exchange of rare rhizomes

[Sylvain]

hello !
I’m looking for someone who owns Amalia, Medusa(Multihead), Neo1 and Willow Creek.
I live in France, and even though these varieties are not protected by a patent, we don’t have access to them in France.
In exchange, I can offer exclusive German and French varieties( Tardif de Bourgogne, Petit Blanc, Mandarina Bavaria, Ariana, Hallertau Blanc...).

ps: I believe that if you live in the USA it is impossible (borders and customs officers)

thank you very much.


"je recherche quelqu'un qui possède Amalia, Medusa(Multihead), Neo1 et Willow Creek. j'habite en France et même si ces variétés ne sont pas protégés par un brevet, nous n'y avons pas accès en France.
En échange, je peux proposer des variétés exclusives Allemandes et Françaises.
ps : je crois que si vous habitez aux USA c'est impossible (frontières et douaniers)
merci beaucoup."

 

[Sylvain]

hi there is no one who wants varieties of rare hops?

 

[bonecitybrewco]

hi there is no one who wants varieties of rare hops?

I think the problem is that the only places I have seen them for sale are in the USA as either rhizomes or field grade plants. Given their origin is the USA, this makes sense.

 

[Sylvain]

yes but maybe someone has a permit to export from the USA to foreign countries

 

[Northern_Brewer]

The problem is not so much the exporting from the US, as the importing. Any country with a commercial hop industry will pretty much ban any kind of imports of hops, except perhaps tissue culture.

So there are no permits to export hop plants/rhizomes into the EU - and hopefully none will ever be issued.

 

[Sylvain]

In Europe we have Cascade, Chinook, Galena etc... it was necessary to have an export permit for them to travel from the USA to Europe? So why not the four Neomexicanus varieties?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

You'll notice they're all "old" varieties, and I'd assume (but don't know for certain) that the ones in Europe all come from a single importation, probably of tissue culture between government labs. You don't get Cashmere for instance, and I've never seen Comet in the UK (but I think Germany has small amounts of Comet).

Each country is different, but I suggest you talk to Houblons de France about the rules and what might be possible.

 

[JAReeves]

I would ship some of my rhizomes to you, however, even if they made it to you (not confiscated), you may regret receiving them-remember phylloxera?

Touts les vines son Americain maintenant.

Perdon mi Francais, parceque je ne parle pas en 30 ans .

 

[Apimyces]

The problem is not so much the exporting from the US, as the importing. Any country with a commercial hop industry will pretty much ban any kind of imports of hops, except perhaps tissue culture.

So there are no permits to export hop plants/rhizomes into the EU - and hopefully none will ever be issued.

Indeed, exports are rarely ever restricted. Imports are. Legal imports generally require, as far as I can tell, both a document from the country of origin and the country of import.

That's what's required of me to legally import hops from Europe into Canada, anyhow.

Some countries have more restrictions, sometimes nation-wide, sometimes locally. I believe the US has very strict rules for importing hops, especially into the PNW. In Canada, we don't, importing hops to Québec just requires the most basic requirements: an import permit and a phytosanitary certificate stating the plants are exempt of soil. It basically doesn't get any less restrictive than that. Many other crops, though, I cannot import at all, or require much stricter requirements (proof of exemption of a number of diseases).

How difficult it is to import hops really varies by jurisdiction.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I would ship some of my rhizomes to you, however, even if they made it to you (not confiscated), you may regret receiving them-remember phylloxera?

Touts les vines son Americain maintenant.

Actually not true - most vines are European Vitis vinifera grafted onto North American rootstocks. But there are some odd pockets of ungrafted vines - notably in Chile, but there's also some in the UK. Phylloxera doesn't like sandy soil, which is why the main French research station and vine gene bank was set up outside Montpellier, where they're pretty much growing vines on a beach.

 

[JAReeves]

Actually not true - most vines are European Vitis vinifera grafted onto North American rootstocks. But there are some odd pockets of ungrafted vines - notably in Chile, but there's also some in the UK. Phylloxera doesn't like sandy soil, which is why the main French research station and vine gene bank was set up outside Montpellier, where they're pretty much growing vines on a beach.

Phylloxerae are a NA grapevine parasite, but it’s just an invasive species example.

there may be some bacteria or parasite that we could import/export and that’s not really cool to do to someone else’s country.

