Galena
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That looks better, or at least more what I would expect.
English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?
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Thanks I’ve edited it now 
Don't think I'll be using M15 Empire again. Complete sulphur bomb.
This might be the place to ask - how do you guys try to keep your milds (or ESB's), browns and porters apart? It is so easy to make them so similar...
Maris Otter can be used in all 3
East Kent Goldings can be used in all 3
1968 / Pub / etc. can be used in all 3
The only difference is the amount of brown or chocolate malt used
Maybe that's OK, but I'm trying to make my brown not taste like I simply mixed my ESB and porter recipes 50/50.
I'm thinking Maris Otter for the ESB and Brown, Pale malt for the porter (thinking the MO is "lost"). So maybe those stay as-is.
First Gold for the ESB hops, EKG for my brown, and maybe Fuggles for the porter. Should I switch those last two?
1968/Pub for the ESB, TBD for the others. 1098 British I, 1469 West Yorkshire, 1275 Thames Valley?
Maris Otter can be used in all 3
East Kent Goldings can be used in all 3
1968 / Pub / etc. can be used in all 3
The only difference is the amount of brown or chocolate malt used
Maybe that's OK, but I'm trying to make my brown not taste like I simply mixed my ESB and porter recipes 50/50.
I'm thinking Maris Otter for the ESB and Brown, Pale malt for the porter (thinking the MO is "lost"). So maybe those stay as-is.
First Gold for the ESB hops, EKG for my brown, and maybe Fuggles for the porter. Should I switch those last two?
1968/Pub for the ESB, TBD for the others. 1098 British I, 1469 West Yorkshire, 1275 Thames Valley?
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Traditional Mild, according to Ron Pattinson, gets it color and flavor from Invert #3. As in, MO + invert, and generally mild is lightly hopped. However, most folks these days use adjuncts. Here's a link to a most awesome non-traditional mild recipe that comes from Machine House Brewing in Seattle established and run by an English chap: Machine House Mild Clong What i posted is based on Bill the Brewer's recipe plus several conversations I had with him.
Bitters typically have little to no brown malt, and maybe 10% speciality crystal malt (and can be darker like 120 lovibond), and more hops than a mild. Can also be dry hopped post fermentation. Here is where you will really notice a difference between the Goldings and Fuggles familes. Brew one of each but change the hop, and you'll understand the difference clearly.
Porter would be chocolate or black patent malt for the color and flavor.
Can use MO, pale or golden promise for all three
As for yeasties,
In my humble opinion, Pub is the superior Fuller's strain out there based on multiple tests and blind tastings. Comes out better than 1968/WLP002. (A benefactor on these boards brought me a Fullers bottle fermented beer, and I have recultured it. Haven't had a chance to do a yeast off yet with Pub.)
West Yorkshire/Essex is a pretty good yeast as well. Note: Yorkshire Squares is not the same as W Yorkie, and a really difficult yeast to work with.
Nottingham is my "if you could only brew with one yeast forever, yeast." Clean, flocs well
To my palate, brown malt tastes like ass and actively avoid it.
Bitters typically have little to no brown malt, and maybe 10% speciality crystal malt (and can be darker like 120 lovibond), and more hops than a mild. Can also be dry hopped post fermentation. Here is where you will really notice a difference between the Goldings and Fuggles familes. Brew one of each but change the hop, and you'll understand the difference clearly.
Porter would be chocolate or black patent malt for the color and flavor.
Can use MO, pale or golden promise for all three
As for yeasties,
In my humble opinion, Pub is the superior Fuller's strain out there based on multiple tests and blind tastings. Comes out better than 1968/WLP002. (A benefactor on these boards brought me a Fullers bottle fermented beer, and I have recultured it. Haven't had a chance to do a yeast off yet with Pub.)
West Yorkshire/Essex is a pretty good yeast as well. Note: Yorkshire Squares is not the same as W Yorkie, and a really difficult yeast to work with.
Nottingham is my "if you could only brew with one yeast forever, yeast." Clean, flocs well
To my palate, brown malt tastes like ass and actively avoid it.
![Craft A Brew - Safale S-04 Dry Yeast - Fermentis - English Ale Dry Yeast - For English and American Ales and Hard Apple Ciders - Ingredients for Home Brewing - Beer Making Supplies - [1 Pack]](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41fVGNh6JfL._SL500_.jpg)
Read enough Pattinson and you'll realize British brewers haven't always kept the styles well separated either.
