European beers/lagers.

[venquessa]

I'm finding it a little off putting that every European lager I look up on here to find recipes has the local USA brigade slamming it for being "skunky" rubbish.

Stella, Becks, Hieniken etc. etc. all slanted as skunky German/European rubbish.

Well, to be honest, I'm sorry for you guys that nobody over there brews under license and maybe it doesn't travel well, but over here Becks is very nice, very refreshing and fresh, green bottle or not. This is most likely because they are brewed here in the UK under license and usualy as a result, well inside it's BB date. Why green bottles? I don't know, maybe as it's generally cold here in the UK and in Germany it's less of an issue. Maybe they know the market is strong enough that they won't be stored long enough and maybe never exposed to daylight until the last minute when they go on the fridge shelf in the shop.

Granted I would probably be keen to avoid the unfridged crate sitting in the window of the shop!

Recent bottles/cans of Stella and Becks have inspired me to attempt that fresh crisp hops flavour that they tend to have.

I have to attempt to brew something with Hallertau and/or Saaz hops to see if I can get anything close.

 

[Piratwolf]

Hey, venquessa!

There's a saying here you may know: opinions are like a--holes-everyone has one and they all stink. I think you have to brew what you know and what you love. Some folks here hate IPAs and American hops, but that's probably half of what I brew...b/c that's what I like to drink!

Brew strong, sir!

 

[SwampassJ]

They get bashed because they taste like crap by the time we get it, unless it's canned or kegged. You wouldn't order a pizza over and over again if it came to your house cold and stale. You would move on to a place that could get it done right.

 

[venquessa]

Similarly you wouldn't say "Eugh, Pizza is disgusting", because you ordered it take away from Italy when you live in Memphis.

 

[Brewskii]

They get bashed because they taste like crap by the time we get it, unless it's canned or kegged. You wouldn't order a pizza over and over again if it came to your house cold and stale. You would move on to a place that could get it done right.

Don't forget that those imports have always come in green glass in the U.S. When us yanks open a bottle like that, were almost disappointed if it's not skunked. To the ignorant, it's how it's 'supposed' to taste.

Stella is an excellent brew when fresh. I have noticed that if you buy it in the grocery store or similar I get fewer and fewer bad 6'ers. I did just get off a plane in Cleveland and had one at the airport... What a crime. It wasn't old but it was right in front of the flouresent lights in their cooler and it was almost undrinkable.

 

[AllHopAbandon]

Here in Holland Heineken comes in brown bottles and is not skunky at all. The first time I saw Heineken in green bottles was when I was in NY. And yes, it tasted (even) worse than 'regular' Heineken. So why does Heineken sell their beer in green bottles? Answer: marketing. People from the US seem to prefer green bottles. And marketing is also the reason Heineken gets exported to the US en masse even though you people seem perfectly able to brew macroswill yourselves

Don't forget that those imports have always come in green glass in the U.S. When us yanks open a bottle like that, were almost disappointed if it's not skunked. To the ignorant, it's how it's 'supposed' to taste.

I used to be a musician. One time we shared a back stage area with a metal band from the US. They asked if the 2 crates of beer (in brown bottles) could be switched out for Heineken. They were extremely disappointed to see Heineken came in brown bottles too. They tried it and claimed 'it tasted better back home'. I was confused

 

[Brewskii]

Here in Holland Heineken comes in brown bottles and is not skunky at all. The first time I saw Heineken in green bottles was when I was in NY. And yes, it tasted (even) worse than 'regular' Heineken. So why does Heineken sell their beer in green bottles? Answer: marketing. People from the US seem to prefer green bottles. And marketing is also the reason Heineken gets exported to the US en masse even though you people seem perfectly able to brew macroswill yourselves

BINGO! Only reason for green glass is marketing and hype. Don't blame the brewers, blame the sheep who don't know about what they are drinking.