New Zealand is finally getting some smaller islands rat-free so the bird populations can come back and Hawaii same problem. Florida with pythons, etc.

 

[Serrabrewclub]

hi there is no one who wants varieties of rare hops?

Yes looking into how to ship and receive

 

[Sylvain]

Yes, it’s a big problem with the USA

 

[royger]

Where you able to find some neomexicanus in Europe? I would also be interested, as my place is quite dry.

 

[Apimyces]

Where you able to find some neomexicanus in Europe? I would also be interested, as my place is quite dry.

He grew some from seed.

 

[Sylvain]

yes, I started with seeds. you can also order from GLH plants of Amalia, Neo1, Willow Creek and Medusa(Multihead)

 

[royger]

yes, I started with seeds. you can also order from GLH plants of Amalia, Neo1, Willow Creek and Medusa(Multihead)

GLH is not an option for me because I live in Spain. Where did you get the seeds from? I would assume they would also ship to Spain if they did ship to France. Thanks!

 

[Sylvain]

Seeds from USDA Grin-Global

 

[Apimyces]

I don't think GHL exports to other countries, but if you get an import permit I can ship you some from Canada.

 

[royger]

Seeds from USDA Grin-Global

Do you have the reference for Multihead/Medusa in the USDA database? I've found Amallia, but I don't seem to be able to find Medusa/Multihead. Sorry if it's obvious to others. Also USDA Grin seems to require some kind of educational/research aim, which I think I could request as I'm not sure anyone has tried growing neomexicana hops here.

I don't think GHL exports to other countries, but if you get an import permit I can ship you some from Canada.

Thanks, that's very kind. I have however no idea which kind of permit I would need, also I assume the shipping price from Canada to Spain would be very high.

 

[PCABrewing]

Phylloxerae are a NA grapevine parasite, but it’s just an invasive species example.

there may be some bacteria or parasite that we could import/export and that’s not really cool to do to someone else’s country.

New Zealand is finally getting some smaller islands rat-free so the bird populations can come back and Hawaii same problem. Florida with pythons, etc.

As much of a PITA it is, and while they may seem overly-restrictive, there are many examples of problems caused to agriculture by new species introduction. Whether it be the target of the import or a secondary inclusion (insects, fungi) a great deal of damage has been caused even by imports that were legally allowed.
A lot of desirable genetic variation is maintained by geographic separation.
Important industries could be negatively impacted. Please don't try to "work-around" the restrictions for your own gain.
I'm sure no one here is but it's worth a reminder. We all have a lot to lose.

 

[PCABrewing]

He grew some from seed.

From seed, is he sure it is genetically accurate?

 

[Apimyces]

Do you have the reference for Multihead/Medusa in the USDA database? I've found Amallia, but I don't seem to be able to find Medusa/Multihead. Sorry if it's obvious to others. Also USDA Grin seems to require some kind of educational/research aim, which I think I could request as I'm not sure anyone has tried growing neomexicana hops here.



Thanks, that's very kind. I have however no idea which kind of permit I would need, also I assume the shipping price from Canada to Spain would be very high.

The USDA ARS GRIN collection is mostly old stuff, as with the other gene banks. Not a lot of the more recent named varieties in there.

I'm not super familiar with Spain/EU's import regulations. Probably would require an import permit. Importing from Czechia to Canada cost me about 35$ for the import permit and 200$ for the overnight shipping. 10-20$-ish regular airmail would probably work just as good, though.

From seed, is he sure it is genetically accurate?

Well, yes, because it's not a set genotype, but a sampling of a given wild population. The seeds will have genes deriving from their native genepool. The odds of contamination by imported hops is fairly low, almost nil for most of these wild populations that are far from any commercial hop growing. In any case, even in the incredibly unlikely case of genetic contamination by imported genetics, you're still having at least a (probably large) fraction of native genes.

So it's just up to your aims. If you want to grow "Multihead" from seed, no, hops don't grow true to seeds. But if you want "neomexicanus hops", absolutely no problems with using genes.

Neomexicanus hops are kinda nice for their novelty factor, they do tend to exhibit traits not common in the european cultivars, but I can't say on average they are all that impressive. That said, still, if breeding's the goal, the average is pretty moot, you just need a few exceptional seedlings to either release or use for further breeding, and I do have some of my breeding lines that tap greatly into (a no longer available accession of) neomexicanus hops.

