ESB

[Hoochin'Fool]

Going to attempt an ESB soon, looking for reassurance I'm not getting into the weeds!

water: London profile
OG: 1055
Bairds Maris Otter 90%
Bairds Medium Crystal 75L 10%
Bittered with EKG @60 to 25 ibu, and @5 for another 10 ibu
yeast: S-04
bottle carb to 2.0 vol

Questions:
A pinch ( <= 1% ) of wheat, or flaked barley for foam?
A pinch ( <= 1% ) of a dark roast for more color?
Should I mix up the hops? I've got some Magnum, Willamette, Saaz, Perle...

Thanks!

 

[Bobby_M]

Stick with EKG. Pinch of biscuit won't hurt.

 

[DBhomebrew]

I'm currently drinking a very enjoyable strong bitter. Got another in conditioning.

1.050 40IBU
80% Fawcett Spring Pale
5% C65
5% Torrified Wheat
10% Invert
A bit of black for color
Goldings if I have it, currently drinking one with Saaz @FW, 60, 30
Imperial Pub
125 Ca, 30 Na, balanced Cl:SO4

With MO, I don't think you need anything to punch the maltiness. 10% is way too much crystal without balancing it with sugar.

 

[BigEd]

My preference is to stick with the traditional flavors of UK hops in this beer. A pinch (.005%, maybe an Oz or so) of chocolate malt will give you a nice coppery color tweak. 1% of wheat or flaked barley isn't going to accomplish much. I'd go maybe 3-5% flaked barley or torrified wheat if you want to boost the foam viscosity. I'd also back that 75L crystal down a bit from 10% or switch it to 55L.

 

[micraftbeer]

My experience on British Bitter is the yeast is critical to getting the right taste. I've never used S04, but the description sounds like it will be pretty non characteristic. I wasn't happy with my Bitters being what I wanted until I tried WLP002.

I absolutely stopped messing with yeast once I made one with that.

 

[micraftbeer]

When I look at yeast substitution charts, it shows all kinds of yeast can be substituted for US04. All kinds of yeast that would never taste like a British Bitter in my experience. There's no way it tastes like all of those, so to me it seems like it must be pretty generic in flavor, which would turn it from a British Bitter to "a beer with British malts and hops that isn't distinct".

 

[DBhomebrew]

I wasn't happy with my Bitters being what I wanted until I tried WLP002.

I absolutely stopped messing with yeast once I made one with that.

You should try Imperial Pub.

 

[AlexKay]

Can’t go wrong with MO, British crystal, and EKG. Well, you could go wrong if you put too much crystal in, so I wouldn’t go above 10%, but I don’t know if you need to go below. When you tweak the recipe you may need to cut back on the crystal or add some more bitterness. Depends on your taste.

I’d go with 10% wheat or more if you want to have an effect on foam.

Just to throw a few alternate ingredient ideas out there: Lallemand London (supposedly discontinued but still not hard to find), Simpsons DRC, and Boadicea.

I think of Boadicea as EKG with more farnesene. And I love farnesene.

 

[Miraculix]

1.055 ist pretty high for a UK ale. This means that the beer will be sweet. Now you throw in ten percent of crystal, we're getting into cloying territory now.

There's been a solid recipe posted above for a strong bitter by @DBhomebrew (there's no such thing as a esb beer style, ESB is a specific beer brewed by Fuller's), I'd copy that of were you. If you want to brew the real ESB, the recipe for that can be found online.

I've made really good experience with "waking up" s04 from dry state to liquid state. Just use 3g of the dry yeast in a two litre starter and when it's done decant the liquid and pitch the slurry.

But it still doesn't come close to imperial pub, which is my favourite UK yeast up until today. It's also supposed to be the Fuller's strain. It is different from w002. Imo better, I know both.

 

[Jocky]

For an ESB 1.055 is fine, as is up to 10% medium crystal, but you will want your IBUs up around 40-45 to cut through that. Definitely no need for any roast, but you could add a little wheat if you feel like it. Any traditional English hops are good.

