Experienced in beer, but first batch of kit wine coming soon. Stainless Kegmenter?

[jdubdvdt]

I brew beer mainly, but I got a Finer Wines kit from Label Peelers to test it out. I ferment beer in 1/4bbl Sanke keg with a floating dip tube and a ball lock conversion using a tri-clamp. Should I buy a glass or plastic fermenter to do a 6 gallon batch? I can't see the exact volumes in a keg and I think it would be silly to run it into a separate vessel (like my kettle) to get the volume right.

In the kegmenter I would spund it at ~0psi just to use the ball lock as an airlock, but I don't want a carbonated wine and not sure how I would check clarity or even get the pre-fermentation volume correct. The instructions from Finer Wines give me a massive OG range so I don't think weighing is an option like it is with my beer.

1. What would you recommend for the best way to measure the pre-fermentation volume?

Should I make a dipstick and make volume markings on it?​

Should I weigh the keg as I am adding the make up water?​

Should I use a separate vessel to get the volumes correct and then transfer into the kegmenter?​

2. Should I still plan to de-gas the wine? I have read it is outdated practice and I do not want to oxidize my wine.
3. Can I transfer to a 5 gallon keg and 1 gallon keg (closed transfer) for secondary fermentation/racking onto finings? I could transfer to another kegmenter, but I would have to add CO2 or a bunch of glass marbles to get rid of the extra headspace. Or should I be looking into racking into a glass fermenter so I can see the clarity?

I have plenty of other questions, it seems pretty easy compared to beer. I am planning to sanitize using Star San and use RO water with the kit. It is a Sauvignon Blanc kit from their Tavola series.

Thank you for any insight.

 

[Yooper]

I brew beer mainly, but I got a Finer Wines kit from Label Peelers to test it out. I ferment beer in 1/4bbl Sanke keg with a floating dip tube and a ball lock conversion using a tri-clamp. Should I buy a glass or plastic fermenter to do a 6 gallon batch? I can't see the exact volumes in a keg and I think it would be silly to run it into a separate vessel (like my kettle) to get the volume right.

In the kegmenter I would spund it at ~0psi just to use the ball lock as an airlock, but I don't want a carbonated wine and not sure how I would check clarity or even get the pre-fermentation volume correct. The instructions from Finer Wines give me a massive OG range so I don't think weighing is an option like it is with my beer.

1. What would you recommend for the best way to measure the pre-fermentation volume?

Should I make a dipstick and make volume markings on it?​

Should I weigh the keg as I am adding the make up water?​

Should I use a separate vessel to get the volumes correct and then transfer into the kegmenter?​

2. Should I still plan to de-gas the wine? I have read it is outdated practice and I do not want to oxidize my wine.
3. Can I transfer to a 5 gallon keg and 1 gallon keg (closed transfer) for secondary fermentation/racking onto finings? I could transfer to another kegmenter, but I would have to add CO2 or a bunch of glass marbles to get rid of the extra headspace. Or should I be looking into racking into a glass fermenter so I can see the clarity?

I have plenty of other questions, it seems pretty easy compared to beer. I am planning to sanitize using Star San and use RO water with the kit. It is a Sauvignon Blanc kit from their Tavola series.

Thank you for any insight.

I make a lot of wine- more wine than beer actually, and make both kits and wine from whole fruit.

For kits, those make 6 gallons of wine. I don’t ferment it in a keg, but since the instructions usually have you mix bentonite and hot water, stir to dissolve, then stir in the juice, then water up to 6 gallons, then add the grape skins and grape seeds (if your kit has them) and then oak powder/fine chips, I would definitely mix it up outside of anything that could clog with those items. I’ve never tried it with a floating dip tube, but it would likely be an issue since you also have to stir the must daily. I’d probably either go with the old school bucket until secondary, and use the keg enter for secondary. One of my Finer kits from labelpeelers had both two bags of skins AND seeds, while one only had the skins and oak powder in primary but no way would I try to stir/mix/deal with a keg enter and all that stuff in it that comes to the top. The finer wine kits had me add oak cubes to secondary, so that would work in a kegmenter.

2. I almost never degas these days….BUT I also don’t do 6 weeks for a 6 week wine kit, so the wine sits in a warm area for at least a couple of months and usually doesn’t need degassing when I’m ready to package. I think I’ve had one or two wines that needed degassing at packaging for some reason, and they weren’t even kit wines.

3. Not really- but I don’t use the finings anyway, so you definitely could do that if skipping the finings. Otherwise, it’s add XXX amount in each vessel, stir, etc, so if you’re going to use finings, I’d do it right in secondary and then rack to packaging.

 

[jdubdvdt]

Thank you for your detailed insight! Definitely taking your recommendations.