The GRIN is for breeding, research, or educational purposes, though. The folks at Corvallis don't run a super rigorous background check, but it should be used in good faith and with serious intent to share the genetics in some form or another down the road. Still it does happen that they refuse distribution of germplasm to non-professionals.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I'm not super familiar with Spain/EU's import regulations. Probably would require an import permit. Importing from Czechia to Canada cost me about 35$ for the import permit and 200$ for the overnight shipping. 10-20$-ish regular airmail would probably work just as good, though.

Given that once a plant is inside the EU borders, it's more or less free to go to the Hallertau, Bohemia or wherever, the rules for Spain are effectively the same as they would be for major hop-growing areas. So you don't mess about with this stuff, you do it by the book.

I don't know what the exact rules would be, but at the very least you'd need a phytosanitary certificate from the Canadian authorities aside from the usual import paperwork. I think verticillium is a named pathogen in the EU rules, so you might need a separate certificate for that.

Talk to your local plant health people about what's required, and don't be tempted to be clever about it - these rules are in place for very good reasons, protecting €bn's of economic activity (and about half of the world's hop acreage).

 

[Apimyces]

Given that once a plant is inside the EU borders, it's more or less free to go to the Hallertau, Bohemia or wherever, the rules for Spain are effectively the same as they would be for major hop-growing areas. So you don't mess about with this stuff, you do it by the book.

I don't know what the exact rules would be, but at the very least you'd need a phytosanitary certificate from the Canadian authorities aside from the usual import paperwork. I think verticillium is a named pathogen in the EU rules, so you might need a separate certificate for that.

Talk to your local plant health people about what's required, and don't be tempted to be clever about it - these rules are in place for very good reasons, protecting €bn's of economic activity (and about half of the world's hop acreage).

Now that you mention it, I do think I required a phytosanitary certificate from the exporter in Czech Republic, though I don't think I paid for it. I believe a canadian phytosanitary certificate runs around 70$. Though I can't garantee that cost isn't modulated per requirements of the phyto.

I didn't look up Spain, because while I can communicate in Spanish I wouldn't consider myself fluent enough to look up regulations in it, but to give an idea, since EU regulations are probably harmonized in this regard to great extent, this is what France asks:

Champignons et oomycètes
ORNQ	Végétaux destinés à la plantation (genre ou espèce)	Seuil pour les végétaux destinés à la plantation
Verticillium dahliae Kleb. [VERTDA]	Humulus lupulus L.	0 %
Verticillium nonalfalfae Inderbitzin, H.W. Platt, Bostock, R.M. Davis & K.V. Subbarao [VERTNO]	Humulus lupulus L.	0 %

In contrast, Canada just asks that European hops be exempt of soil.

Why Europe cares about those two species of verticillium when they are both endemic to Europe, though, I can't say.

 

[royger]

Now that you mention it, I do think I required a phytosanitary certificate from the exporter in Czech Republic, though I don't think I paid for it. I believe a canadian phytosanitary certificate runs around 70$. Though I can't garantee that cost isn't modulated per requirements of the phyto.

I didn't look up Spain, because while I can communicate in Spanish I wouldn't consider myself fluent enough to look up regulations in it, but to give an idea, since EU regulations are probably harmonized in this regard to great extent, this is what France asks:

Champignons et oomycètes
ORNQ	Végétaux destinés à la plantation (genre ou espèce)	Seuil pour les végétaux destinés à la plantation
Verticillium dahliae Kleb. [VERTDA]	Humulus lupulus L.	0 %
Verticillium nonalfalfae Inderbitzin, H.W. Platt, Bostock, R.M. Davis & K.V. Subbarao [VERTNO]	Humulus lupulus L.	0 %

In contrast, Canada just asks that European hops be exempt of soil.

Why Europe cares about those two species of verticillium when they are both endemic to Europe, though, I can't say.

Thanks for all the information. I assume we are still speaking about sending seeds right?

I will try to figure out what do I need in order to import. While there are wild hops in some regions, hop fields in Spain are not very common, mainly due to the weather in most regions not being suitable for most commercial hop breeds, and the fact that most people only drink well-known lager brands, so there isn't a lot of local demand for different hop varieties.