A flavourful yeast is probably the most important thing, and that's the hardest bit. I've grown up dregs from Fullers 1845 that have had wonderful flavour, but I've also had issues with it being a phenolic mess too, and I'd not rate your chances in getting anything good out of bottles that have made it to the USA. People reckon that White Labs 002 is Fullers yeast, but it doesn't taste like Fullers to me (and I have a Fullers pub at the end of my road).

The closest I've had commercially available is Imperial A09 Pub. Just don't under pitch it as it can be quite banana like.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

I use a Nottingham clone for all my bitters and comes out tasting like bitter.

 

[micraftbeer]

The other things I've iterated to on my Bitter recipes are:

1. ABV in the 3.7% - 4.0%. This is less about trying to stick to a style as it is sticking to what my palate likes. In my mind, Bitter is successful when it is light enough you can drink large amount of it, but not so light that it tastes watery.
2. I use mostly MO malt, then play with Caramel malts to get the color I want, balanced by not making it so sweet it's overpowering. But I think the low ABV/OG target helps a high Caramel malt bill not be overpowering in sweetness.
3. 0.5% Amber malt. This gives just a hint of roast that I think turns out well. It sounds tiny, but you can still get a sense of it. At 1% it's too much (for me).

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

I've started and then cancelled an updated reply here at least a dozen times over the last few days. First, thanks for all the input, tho I'm taking most of it "under advisement" as my old "real job" boss used to say.

Anyways, I'm definitely cutting the crystal from 10% to 6%, and while I do have some Briess victory (not biscuit), think this first go 'round will stick to no extra malts besides the MO and crystal. If I decide it needs better foam or color, I'll tweak that next go-round. Also, the missus is already annoyed at how many beergredients I've ordered lately, and I already have the MO, crystal, EKG, and S-04! As for the yeast, I definitely prefer my yeast esters to be subdued, not in-your-face, and I really like S-04 in general, so sticking with that as well, may revisit in a future re-brew as well.

Was planning on brewing this afternoon, but now I'm getting sick (two days after babysitting my niece's 3 little rugrats), so it'll probably be next week sometime.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

The other things I've iterated to on my Bitter recipes are:

1. ABV in the 3.7% - 4.0%. This is less about trying to stick to a style as it is sticking to what my palate likes. In my mind, Bitter is successful when it is light enough you can drink large amount of it, but not so light that it tastes watery.
2. I use mostly MO malt, then play with Caramel malts to get the color I want, balanced by not making it so sweet it's overpowering. But I think the low ABV/OG target helps a high Caramel malt bill not be overpowering in sweetness.
3. 0.5% Amber malt. This gives just a hint of roast that I think turns out well. It sounds tiny, but you can still get a sense of it. At 1% it's too much (for me).

Good input on bitters, here’s my 2 pennies worth
1. The magic number for ABV in bitters is 4% or some would say 4.2%.
2. The major use for crystal malts is dual it adds sweetness and depending on the type colour.
3. Many bitters do not have any crystal at and use Biscuit, Amber, Chocolate or Black malts for colour.
4. I limit use of crystal malt to around 5% so not too sweet.
5. Wheat malt or Torrefied wheat is a useful addition at 5% +/- 2% for head retention.
6. I generally only use British hops the exceptions being Cascade and Willamette as finishing hops.
7. I generally use Nottingham yeast except for a few Scottish bitters.

 

[AlexKay]

All-malt beers usually don't have any problem with foam. Edge cases would include a ton of crystal, high ABV, or very low bitterness. And I suppose you could screw it up with willy-nilly protein rests. But other than that, you really shouldn't have to worry.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Going to attempt an ESB soon, looking for reassurance I'm not getting into the weeds!

Well you can see how Fuller's do it from their original brewsheets in this thead, which also has a homebrew version that claims to be a good clone of ESB in post #42 :
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...imperials-neipa-from-the-horses-mouth.642756/

You're making the usual mistake of foreign brewers of putting way too much crystal in there, which puts the beer out of balance, and British beers are all about balancing every component of the beer. The colour doesn't come from crystal, but from brewer's caramel or small amount of chocolate/black malt etc. Some British beers don't use crystal at all, on a national scale the average is probably ?4%?, Fuller's use 7.2% of light crystal and for me that's plenty.