 

[Revvy]

Just ignore it, not everyone on here is a brewdouche beersnob who considers mass market or whatever bad. Like piratewolf said, opinions are like a holes.....Like what you like, drink what you like, and brew what you like, and just tune out the BS.....people want to make comments about staleness and whatever in THOSE beers, but you RARELY hear anyone complaining about beers from Britain, that travel pretty much just as far. And most of them come in clear glass bottles themselves, (I've been on a binge lately trying every English Mild/Bitter I can, and just about EVERY bomber of the beer is in a clear glass bottle)...

I think it's perception, their noses are already turned up self-righteousness that all they're really smelling is their own smugness...."X beer is approved by beersnobs, and Y beer isn't, so of course y beer is ****."

They want to make comments about the "sheep" that drink bud or heinie or whatever that they don't even want to see that they're being just as sheep like in their need to bash another beer.

 

[venquessa]

Well what led me to make this thread was three times I have come looking for hints on how to achieve that hop flavour and all I could find where threads complaining about those beer types being skunked.

What I note is that the hops used in beers like Beck, Stella, Hieniken are usually listed in the "Aroma Hops" section of my supplier.

I know I could just make 1 gallon batches with different hop timing until I get the taste, but with lager taking so long to make and requiring fridge space to do it, it makes things slow to use trial and error.

Seems I will be using aroma hops for slight bittering, flavour and aroma. Doing a 2 gallon full boil extract brew, would that be 30min, 15min, 5 min ... all the same hops?

What about dry hopping when lagering?

 

[SwampassJ]

Yes revvy I'm smug because I said the green bottles are stale but cans and kegged come yhrough ok. I guess I should limit my smugness to copy pasting responses with a hoity toity tone to it.

 

[Brewskii]

*comment redacted*

 

[Revvy]

Well what led me to make this thread was three times I have come looking for hints on how to achieve that hop flavour and all I could find where threads complaining about those beer types being skunked.

What I note is that the hops used in beers like Beck, Stella, Hieniken are usually listed in the "Aroma Hops" section of my supplier.

I know I could just make 1 gallon batches with different hop timing until I get the taste, but with lager taking so long to make and requiring fridge space to do it, it makes things slow to use trial and error.

Seems I will be using aroma hops for slight bittering, flavour and aroma. Doing a 2 gallon full boil extract brew, would that be 30min, 15min, 5 min ... all the same hops?

What about dry hopping when lagering?

It sounds like more of your LHBS's organization of the hops then anything else. In most of these style of beers there is usually only one hop addition (for the most part) and that is usually the bittering addition. These aren't usually known to be all that hoppy. Most of the lager recipes have 1 hop addition, and that's at 60 and that's really it. Very few if any have an aroma or flavor addition or are dry hopped at all.

Some of the beers do have a hop aroma to them, and they're usually done near flame out.

And usually they're noble hops. Here's some basic info on them.

The term "noble hops" traditionally refers to four varieties of hops which are low in bitterness and high in aroma. They are the central European cultivars, Hallertau, Tettnanger, Spalt, and Saaz.[27] They are each named for a specific region or city in which they were first grown or primarily grown. They contain high amounts of the hop oil humulene and low amounts of alpha acids cohumulone and adhumulone, as well as lower amounts of the harsher-tasting beta acids lupulone, colupulone, and adlupulone.

Their low relative bitterness but strong aroma are often distinguishing characteristics of European-style lager beer, such as Pilsener, Dunkel, and Oktoberfest/Märzen. In beer, they are considered aroma hops (as opposed to bittering hops); see Pilsner Urquell as a classic example of the Bohemian Pilsener style, which showcases noble hops.

As with grapes, the land where the hops were grown affects the hops' characteristics. Much as Dortmunder beer may only within the EU be labelled "Dortmunder" if it has been brewed in Dortmund, noble hops may only officially be considered "noble" if they were grown in the areas for which the hops varieties were named.