I wanted to give a try to some neomexicanus (preferable a fruity one as that's what I tend to use most) because it's the only variety that could survive at my place, but if it's really a lot of hassle (or money) I'm not sure it's worth the investment, partly because I have zero experience in growing hops.

 

[Sylvain]

I can have Neomexicanus mother seeds, I’m in France, contact me in MP

 

[Northern_Brewer]

In contrast, Canada just asks that European hops be exempt of soil.

The Canadian hop industry isn't worth protecting.... Whereas if you were in NZ it is almost impossible to move hop material across borders.

Why Europe cares about those two species of verticillium when they are both endemic to Europe, though, I can't say.

Paranoia about letting in new pathovars/races.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Thanks for all the information. I assume we are still speaking about sending seeds right?

It will depend on local regulations - even within the EU there's some restrictions at the country level, so France to Spain may not be legally possible. I did have a look at getting a few things from Germany before Brexit cut us off, and from what I could tell it was effectively impossible to import DE->UK even pre-Brexit. The rules tend to be very hard on things like rhizomes that tend to have soil attached, as that's how some of the real nasties like verticilium spread.

They tend to be a bit more relaxed about seeds, and it's possible that since hops aren't normally propagated from seed that there's no specific regulation of hop seeds beyond the normal rules for any seed.

 

[Apimyces]

Thanks for all the information. I assume we are still speaking about sending seeds right?

I will try to figure out what do I need in order to import. While there are wild hops in some regions, hop fields in Spain are not very common, mainly due to the weather in most regions not being suitable for most commercial hop breeds, and the fact that most people only drink well-known lager brands, so there isn't a lot of local demand for different hop varieties.

I wanted to give a try to some neomexicanus (preferable a fruity one as that's what I tend to use most) because it's the only variety that could survive at my place, but if it's really a lot of hassle (or money) I'm not sure it's worth the investment, partly because I have zero experience in growing hops.

No, I'm talking about unrooted cuttings. Rooted cuttings at best require the same conditions, often more if not outright banned. Soil can pretty much never be imported, regardless of for what species and to what country. There are probably exceptions, but it's easier to assume you can never imported rooted plants in soil.

Seeds are generally much easier to import than cuttings. I don't need any permit whatsoever to import hop seeds into Canada. I believe Europe is also very lax on requirements for hop seeds. France explicitly excludes hop seeds from their hop import requirements. Most countries have "small seed lot" rules that make them exempt of most or all requirements one would have if importing, say, 200kg of corn seeds.

All this info is just to give a general idea. You'd have to look up your own country's customs or phytoprotection agency to see what you would specifically need yourself.

You never know what you'll get with hop seeds. Some will be males. Some will smell bad. Some will be sickly and die. Some will be fickle and never flower. If the thrill of the surprise and the drive to breed doesn't motivate you, you ought to stick with cuttings available from Europe.

 

[lurker18]

From work, shipping grain around the world, there are multiple tests that need to be done on things like this to move between countries. Just because you have an import or export permit does not mean you can ship everything. Each shipment needs to go through phytosanitary testing before shipping, even same crops going to same destination, all lots need to be tested. Testing for grain is usually at least a week turnaround, and the cost depends on where it is going as each country looks for different pests and diseases. Unless you are a company that is set up to get things like this done fairly regularly, I can't see is being possible. Even sending hop seeds would need to go through a phyto to be shipped. Actual live plants would be an even tougher task I assume.

 

[Apimyces]

From work, shipping grain around the world, there are multiple tests that need to be done on things like this to move between countries. Just because you have an import or export permit does not mean you can ship everything. Each shipment needs to go through phytosanitary testing before shipping, even same crops going to same destination, all lots need to be tested. Testing for grain is usually at least a week turnaround, and the cost depends on where it is going as each country looks for different pests and diseases. Unless you are a company that is set up to get things like this done fairly regularly, I can't see is being possible. Even sending hop seeds would need to go through a phyto to be shipped. Actual live plants would be an even tougher task I assume.