Can't go wrong with Goldings for British beers, especially if this is your first time then do it right and don't mess around with other hops.

Going back to the balance thing - carbonation is a vital ingredient, and 2vol is a bit high. I tend to aim for about 1.8 in the bottle.

As others have said, a more characterful yeast like Pub would be preferable, S-04 is OK but a bit dull.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

Well you can see how Fuller's do it from their original brewsheets in this thead, which also has a homebrew version that claims to be a good clone of ESB in post #42 :
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...imperials-neipa-from-the-horses-mouth.642756/

Thank you! I saw that thread a while ago and then when I couldn't find it again, found this recipe/thread instead, which is what I based the first post on...

You're making the usual mistake of foreign brewers of putting way too much crystal in there, which puts the beer out of balance, and British beers are all about balancing every component of the beer. The colour doesn't come from crystal, but from brewer's caramel or small amount of chocolate/black malt etc. Some British beers don't use crystal at all, on a national scale the average is probably ?4%?, Fuller's use 7.2% of light crystal and for me that's plenty.

Yeah, I am planning on cutting the crystal to 6% (75L), still think that's too much?

Can't go wrong with Goldings for British beers, especially if this is your first time then do it right and don't mess around with other hops.
Going back to the balance thing - carbonation is a vital ingredient, and 2vol is a bit high. I tend to aim for about 1.8 in the bottle.

I'll go with 1.8-ish volumes then, thanks!

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Yeah, I am planning on cutting the crystal to 6% (75L), still think that's too much?

Depends what your aim is - are you trying to clone the Fuller's beer, are you trying to trying to create a beer of a similar style in the Thames Valley tradition, or are you trying to create something closer to the national average of strong bitters (in which case you'll probably have less crystal and more bitterness).

There's no right answer with this stuff - my personal taste is more northern, so I tend to have more bitterness.

 

[HM-2]

My £0.02 for perfect Strong Bitters:

5-5.6% ABV
An FG of 1.012
40-45 IBU
90% Floor Malted Warminster MO
5-7% Crystal (Extra Light or T50)
3% Wheat
0-2% Biscuit or Amber Malt
Notty, Old English or WLP007 fermented coolish
Minimum 10 days after hitting FG in the fermenter before kegging.

EKG is solid but my favourite hop in Strong Bitters is First Gold. Small addition at 5m and the rest from bittering charge. I often do up to 2oz in the whirlpool and same as a DH. I've also had some very good success with Charles Faram experimental hops, like CF184.

This was the last one I brewed. It's a banger.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

1.050 40IBU
80% Fawcett Spring Pale
5% C65
5% Torrified Wheat
10% Invert
A bit of black for color

Making this tonight! But I don't have torrified wheat -- I've got flaked barley or raw red wheat... can that raw red wheat just go into the normal 152F hour long mash with the rest of the grain? Or should I just stick with the flaked barley?

 

[day_trippr]

You could use the raw red wheat, it'll give a different character from torrified, and you probably need to crush it like you're pissed off at it

https://www.brewingwithbriess.com/blog/just-wheat-it/

Cheers!

 

[user 246304]

First, First Gold is da bomb. Secondly, playing with torry wheat v. wheat malt. My last batch, a best bitter done rough and ready to get some beer on cask, was a bit of a wash, as I sort of expected going in. I used wheat malt for the first time but it was not a good sampling to compare. For those who use torry v. wheat malt, what would you say are your differences?

 

[DuncB]

You can torrify the red wheat in a microwave or a pan, they don't pop like popcorn but they do swell considerably. Make sure you don't scorch the wheat if using a pan, I use the micro on 80% and stir after a few minutes. I found 2 and a half minutes stir and repeat was enough for a 100g.

 

[HM-2]

Torrified wheat IME mostly served to improve mouth feel and head retention, it doesn't really serve to add any flavour at ~5%.

I seldom use it for British beers, I prefer golden naked oats which do kinda the same thing but bring a lot more to the party.

