference and would be intrested to see any results! I myself will probably be selfish with my results and only share with myself, SWMBO, and anyone that wants to come over and pour one off tap

I read this whole thread for the first time just now, and I say: good luck, D-Weed! I see no reason why it wouldn't work. What I WOULD suggest is doing a side-by-side comparison of two batches, same recipe...on one half, just put the wort in the cube and purge the headspace with CO2. On the other half, do the same thing, and also add campden tabs. I really think that, given the amount of time you're storing these things, some k-meta will do you good. Then, when they're both done and fermented...see if there's really any difference.

I like the idea of running side by side. I will probably place a small order to AHB, and will pick up some campden tablets then. However with this first try I will probably forgo them for the sake of sample size; this way if one fouls and the other does not I don't have any other variables other than technique and sanitation. I probably will not purge the head space either, but instead try to completely fill the cubes, and use star-san foam from previous sanitation to help keep headspace clear.

I think this is a great technique, and I'm happy to learn about it. I could see where this helps to coordinate schedules of yeast starters and room in the primary fermenters. I would have brewed this saturday, but the beer in my primary needed a few more days, and I didn't feel like buying another big carboy

I do have two questions:

1. What about oxygenation. Do you Aerate after you transfer from the cube to the primary?

2. This cube from Northern Brewer is 5 gallons. Do you think it would actually hold 5.5?
http://www.northernbrewer.com/pics/fullsize/cubes3.jpg

Thanks again! Good luck with your project!

1. Hot side aeration is a concern, but by filling slowly with little to no splashing from the bottom of the container should minimize this. As far as oxygen permeability of the cube, it is the same material as the plastic bucket fermenters, and will have at least similar permeability. I imagine that oxidation through this method would really only be a concern if I was storing long term, which I do not plan to do.

2. Those look like the collapsible kind, and my main concern would be the plastic holding up to the boiling temps. Other than that, I can not say about their volume as I have never used one.

Hey Jason, good luck with this. You'll need to let me come over and sample one of your "Botulism Ales" when they're ready.

Your on! If I am going to go, I may as well take someone out with me

EDIT: I have no idea why those extra quote tags are in there....

 

[Saccharomyces]

I myself will probably be selfish with my results and only share with myself, SWMBO, and anyone that wants to come over and pour one off tap

Oooh oooh that sounds worth the drive from P-ville. I promise a full review.

 

[no-chiller]

Hello all, Im in Australia and No-Chill also, I personally have had no issues no-chilling and not had an infection due to it after 10 AG batches, for myself, I find it to be quite convenient as I am really in no hurry to get it down to temp and pitch yeast, also, I usually brew 1 batch one day and another batch another day and once at ambient temp, I put in my Fermentation fridge to bring down to ferment temp of 18degrees C. I then can pour both no-chilled brews into there carboys, pitch yeast and put both batches in to ferment at the same time(fridge holds 2 carboys) at the same temperature.

Another plus for it, is that you can have your no-chill cube ready to go at the right time that your yeast starter is ready to be pitched, just pour into carboy and pitch yeast, no guessing.. Some fellow brewers over here have stored there no-chill cubes for months at a time with no ill effects, that said, they probably shouldnt be stored at excessive temperatures, but for myself, I usually am pitching my yeast within 7 days.. There are a few Suppliers over here that sell the exact same thing as FWK(fresh wort kits) for about $40Aus, it gives brewers that want to try AG beer an opportunity to do so without having to actually brew it, just pour into fermenter and pitch yeast... Check out this link for some info Shop Online - CraftBrewer

The other consideration with no-chilling, is your hopping schedule, because the wort is at very hot temperatures for longer, the chances for your later flavour/aroma additions actually becoming bittering additions is more, due to the hops being in contact with hot wort for longer.. To counteract this, I did my bittering addition(90min boil) at 45min and the flavour addition(@ 10min) goes into the cube before draining the hot wort into it, I then get my aroma profile by dry-hopping in the cube after 7days of fermentation..

Yesterday, I used a 250micron hop-sock for the first time in my boil and now will maybe have to go back to normal hop additions as all the hop matter is contained within the hopsock and is stopped from entering the cube and thus causing more bitterness from being exposed to the hot wort for an extended period..

And in my opinion from deathweeds question on AussieHomeBrewer, I dont see an issue with storing for extended periods at room temperature(with good sanitation and squeezing the air out of the cube) or if you have the space, couldnt see an issue with refridgeration of the cube.. Alot of guys over here can have up to 10 cubes waiting to be fermented, just keeping on top I guess and less chances of running out of beer..

 

[de_ronde]

Hello all, Im in Australia and No-Chill also, I personally have had no issues no-chilling and not had an infection due to it after 10 AG batches

Cheers and thanks for the info! Welcome to HBT!

 

[McKBrew]

Thanks to the Aussie for chiming in. Great information.

 

[Fatgodzilla]

No-Chill Critics

Some research into the no-chill method will bring up some criticism of the method. Arguments against include
- Beer haziness
- Problems with long term beer stability
- Loss of hop aroma
- Increased bitterness
- Leeching plastic
- DMS production
- And in the extreme the risk of botulism (a deadly anaerobic bacteria)

I have not encountered any of these problems in the beer I have made nor have members of the Illawarra Brewers Union who employ the method almost exclusively.

I was getting worried Round 2 of the Great Botulisn debate was going to erupt !

G'day again brewers! For any noobies to the no-chill debate, relax, have a beer and decide, very simply, will it be easier for you to employ no-chill ? If yes, do it. If not, don't.