That's not actually the case. I'm not saying it's not true for you, but as I mentioned as an example in my previous message, large grain shipments have a very different legal framework than small seed lots for non-grain crops. If I want to import 250kg of corn seeds into Canada, then I have a lot of hurdles concerning permits and varietal registration. If I want to import 250 hop seeds into Canada, I don't need any paperwork at all. That's because our laws have "small seed lot" exemptions for anything under two given amounts (depending on if it's small seeded or large seeded, the weight limit differs). And that's hard baked into our seed laws, and the grain restrictions are not part of the default seed regulations, but tacked on top of them.

To contrast, the United States also has small seed lot exemptions, but from my research it looks like americans need to actively request this exemption instead of benefiting from it automatically.

For most countries (obviously some cases like Australia might differ), but sending a handful of non-grain seeds is subject to no legal restriction or oversight whatsoever, at most asking a negligible amount of paperwork. It's not impossible that hop seeds be specifically regulated in some countries, maybe those with larger hop industries, but the fact is that for the most part, regulators on average don't care at all about hop seeds, simply ignoring them when not outright excluding them from formal restrictions.

Furthermore, a lot of the national regulations regarding seeds follow international treaties, and are largely alike, with a bit of variation depending on interpretation and which version of the treaties are being adhered to, so I very much doubt that only Canada and the USA have their own version of "small seed lot exemptions", most countries probably have it in some form. For reference, I could import up to about 175 000 hop seeds (500g) before needing a permit for it.

 

[lurker18]

I was not talking about large grain shipment, I mean small test samples being sent around the world for research and baking trials, they all need to go through phyto before leaving Canada. However there are policies in place depending on what the research being done is. If the seeds are to be destroyed, ie baking, the needs are really reduced. However, if the seeds are to be propagated, the need for phyto is mandatory.
Agree that small seed lots do not need to provide the paperwork, but they still fall under the seeds act, and must follow the act just the same as any "big" importation. The importer must follow the seeds act, and be responsible for the paperwork and proof the seeds act was followed if requested.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I very much doubt that only Canada and the USA have their own version of "small seed lot exemptions", most countries probably have it in some form.

Actually I doubt it, it's not the sort of thing that countries that are serious about plant health would do.

I didn't have anything to do with seeds when I was involved with this stuff so don't quote me on this, but it doesn't sound the sort of exemption that the EU would give.

 

[lurker18]

The small seeds exemption is not an exemption from testing, that is still required is requested by whoever is in charge of pulling these things in (boarder patrol for example). The exemption is only that small seeds do not require the paperwork on every shipment.

Seeds in small packets, intended primarily for home gardens, and imported by home gardeners or by commercial businesses, must comply with the requirements of the Seeds Act and Seeds Regulations. Imported seed must not contain Canadian prohibited noxious weed seeds and must meet the minimum standards for other weed and crop seed as prescribed by the Seeds Regulations. The importer is required to keep the seed separate from all other seed and intact in its packaging at the import's first destination until a Notice of Import Conformity is issued indicating that the seed meets the requirements of the Seeds Regulations unless an exemption to this requirement applies.

"Small lots" of seed, that is quantities of less than 5 kg of large seeded kinds such as peas, beans and corn or quantities of less than 500 g of small seeded kinds such as carrot or alfalfa, are exempted from providing an import declaration or a seed analysis certificate and do not require an ICA. Most seed imported by Canadian gardeners would fall under the "small lot" category. However, seed imported for commercial purposes will often require an ICA as the combined weight of commercial imports often exceeds the "small lot" size. The importer is responsible for ensuring that all requirements are met, including freedom from prohibited noxious weed seeds regardless of the exemptions that apply.

The above is a cut and paste from the Canadian Seeds act, states that documentation may not be needed, but the testing must still be available.

 

[Apimyces]

I was not talking about large grain shipment, I mean small test samples being sent around the world for research and baking trials, they all need to go through phyto before leaving Canada. However there are policies in place depending on what the research being done is. If the seeds are to be destroyed, ie baking, the needs are really reduced. However, if the seeds are to be propagated, the need for phyto is mandatory.
Agree that small seed lots do not need to provide the paperwork, but they still fall under the seeds act, and must follow the act just the same as any "big" importation. The importer must follow the seeds act, and be responsible for the paperwork and proof the seeds act was followed if requested.