Some consider the English varieties Fuggle and East Kent Goldings to be noble. They are characterized through analysis as having an alpha:beta ratio of 1:1, low alpha-acid levels (2–5%) with a low cohumulone content, low myrcene in the hop oil, high humulene in the oil, a ratio of humulene:caryophyllene above three, and poor storability resulting in them being more prone to oxidation. In reality, this means they have a relatively consistent bittering potential as they age, due to beta-acid oxidation, and a flavor that improves as they age during periods of poor storage.[28]

Hallertau or Hallertauer–The original German lager hop; named after Hallertau or Holledau region in central Bavaria. Due to susceptibility to crop disease, it was largely replaced by Hersbrucker in the 1970s and 1980s. (Alpha acid 3.5–5.5% / beta acid 3–4%)
Saaz–Noble hop used extensively in Bohemia to flavor pale Czech lagers such as Pilsner Urquell. Soft aroma and bitterness. (Alpha acid 3–4.5% /Beta acid 3–4.5%)
Spalt–Traditional German noble hop from the Spalter region south of Nuremberg. With a delicate, spicy aroma. (Alpha acid 4–5% / beta acid 4–5%)
Tettnang–Comes from Tettnang, a small town in southern Baden-Württemberg in Germany. The region produces significant quantities of hops, and ships them to breweries throughout the world. Noble German dual-use hop used in European pale lagers, sometimes with Hallertau. Soft bitterness. (Alpha acid 3.5–5.5% / beta acid 3.5–5.5%)

The exception to this, and the one that is the butt of a lot of jokes on here, of course is Miller Lite, who triple hop their beer like we do for most ales. But still the overall IBUs are so small that it's still going to be pretty negligable compared to other beer styles.

 

[venquessa]

Thanks a lot Revvy.

Is 60min still the normal for smaller 2 gallon extract batches when using these hops?

 

[wailingguitar]

Stella, for one, definitely has some hop character going on. Not major, but it's there. I have a similar beer in keg right now... not a Stella clone, but in the same general ballpark... kind of closer to a lighter German Pils. I would try 1/2oz to maybe at most 1oz at flameout with about a 5 minute steep before cooling. Definitely a noble hop, probably one of the spicier ones (for my taste) Spalt or Saaz. Shoot for a gravity of 10-11P with 100% pale 2row or pilsner malt. Around 18-20 IBU.

 

[Revvy]

Thanks a lot Revvy.

Is 60min still the normal for smaller 2 gallon extract batches when using these hops?

Size is really irrelevant where this is concerned. Batches are scalable, you do the same thing whether it's a 1 gallon or multiple barrel batch.

 

[SwampassJ]

Stella, for one, definitely has some hop character going on. Not major, but it's there. I have a similar beer in keg right now... not a Stella clone, but in the same general ballpark... kind of closer to a lighter German Pils. I would try 1/2oz to maybe at most 1oz at flameout with about a 5 minute steep before cooling. Definitely a noble hop, probably one of the spicier ones (for my taste) Spalt or Saaz. Shoot for a gravity of 10-11P with 100% pale 2row or pilsner malt. Around 18-20 IBU.

Sounds about right. I dont get a ton of saaz flavor but it's there. I can only imagine that beer with a touch more bitterness and it makes me drool thinking of it in the pool.

 

[bronzdragon]

I really think it's due to the shipping and storage. A lot of these lighter bodied beers ... if at one stage of the shipping, is mis-handled...then the whole flavor is ruined.

Darker, heavy bodied beer can take a lot more abuse. It's kind of like in homebrewing you find out that one of the simplest beers, Pilsner, is one of the hardest to brew...because any imperfections will stand out like a sore thumb.

There are a lot of variables of course, but I find it very hard to even purchase a lighter lager or pilsner that comes in green glass from Europe ... because most of my experiences have been bad.

Thank goodness with the onset of so many local breweries around the world. Everyone can have fresh beer from their garage or down the road from the micro-brewery!

~rc~

 

[cricky101]

Just ignore it, not everyone on here is a brewdouche beersnob who considers mass market or whatever bad. Like piratewolf said, opinions are like a holes.....Like what you like, drink what you like, and brew what you like, and just tune out the BS.....people want to make comments about staleness and whatever in THOSE beers, but you RARELY hear anyone complaining about beers from Britain, that travel pretty much just as far. And most of them come in clear glass bottles themselves, (I've been on a binge lately trying every English Mild/Bitter I can, and just about EVERY bomber of the beer is in a clear glass bottle)...