As said in THE other thread, I'm a member of the Illawarra Brewers Union that seemingly popularised no-chill cubing. (go to our website for photos). I got into AG at the same time I joined the IBUs & I saw how the boys did it and assumed that's how everyone did it ! We have professional brewers and some of the most awarded home brewers in Australia in the club and I've never heard any of the nay saying dribble some of you ferals are sprouting against no chill. Was it Pol who said the biggest nay sayers have never no chilled ?

This aint an overnight thing in Australia, but a tried and tested process.

To get back to Deadwood's original quey here and on AHB, store the cube sensibly and you'll have no worries. Best out of sunlight, in a cool location if possible and it should last for ages. Not that you want to keep it for ages, for goodness sake wort in a cube is wasted ... ferment the bugger and enjoy the brew. A few months, no worries !

Get on with it lads and don't go kissing an Mexicans any time soon !


PS - did I tell you the IBUs are conditioning real ale in the same types of plastic cubes and serving same through hand pumps ! True .. go to our website for photos ! Bloody good things those cubes.. no Aussie boy should be without one !

 

[Flattop]

Fatgodzilla is right, cubing is great, i don't know if you guys know what a wine cask is but Aussie's invented that too, ohh and refrigeration and the rotating clothesline oh and the lawnmower.... but then again we do stuff like that...
For ppl who want to believe that beer is only made one way... ok that's cool
Some ppl crush grapes with their feet and some use machines... they both make wine..
(no offense meant, i just mean there are other ways to do stuff)
I'm sure that they continue to pump out high quality brews... great!
That doesn't mean we can't if we cube.... are they worse, i don't know....
Are they good brews? YES!
This process is not bleeding edge, it's tried and true, it works and as you guys haven't heard of the great Aussie botulism infection of 2008/2009 i guess it hasn't killed anyone yet. But we don't brew close to sneezing pigs.....
I've pumped out 4 cubes in the last month, none have been stored long term as i don't have that much beer left after summer had to crank up production.
I moved to all grain when i understood how simple it was
I brew with my grain in a bag :0 after mash i lift the bag out, no sparge, boil and add hops and i drain into a cube.... I can pitch when i want and i use a plastic fermenter with plastic wrap and a rubber band instead of an airlock... equally effective..
Simple setup, makes good beer.... now if i can talk the missus into making kebabs life would be almost perfect...

 

[The Pol]

Gday mate!

No chill is great. I have a FULL writeup and photos coming to Brewer's Friend, home brewing resources this month. Mine is currently kegged and even three weeks after pitching yeast, it is one of my tastiest beers.

Myself and another HBT memeber are going to brew identical brews on identical systems. No Chill one, whirlpool IC chill the other, and send to a BJCP judge to have them judged, to get some feedback.

I am selling my glass 6.5 gal. carboy and IC...

 

[Dr_Deathweed]

Keeping up with the thread on aussiehomebrewer.com, here is a link to one of their original discussions on this topic:
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=9354

And here is a reply about botulism from an angle i did not even think about:

I think you can take heart with the Botulism argument - in the fact that at high temperatures the HDPE is quite permeable to oxygen. One of the reasons to squeeze out the air.. its getting quite enough oxygen contact through the material of the cube, without extra from the headspace. All you need to do is limit it a bit when the wort is hot enough for your traditional Hot Side Aeration to occur - As the wort cools down enough to actually absorb 02, the hdpe is still so permeable to the gas that the wort is far far from anerobic enough to be an issue.

I don't have figures to back this up (I am in the research phase of obtaining them)... but lets put it this way. Would you have a botulism concern if you put your hot wort into an open Carboy filled to the top (heated so it didn't shatter) closed with a bit of tinfoil?? Not sealed, just loose like a starter. I'm guessing no-body would have issue with that.

But - how much oxygen is actually making it through the couple of square inches of surface wort? None through the sides because glass is not permeable. Transfer rates of gas through liquid interfaces are pretty low without agitation. But I still doubt anyone would worry. Whether they should or not is a different question.

Now compare that to a sealed cube - sure, there is no actual liquid to air interface... but you have better than a square meter of surface area, which is Atransmitting oxygen at 58cc per square meter per 24hrs per mm of thickness at 25°C - At 35°C this rises to 111cc. Who knows at higher temps. After a couple of days at 25°C - a standard cube might as well be in an open bucket from an oxygen levels perspective. Its saturated. And our cube has had a flying head start at higher temperatures while it cools down.

If anyone has better transfer rate figures, or can tell me what the transfer rate of oxygen across an undisturbed liquid/gas interface might be. That would be great. I am also hunting the levels of oxygen needed to inhibit Botulism spores.

I strongly suspect though I don't know for sure - that your sealed cube is actually as safe or safer than an open bucket made out of glass or stainless would be.

It was also mentioned over there that purging with CO2 is pretty pointless since their method involves squeezing all the free air out while the cube is hot and the plastic malleable. This allows pasteurization of all surfaces while the wort is still above 180 F, and minimal chance of any spoilage.

I will do some reading about using campden or other preservitives, but as of now they are looking unessecary.

From all this information, all doubts about this project are rapidly dissipating, and I look forward to doing my first no chill in a couple days!

 

[Pangea]

I just saw the title to this thread "no chill brewing". Is this the opposite of Coors Light "frost brewed"?

 

[Saccharomyces]

I just saw the title to this thread "no chill brewing". Is this the opposite of Coors Light "frost brewed"?

ROFL..