Thank you for the clarification, the interaction of phyto requirements and small seed lot exemptions are one I meant to investigate further, but never had to, because the seeds I import are not targeted by any particular phyto restrictions. Even live hop cuttings, last I checked, did not require a phytosanitary certificate when imported from Oregon for propagation, merely an import permit. I may be misremembering, though, because looking it up right now, a phyto would indeed be required for that. (edit: last time I imported from the states, I did require a phyto, so that memory of not needing a phyto, if it was ever true, dates back to many years. The phyto only asks for an absence of soil, though.)

Hop seeds aren't targeted by any phyto requirements in Canada, though.

Actually I doubt it, it's not the sort of thing that countries that are serious about plant health would do.

I didn't have anything to do with seeds when I was involved with this stuff so don't quote me on this, but it doesn't sound the sort of exemption that the EU would give.

As Lurker said, the small seed lot exemptions don't necessarily mean you can do whatever you like with small lots, there remains restructions, just less bureaucracy and cost.

For an international reference, see: OECD SCHEMES FOR THE VARIETAL CERTIFICATION OR THE CONTROL OF SEED MOVING IN INTERNATIONAL TRADE © OECD 2021

Page 169 of the report, appendix 6, has a table called "Maximum Weights of "Small Packages" of Vegetable Certified Seed", which ranges from 5kg for leguminous species and corn, to 500g for a number of vegetable seeds, to 100g for all other vegetables. That's not the exact same as Canada's own regulations, but differences such as these are not uncommon with these things. Not all nations part of UPOV adhere to the same versions of the treaties or have the exact same interpretation. Nations remain sovereign, after all, and don't all share the same concerns and priorities. In Oceania, there's a great concern over importing pests, in Europe or at least parts of it, there seems to be some kind of fixation over registered varieties, and overall all states vary on their obsessions with phytosanitary concerns and varietal registrations.


I think we can all agree though that one needs to just look up his own country's guidelines for a definitive answer.

 

[royger]

For what is worth, I've asked some local hop growers in Spain, and one of them will have neomexicanus varieties (Neo1, Amalia, Multihead and Willow Creek) available next year. They are currently in the process of propagating them after having imported the genetic material 3 years ago. I've asked and they have the legal paperwork required to ship to whole Europe. I'm not affiliated with them in any way, their web page is: Vendo Lúpulo | Venta de lúpulo

 

[Brewjoey]

Hi

hello !
I’m looking for someone who owns Amalia, Medusa(Multihead), Neo1 and Willow Creek.
I live in France, and even though these varieties are not protected by a patent, we don’t have access to them in France.
In exchange, I can offer exclusive German and French varieties( Tardif de Bourgogne, Petit Blanc, Mandarina Bavaria, Ariana, Hallertau Blanc...).

ps: I believe that if you live in the USA it is impossible (borders and customs officers)

thank you very much.


"je recherche quelqu'un qui possède Amalia, Medusa(Multihead), Neo1 et Willow Creek. j'habite en France et même si ces variétés ne sont pas protégés par un brevet, nous n'y avons pas accès en France.
En échange, je peux proposer des variétés exclusives Allemandes et Françaises.
ps : je crois que si vous habitez aux USA c'est impossible (frontières et douaniers)
merci beaucoup.

hello !
I’m looking for someone who owns Amalia, Medusa(Multihead), Neo1 and Willow Creek.
I live in France, and even though these varieties are not protected by a patent, we don’t have access to them in France.
In exchange, I can offer exclusive German and French varieties( Tardif de Bourgogne, Petit Blanc, Mandarina Bavaria, Ariana, Hallertau Blanc...).

ps: I believe that if you live in the USA it is impossible (borders and customs officers)

thank you very much.


"je recherche quelqu'un qui possède Amalia, Medusa(Multihead), Neo1 et Willow Creek. j'habite en France et même si ces variétés ne sont pas protégés par un brevet, nous n'y avons pas accès en France.
En échange, je peux proposer des variétés exclusives Allemandes et Françaises.
ps : je crois que si vous habitez aux USA c'est impossible (frontières et douaniers)
merci beaucoup."

Hi, would you care to send Tardif de Bourgogne rhizomes to Austria, Europe???
I could offer to trade Cascade, Hallertauer and Mount Hood

 

[Sylvain]

I have some Tardif de Bourgogne. A shipment is possible. However, I already have your three varieties

 

[Brewjoey]

Hi, I would of course offer to also pay for them