I think it's perception, their noses are already turned up self-righteousness that all they're really smelling is their own smugness...."X beer is approved by beersnobs, and Y beer isn't, so of course y beer is ****."

They want to make comments about the "sheep" that drink bud or heinie or whatever that they don't even want to see that they're being just as sheep like in their need to bash another beer.

Such unnecessary anger. Disappointing but not surprising.

 

[Revvy]

Such unnecessary anger. Disappointing but not surprising.

Who's angry? Not me. Just pointing out that God forbid someone wants to brew or drink certain beers, or ask for info or help on brewing certain beers without getting a bunch of bmc bashing or whatever. There's beer geeks and beer snobs, beer geeks think that all beers have their place or purpose, INCLUDING BMC. Beer snobs look down on some beers and their drinkers...They call them sheep or blue collar, or whatever and expect every one on here to agree.

Not everyone who brews came to this hobby from a craft beer perspective, I did, but I don't think I'm better than someone who's favorite beer is budlight. It's not my cup of tea, but obviously it is to billions of other folks on this planet. Quite a few of them who are now brewing beer.....And brewing lagers, including light lagers.

Many folks including many I've taught over the years are bmc drinkers, and rather than being welcome into the brotherhood of brewing they have to put up with "holier than thou" superiority from many folks, mostly newly converted ex bmc drinkers themselves.

It's funny, I'm still nearly the only person in this thread who actually answered his questions about hopping those beers. Which is the reason he was venting about it anyway.

And it's also funny how defensive some folks get. I didn't point any fingers at anyone, I was just agreeing with the O.P. on how frustrating it can be. Yet some folks let their buttons get pushed...that's usually a sign of of a lack of self esteem....but it's not surprising, since folks with that sort of issue are usually the ones who bash other folks for their choices, they worry what other folks might think about them and their choices...But if you're confident or comfortable with your own choices, then usually you let other folks be comfortable with theirs. You don't denigrate them for their choices. And if you do, don't get all hissy if someone like me decides to call you on it.

The sad thing is that folks just can't get along over their love of beer, ALL BEER, some folks still feel the need to make it an "us -vs- them," thing.

 

[wailingguitar]

Who's angry? Not me. Just pointing out that God forbid someone wants to brew or drink certain beers, or ask for info or help on brewing certain beers without getting a bunch of bmc bashing or whatever. There's beer geeks and beer snobs, beer geeks think that all beers have their place or purpose, INCLUDING BMC. Beer snobs look down on some beers and their drinkers...They call them sheep or blue collar, or whatever and expect every one on here to agree.

Not everyone who brews came to this hobby from a craft beer perspective, I did, but I don't think I'm better than someone who's favorite beer is budlight. It's not my cup of tea, but obviously it is to billions of other folks on this planet. Quite a few of them who are now brewing beer.....And brewing lagers, including light lagers.

Many folks including many I've taught over the years are bmc drinkers, and rather than being welcome into the brotherhood of brewing they have to put up with "holier than thou" superiority from many folks, mostly newly converted ex bmc drinkers themselves.

It's funny, I'm still the only person in this thread who actually answered his questions about hopping those beers. Which is the reason he was venting about it anyway.

And it's also funny how defensive some folks get. I didn't point any fingers at anyone, I was just agreeing with the O.P. on how frustrating it can be. Yet some folks let their buttons get pushed...that's usually a sign of of a lack of self esteem....but it's not surprising, since folks with that sort of issue are usually the ones who bash other folks for their choices, they worry what other folks might think about them and their choices...But if you're confident or comfortable with your own choices, then usually you let other folks be comfortable with theirs. You don't denigrate them for their choices. And if you do, don't get all hissy if someone like me decides to call you on it.

The sad thing is that folks just can't get along over their love of beer, ALL BEER, some folks still feel the need to make it an "us -vs- them," thing.