I will see if I can get an old school bucket and then use the kegs for secondary. Then probably not going to degas. And I will likely use the finings in secondary since it's a white wine and I may let it sit in secondary a little longer than the instructions suggest.

 

[mashdar]

I'm in the same boat - browsing kits to make some wine for a relative that doesn't drink beer.

The thing that worries me is indications that O2 exposure is needed to avoid "reductive" flavors. Some of the descriptions just sound like yeast stress.

I'm planning on giving some extra O2 to the yeast mid fermentation to keep them happy, based on very limited reading/understanding.

Any thoughts?

 

[Closet Fermenter]

I’m primarily a brewer, but I keep wine going most of the time. I ferment in glass carboys, except when I start off with fresh fruit and primary in a bucket before moving to a carboy. If I am using juice, I rarely rack it to a secondary, but just let it work/age until it clears.
Then I use a gravity closed transfer to a corny keg. I pressurize/push the wine with nitrogen. The wine just sits/ages in the keg until I decide I want a bottle. I fill a bottle and use one of the hand operated vacuum pumps with the check-valved corks to degass it as necessary. If it is to be given away or taken somewhere later; I cork it. If for personal use; I chill it in the fridge.

Nothing sophisticated, but it works. It was a real epiphany when I realized that, as with my brewing, I could just keg my wine and get rid of all the bottles and escape all associated issues with cleaning/storing/cleaning again/bottling/corking bottles and dealing with the occasional broken glass. The storage footprint for 10 gallons of wine is that of two corny kegs. Bottled in 750 ml bottles, that’s going to be right at 50 bottles!
Sometimes, I have 15 or 20 gallons around.

I don’t fault anyone who just bottles; it’s a better visual and I would do more of it if I had the right setup. I heard of one fellow who cut the end out of a storage tank and buried it upright on his property. He installed a spiral staircase down the center and lined the inside of the tank with stacked concrete blocks. Each hole in the blocks held a bottle of wine. WOW!! I am hoping to get a chance to see this, as I have a family member who knows this guy and has seen this setup.

 

[Broothru]

I make a lot of wine- more wine than beer actually, and make both kits and wine from whole fruit.

For kits, those make 6 gallons of wine. I don’t ferment it in a keg, but since the instructions usually have you mix bentonite and hot water, stir to dissolve, then stir in the juice, then water up to 6 gallons, then add the grape skins and grape seeds (if your kit has them) and then oak powder/fine chips, I would definitely mix it up outside of anything that could clog with those items. I’ve never tried it with a floating dip tube, but it would likely be an issue since you also have to stir the must daily. I’d probably either go with the old school bucket until secondary, and use the keg enter for secondary. One of my Finer kits from labelpeelers had both two bags of skins AND seeds, while one only had the skins and oak powder in primary but no way would I try to stir/mix/deal with a keg enter and all that stuff in it that comes to the top. The finer wine kits had me add oak cubes to secondary, so that would work in a kegmenter.

2. I almost never degas these days….BUT I also don’t do 6 weeks for a 6 week wine kit, so the wine sits in a warm area for at least a couple of months and usually doesn’t need degassing when I’m ready to package. I think I’ve had one or two wines that needed degassing at packaging for some reason, and they weren’t even kit wines.

3. Not really- but I don’t use the finings anyway, so you definitely could do that if skipping the finings. Otherwise, it’s add XXX amount in each vessel, stir, etc, so if you’re going to use finings, I’d do it right in secondary and then rack to packaging.

I also (used to, at least) make/made more wine than beer. I used glass carboys for years until I grew wary after breaking a full one filled with 6 gallons of Chenin Blanc. I switched to a 7 gallon SS BrewTech stainless steel Brew Bucket after that disaster, and never looked back.

It also gave me ‘cover’ for convincing SWMBO’d that I needed a Unitank to brew my beer, since ‘her’ wine was occupying ‘my’ beer fermentation vessel. Win-win!

 

[jdubdvdt]

Forgot about those brew buckets. I switched away from glass this time last year when my brew hauler buckle sheared and I dropped my Helles. I got the kegs at a bargain for pressure fermenting and has been awesome. I'll look into those SS brew buckets again.

 

[Closet Fermenter]

I also (used to, at least) make/made more wine than beer. I used glass carboys for years until I grew wary after breaking a full one filled with 6 gallons of Chenin Blanc. I switched to a 7 gallon SS BrewTech stainless steel Brew Bucket after that disaster, and never looked back.

It also gave me ‘cover’ for convincing SWMBO’d that I needed a Unitank to brew my beer, since ‘her’ wine was occupying ‘my’ beer fermentation vessel. Win-win!