 

[user 246304]

Torrified wheat IME mostly served to improve mouth feel and head retention, it doesn't really serve to add any flavour at ~5%.

I seldom use it for British beers, I prefer golden naked oats which do kinda the same thing but bring a lot more to the party.

How about wheat malt? (I've some from Crisp, usually use torry but wanted to play with the malt).

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

The "raw red wheat" must have converted just fine in a normal 153F (dropping to 150 over an hour) mash, because my volume and OG were both spot-on.

Question: does a beer with 5% crystal really benefit from adding some "foam enhancing" grains?

 

[DBhomebrew]

Don't worry about the foam. I think the torrified wheat is just the most recent incarnation of UK brewing's tradition of non-malted adjuncts. Mostly for tax purposes if I understand it correctly. Before the torrified wheat, flaked maize. A bit of rice. I don't sweat the difference between torrified or flaked wheat. Torrified adds a touch of toastiness.

 

[HM-2]

Question: does a beer with 5% crystal really benefit from adding some "foam enhancing" grains?

Yes? No? Maybe. Honestly, I'm not sure.

I've always done 3% wheat malt in my Strong Bitter grist and mostly fluctuated the crystal, and I've used small volumes of torrified wheat or GN oats in other British beers but I can't say as I've noticed too much of a difference except slightly higher FGs and the batches that contained them had more trouble clearing. I did a British IPA with 7% GN oats and it looked like a NEIPA.

How about wheat malt? (I've some from Crisp, usually use torry but wanted to play with the malt).

I almost always put 2-5% wheat malt in my bitters and British pale ales. I don't think it makes a huge difference but it seems to accentuate a nice crisp finish and I feel mostly helps with drinkability.

I find I seem to use invert significantly less (and in significantly lower quantities) than many regular brewers of British beers on the forum, but I also think I tend to use higher attenuating yeast.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

So my beer went from 1.057 down to 1.009, does that seem kind of low (FG) for S-04, and a 153F mash? Hoping I don't have some sort of infection...

OG: 1.057
80% bairds maris otter
5% bairds medium crystal 75L
5% raw red wheat
10% brown sugar
(and like a half-oz of patent)

 

[HM-2]

That's within spec for S-04 albeit right at the top end (72%-82%).

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

The sugar most likely helped lowering the FG. Don't sweat it though, an English bitter/pale ale typically is fairly well attenuated.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

Finally got around to trying a bottle just now. The last actual English beer I had was Bass Ale, probably 20 years ago, so I have no clue how successful this was. But this beer tastes pretty darn good already! I'm going to assume it'll be like most beers, and that it taste even better in another month or two.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

Sampled a second bottle, and I'm alarmed -- tasted a little weird, maybe a slight sourness, with the slight peachy-ness you get when fermenting US-05 too cold. (There was no US-05 involved, just s-04). Mostly alarmed, because the last imperial stout I made tasted a little sour too, tho I bottled it anyways (haven't sampled since bottling about 4 weeks ago).

This bottle was in no way over-carbonated, as I would expect with an infection... Definitely tastes worse than the bottle I tried back on the 17th in the post immediately above this one.

Will update tomorrow after I try another bottle of this "english strong bitter" tomorrow night, and one of those kinda-sour-at-bottling imperial stout bottles.

update: re-sampled 9/17/2024: this is pretty damn tasty!!!

 

[ncbrewer]

I started a thread about an infection in the Homebrewers Association forum a short time ago: https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=40442.0;topicseen
The gravity wasn’t dropping, but it had other symptoms. Reverse Apache Master (I might have misspelled the name) posted that some infections can exist but show no drop in gravity. I cleaned up based on infection, and things are looking good. I’ll note also that it seems like an increase in threads about infections recently. I hope it’s just a perception on my part, and not really an increase in infections.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

FYI - AHA forum is currently (9/9, 2PM CDT) in 'maintenance' mode. Based on emails and forum posts, they were planning to move to new forum software early this week.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

Well the glass was very clear, but so damned tasty that I dumped the rest of the bottle into the glass rather carelessly. Thanks to everyone in this thread, gonna put this one on the re-brew soon list!