Estery lager

[z-bob]

Or just leave out the sugar? Rice broke in a certain flavour, not only abv. Sugar is just good for abv ... Personally for me not desirable, but that surely might differ from person to person.

I don't find that rice adds any flavor that I can detect, although I've only used up to 20%. (I do brew with rice quite a bit, but not flaked or puffed rice) The sugar would be to dry out the beer, and the flavor would come from the extra malt you use, because you use a lot less sugar than you do other adjuncts. That's my theory anyway, FWIW If flaked corn were the adjunct, this wouldn't work so well because you'd lose the corn flavor.

 

[Miraculix]

I don't find that rice adds any flavor that I can detect, although I've only used up to 20%. (I do brew with rice quite a bit, but not flaked or puffed rice) The sugar would be to dry out the beer, and the flavor would come from the extra malt you use, because you use a lot less sugar than you do other adjuncts. That's my theory anyway, FWIW If flaked corn were the adjunct, this wouldn't work so well because you'd lose the corn flavor.

I have no direct a/b comparison with or without rice but I think I am tasting something in these adjunct driven Asian lagers and rice based American lagers that I would say comes from the rice. Could be a only a stupid idea though.

Sugar doesn't dry out, the removal of the malt dries it out. The sugar just brings back the abv. I personally don't use any ingredient just to up the abv without contributing anything to the flavour, but that is only my personal idea again.

 

[monkeymath]

Sugar doesn't dry out, the removal of the malt dries it out. The sugar just brings back the abv. I personally don't use any ingredient just to up the abv without contributing anything to the flavour, but that is only my personal idea again.

That's exactly my thinking. "Drying out" or "thinning out the body" can be achieved simply by lowering the OG. And I'm always happy if I can keep the abv low without getting into "watery" territory.

You only "need" the table sugar if you want to keep up the yeast expression as well, e.g. in a Saison.

 

[AlexKay]

Some people are particularly sensitive to fruity esters. Do other (good) lagers have this taste, or just yours?

If you’re looking at yeast health, zinc is essential to fermentation and the malt usually doesn’t provide enough. I’m generally skeptical of “yeast nutrient” but adding zinc is good.

With respect to glucose vs. maltose, glucose does inhibit initial maltose metabolism. Once the glucose has been consumed, maltase kicks back in. I don’t know whether high glucose levels lead to stress or off flavors along the way.

With respect to dry or repitched yeast, I have no reliable source that says repitched is “better.” I understand that professional brewers feel that the yeast (any yeast) changes from the first to subsequent generations. On the other hand, the one side by side I’ve done myself with dry vs repitched gave me beers I could not distinguish. Waiting for my next homebrew club meeting to do triangle tests.

In any case, it looks like you’re proceeding sensibly. I’d switch yeast; there might just be something about 34/70 that doesn’t work for you.

 

[camonick]

Fermentation was 11C (52F) for almost 2 weeks

Fermentis recommends 53.6-59 °F (12-15 °C) for 34/70.

You're probably fermenting too cold. At room temperature, I had a pretty clean ferment with 3470

I’ve heard of people having good results at warmer temps. I like 54-56°F myself and don’t notice any strange flavors. I don’t do D rests either.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

It is not uncommon for lager yeasts to produce esters or "express" an ester component. There are methods which to reliably suppress esters in lager beer.

Large pitches and colder fermentation temperatures are the standard methods to suppress these esters, but there is one part that homebrewers often misunderstand about the vessel used to ferment lagers. As the depth of the fermentation vessel is increased, the amount of hydrostatic pressure on the beer/yeast is increased. Often it is said that pressure on the yeast will reduce the ester production, but this is a misunderstanding of what is really taking place. The added pressure and colder temperatures causes co2 to remain in solution, the yeast reacts to this co2 by "changing metabolic pathways". The truth is that it's really not well understood why the yeast react this way, but it's not uncommon to see very tall fermenters for lagers (Weinhenstephan) and short, longer vessel for ales and wheat beers to get the yeast to produce esters (Samuel Smith/Weinhenstephan). Lower co2 levels causes the yeast to produce more esters.

I hate fruity lagers, Budweiser would be a much better beer if didn't have a bunch of apple character in it. If you pitch large amount of yeast, @2 million cells/mL/degree plato into 48F (8.8C) and ferment it at 4-5 psi (.3-.35 bars) to mimic hydrostatic pressure, the esters are, for the most part, suppressed below the flavor threshold.

I use 1 pack of 34/70 and make a 4 liter starter with it (yes, you can make a starter with dry yeast). I then decant the starter and pitch that into a 7 gallon (27 liter) batch of 46-48F degree wort. The fermenter is then allowed to build pressure, usually in 24-36 hours it's at 4-5 psi. I then let the beer ferment at that temperature and pressure for 7 days, I then raise the temperature to 55F (12-13C) and raise the pressure to 10-15 psi. By day 9-10 I have raised the pressure to 20-22psi. The beer is then fully carbonated. If you can't pressure ferment, it's going to tough to get a super clean beer.

Warm fermenting lagers are more common, but I found that the lower the temperature, the lower the pressure. 4-5psi @ 48-50F is the sweet spot. This method works very well with German Pils, Helles, International Lager, etc. The colder fermentation temperature keeps the beer tasting like a lager. Warm fermented lagers taste like a really clean ale and lack the sulfur notes of a lager.

The regular stuff still applies to the beer, make sure you aerate properly, closed transfers post fermentation, etc.

I used this method to produce an American Lager that won 2 back to back silver medals at NHC (2021 and 2022). 34/70 is the best yeast I have found for an American Lager. It should also be noted that not all yeast react well under pressure, but any of the versions Weinhenstephan yeast works really well under pressure. Below is the recipe:

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/216382/standard-american-lager-ii-aka-lynns-lager