I agree with most of that... although, I think you'll find that you aren't the only person who answered the question... look at my previous post

At any rate, I would also like to point out that brewing something like Stella or some other lighter, pils-ish beer, is a bit more difficult than making a huge stout or excessively hopped beer, etc. Anyone can throw malt and/or hops at a beer... knock you in the head with flavors, alcohol, etc. "Hey! There's a lot going on here, it must be good!" Well.... sometimes they are, sometimes not so much... BUT to be able to make a pilsner (of whatever strength), Helles, etc. is an exercise in restraint and subtlety...

I may love a big RIS, but the brewer with the perfect Pils is going to impress me more

 

[rockfish42]

This should get you close
~1.045 OG FG 1.006 21 IBU SRM 4 5% ABV
80% Pilsner and 20% flaked maize, 60 minute bittering 15 minute flavor of whatever noble hops you have lying around. If you're going for something similar to Heineken you might consider wyeast 2024 danish lager or white labs copenhagen lager. Soft water would help, if it were me I'd use RO and add back salts to hit 50 ppm calcium from primarily calcium chloride. Throw in some acid malt maybe replacing 2% of the pils.

 

[Revvy]

I agree with most of that... although, I think you'll find that you aren't the only person who answered the question... look at my previous post

At any rate, I would also like to point out that brewing something like Stella or some other lighter, pils-ish beer, is a bit more difficult than making a huge stout or excessively hopped beer, etc. Anyone can throw malt and/or hops at a beer... knock you in the head with flavors, alcohol, etc. "Hey! There's a lot going on here, it must be good!" Well.... sometimes they are, sometimes not so much... BUT to be able to make a pilsner (of whatever strength), Helles, etc. is an exercise in restraint and subtlety...

I may love a big RIS, but the brewer with the perfect Pils is going to impress me more

+1 Sorry about that, I knew you did...I amended my previous statement to say "nearly"

And you're also right....I wonder how many of the folks bashing a bud light, for example, could make one as flawless as they do consistently? I know I sure as heck couldn't.

 

[wailingguitar]

+1 Sorry about that, I knew you did...I amended my previous statement to say "nearly"

And you're also right....I wonder how many of the folks bashing a bud light, for example, could make one as flawless as they do consistently? I know I sure as heck couldn't.

LOL Rev, thanks...

I don't like Bud, Bud Light, etc. There are only a few beers in that style that I care to drink... always have a soft spot in my heart for Blatz and Heilman's Old Style for instance... BUT, A/B knows their stuff "flawless and consistently", well said. I may not be able to stomach the stuff, it may give me an instant headache, but I respect Budweiser as (quoted to me by a colleague) "the single most consistent food product in the world"

 

[venquessa]

This should get you close
~1.045 OG FG 1.006 21 IBU SRM 4 5% ABV
80% Pilsner and 20% flaked maize, 60 minute bittering 15 minute flavor of whatever noble hops you have lying around. If you're going for something similar to Heineken you might consider wyeast 2024 danish lager or white labs copenhagen lager. Soft water would help, if it were me I'd use RO and add back salts to hit 50 ppm calcium from primarily calcium chloride. Throw in some acid malt maybe replacing 2% of the pils.

Okay, woo there. A lot of that is beyond me at this stage. So it won't be perfect in the slightest. LOL

I did some basic extract recipes on hopville beercalculus, but I seem to end up with a higher FG.

Ingredients I was thinking of using and have ordered for a lager base were:

Dried Light Malt Extract
Caramel Pils (for flavour)
(Sprinkle of) Crystal 40L for color
Saflager S23 yeast.

1 gallon batch and boil.

Seems the FG always ends up high, like 1.011-1.015 depending on how I shuffle stuff about. Adding corn sugar for alcohol instead of malt didn't even seem to help it. Might be those yeasties.

 

[SwampassJ]

This should get you close
~1.045 OG FG 1.006 21 IBU SRM 4 5% ABV
80% Pilsner and 20% flaked maize, 60 minute bittering 15 minute flavor of whatever noble hops you have lying around. If you're going for something similar to Heineken you might consider wyeast 2024 danish lager or white labs copenhagen lager. Soft water would help, if it were me I'd use RO and add back salts to hit 50 ppm calcium from primarily calcium chloride. Throw in some acid malt maybe replacing 2% of the pils.