Very seriously considering going with plastic carboys. No breakage/spillage so far, but the risk and the weight is an issue. I have recently passed on several glass carboys with warnings to the recipients. One was well aware as she had already broken one previously.
I could go the stainless route, but I am mesmerized by watching my wines fermenting. It’s kinda like watching a lava lamp back in the’60’s when I was a kid.

I also like the way the carboy offers a visual check on the clarity. That, and the fact that wine ties up the fermenter for so long. I have a number of carboys, so it’s never been an issue. However, I have started using a couple kegmenters for brewing and may use my old stainless Chapman fermenters for wine.

 

[mashdar]

Very seriously considering going with plastic carboys. No breakage/spillage so far, but the risk and the weight is an issue. I have recently passed on several glass carboys with warnings to the recipients. One was well aware as she had already broken one previously.
I could go the stainless route, but I am mesmerized by watching my wines fermenting. It’s kinda like watching a lava lamp back in the’60’s when I was a kid.

I also like the way the carboy offers a visual check on the clarity. That, and the fact that wine ties up the fermenter for so long. I have a number of carboys, so it’s never been an issue. However, I have started using a couple kegmenters for brewing and may use my old stainless Chapman fermenters for wine.

The PET carboys work great. Basically no down sides if you soak with a cleaner immediately after emptying. If you're aging for a long time, they should have much lower O2 ingress than the big-mouth stuff. (A silicone bung would perform poorly, though.)

 

[Broothru]

I still age wine in glass carboys, but they are stored in a dark under-stairs closet in our finished basement with a constant temperature in the low 60sF, and only get moved when it’s time to bottle. I check the liquid levels in the airlocks regularly to prevent unwanted O2 incursion. Right now I have (4) 6.5 gallon carboys ready to be bottled. They’ve been aging on French Oak staves from 2 to 4 years, and periodic sampling has shown them to all be terrific.

Very seriously considering going with plastic carboys. No breakage/spillage so far, but the risk and the weight is an issue. I have recently passed on several glass carboys with warnings to the recipients. One was well aware as she had already broken one previously.
I could go the stainless route, but I am mesmerized by watching my wines fermenting. It’s kinda like watching a lava lamp back in the’60’s when I was a kid.

I also like the way the carboy offers a visual check on the clarity. That, and the fact that wine ties up the fermenter for so long. I have a number of carboys, so it’s never been an issue. However, I have started using a couple kegmenters for brewing and may use my old stainless Chapman fermenters for wine.

 

[Closet Fermenter]

The PET carboys work great. Basically no down sides if you soak with a cleaner immediately after emptying. If you're aging for a long time, they should have much lower O2 ingress than the big-mouth stuff. (A silicone bung would perform poorly, though.)

Right. I picked up a 5gallon PET carboy awhile back in a Craigslist package deal. I let it sit around for over a year before I actually decided to try it. I was very pleased with the results and decided that I will try to get some more. I usually transfer to a keg via closed transfer as soon as the bubbling stops and it clears up a bit. I pressurize the keg with nitrogen.

 

[jdubdvdt]

I was really into better bottles about 10-12 years ago even for my beer. Does anyone make something as good?

 

[mashdar]

I was really into better bottles about 10-12 years ago even for my beer. Does anyone make something as good?

Almost any PET carboy will perform similarly. IIRC Better Bottle had ridges for stability. The "vintage" brand everyone carries now is smooth - easier to clean but deflects a little when lifting. A harness helps avoid suckback.

 

[DuncB]

I use a PET conical fermenter ( fermentasaurus ), got it second hand.
This works well no floating dip tube but Ispindel to monitor the gravity and temperature.
Come the end of ferment I drop the yeast from the collection bottle out, add the sod met and then the finings and can check the wine has gone clear. The yeast drops well into the collection bottle. So no need to transfer to another vessel.
At the bottling stage I close the valve, put the adapter on instead of the bottle and the tubing and bottling wand. Much easier than carboys and buckets with less loss.

Regarding the bentonite I put some warm water in a sanitised PET soft drinks bottle then add the bentonite to that and shake to mix, I add this to the kit juice and water in the fermenter. Tipping the bentonite into the fermenter I got far worse mixing and dissolving.

 

[Yooper]

I'm in the same boat - browsing kits to make some wine for a relative that doesn't drink beer.

The thing that worries me is indications that O2 exposure is needed to avoid "reductive" flavors. Some of the descriptions just sound like yeast stress.

I'm planning on giving some extra O2 to the yeast mid fermentation to keep them happy, based on very limited reading/understanding.

Any thoughts?

I don't do that- in fact, I use a minimal amount of sulfite at every other racking (and at bottling) to ensure that I don't oxidize my wine. During primary, I will stir, knock down the cap, etc, but once I'm at 1.010 or below, I take great steps to reduce potential oxidation.