I don't know about a 20% corn usage. The becks and Stellas never struck me as that thin.

 

[venquessa]

Size is really irrelevant where this is concerned. Batches are scalable, you do the same thing whether it's a 1 gallon or multiple barrel batch.

So.... basically everything scales, except time. Correct?

I'd expect 1 gallon to ferment only slightly faster than 5 gallons, if at all.

So if I took a 12 gallon recipe and divided everything by 12, to make a 1gl batch it would still be boiled the same length of time, with 1/12th of the hops...?

 

[venquessa]

I don't know about a 20% corn usage. The becks and Stellas never struck me as that thin.

I'm told a lot of these beers, today, use "maize". Is maize not corn? So, I wonder, do the use maize malts, or just bung in some corn sugar and put "Maize" on the tin?

 

[rockfish42]

Most calculators don't treat sugars correctly, just do 20% corn sugar and you should be fine hitting the FG. If you can get pilsner extract it would give you a closer flavor profile than normal extract and most extracts usually contain some amount of carapils already.
http://www.weyermann.de/eng/produkte.asp?idkat=27&umenue=yes&idmenue=37&sprache=2
I'd keep any crystal/caramel malt to less than 1-2 percent. S-23 does well around 15-16 C.

 

[cricky101]

Who's angry? Not me. Just pointing out that God forbid someone wants to brew or drink certain beers, or ask for info or help on brewing certain beers without getting a bunch of bmc bashing or whatever. There's beer geeks and beer snobs, beer geeks think that all beers have their place or purpose, INCLUDING BMC. Beer snobs look down on some beers and their drinkers...They call them sheep or blue collar, or whatever and expect every one on here to agree.

Not everyone who brews came to this hobby from a craft beer perspective, I did, but I don't think I'm better than someone who's favorite beer is budlight. It's not my cup of tea, but obviously it is to billions of other folks on this planet. Quite a few of them who are now brewing beer.....And brewing lagers, including light lagers.

Many folks including many I've taught over the years are bmc drinkers, and rather than being welcome into the brotherhood of brewing they have to put up with "holier than thou" superiority from many folks, mostly newly converted ex bmc drinkers themselves.

It's funny, I'm still nearly the only person in this thread who actually answered his questions about hopping those beers. Which is the reason he was venting about it anyway.

And it's also funny how defensive some folks get. I didn't point any fingers at anyone, I was just agreeing with the O.P. on how frustrating it can be. Yet some folks let their buttons get pushed...that's usually a sign of of a lack of self esteem....but it's not surprising, since folks with that sort of issue are usually the ones who bash other folks for their choices, they worry what other folks might think about them and their choices...But if you're confident or comfortable with your own choices, then usually you let other folks be comfortable with theirs. You don't denigrate them for their choices. And if you do, don't get all hissy if someone like me decides to call you on it.

The sad thing is that folks just can't get along over their love of beer, ALL BEER, some folks still feel the need to make it an "us -vs- them," thing.

Where is anyone bashing BMC in the thread??? You come out with both barrels blazing at a non-existent complaint about BMC, and then rail about how defensive people get when posting about specific beers??

The OP is referencing threads where people are complaining about beers that taste skunky. Drink a Stella on tap versus one that has been sitting in the liquor store. I like Stella and drink it often, but quit buying it in a bottle shortly after I had it on tap and found out what it SHOULD taste like. I'm looking forward to getting it in cans now.

But I guess that makes me a "self-righteous sheep" and I'll continue to "smell my own smugness." But only if that's OK with you.

I'm done clogging up the OP's thread (sorry).

 

[rockfish42]

I don't know about a 20% corn usage. The becks and Stellas never struck me as that thin.

At 20% it won't be thin, just fairly dry depending on the mash temp.
Stella and Heineken are essentially premium american lagers.
http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style01.php#1c