Traditional mild. Is that Victorian? Pre-WWI, interwar, post-WW2?
Traditional mild. Is that Victorian? Pre-WWI, interwar, post-WW2?
How long has it been fermenting? It might break down with a little time.
A week, but I was at a stable FG within 48 hours so it's had a reasonably decent clean-up time. Kegging probably on Monday so it's got a bit more time, but dear god it pongs worse than a German lager yeast.
On the Mild/ESB/Porter question, kmartstevens has pretty much nailed it from my perspective (most of it comes down to grain bill):
Mild: Low OG, super simple grain bill (often no crystal or colour malt at all) and colour mostly from invert.
ESB: Decent amount (~7%) 120-180 EBC crystal, maybe a bit of something higher (I often use a few percent DRC which is ~300ish). I usually use a small amount of wheat in mine too. Can be dry hopped, or have a decent whirlpool addition.
Porter: Black/patent/chocolate malt in far higher quantities than you'd use in the others.
50 years ago mild was quite popular in the UK. But it became a beer where slops and *** ash were recycled.
Only basemalt and sugar for milds was more a pre-ww1 thing, during and after ww1 when gravities fell and brewers definitely moved away from Chevallier, Crystal became more and more standard. Not anywhere near the amounts many US-ians seem to believe though.
During the 40's and 50's a small part of roast became common in some brewers milds, Lee's for example hade a period in the 50's where they put ~8% brown malt in their best mild lineups.
But in the late Victorian era (~1880-~1900) you could see some brewers beginning to get more experimental with their milds, such as the one I condition atm, 1885 Kirkstall L, wich contains a notable part brown malt, and occasionally some crystal. Although pale/mild malt and sugar was the norm.
During the 40's and 50's a small part of roast became common in some brewers milds, Lee's for example hade a period in the 50's where they put ~8% brown malt in their best mild lineups.
But in the late Victorian era (~1880-~1900) you could see some brewers beginning to get more experimental with their milds, such as the one I condition atm, 1885 Kirkstall L, wich contains a notable part brown malt, and occasionally some crystal. Although pale/mild malt and sugar was the norm.
Colindo
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@HM-2 M15 is supposed to be the same as S-04, right? I believe I heard of others having issues with sulphur when using S-04, but I never have. Could it be anything FAN-related?
@tracer bullet There are several parameters you can look at. Taking the styles as they are defined nowadays, I would go as follows:
- Hoppiness: Mild with low bitterness and subtle aroma, ESB with strong bitterness and intense aroma, Porter with strong bitterness but barely any aroma, Brown Ale with low bitterness but noticeable aroma.
- Gravity: Mild having a lower gravity, ESB the highest, Porter and Brown Ale in the middle.
- Grain Bill: Mild either pale or dark, therefore varying amounts of crystal or roasted malts. But with the lower gravity, it all tastes less intense than the others. ESB with strong crystal malt flavour, no roast flavour. Brown Ale can have hints of chocolate if going for something like Newcastle, for London Brown Ale you'll want to have sweet flavours (high mash temp + crystal malt).
Personally I would not use Maris Otter for anything stronger than 1.045, because I find the flavour too intense. Golden Promise is much better for strong ales that need a gentle nudge in the biscuity-malty direction.
@tracer bullet There are several parameters you can look at. Taking the styles as they are defined nowadays, I would go as follows:
- Hoppiness: Mild with low bitterness and subtle aroma, ESB with strong bitterness and intense aroma, Porter with strong bitterness but barely any aroma, Brown Ale with low bitterness but noticeable aroma.
- Gravity: Mild having a lower gravity, ESB the highest, Porter and Brown Ale in the middle.
- Grain Bill: Mild either pale or dark, therefore varying amounts of crystal or roasted malts. But with the lower gravity, it all tastes less intense than the others. ESB with strong crystal malt flavour, no roast flavour. Brown Ale can have hints of chocolate if going for something like Newcastle, for London Brown Ale you'll want to have sweet flavours (high mash temp + crystal malt).
Personally I would not use Maris Otter for anything stronger than 1.045, because I find the flavour too intense. Golden Promise is much better for strong ales that need a gentle nudge in the biscuity-malty direction.
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What number would you put on that "too cold" as being too cold?
Currently drinking a batch of the '52. Downright delicious in a chocolate-y roasty kind of way. I'll probably make it again, but in the brown ale slot of my rotation. A very fine session stout-y brown ale.
Mine was throwing a bit of sulfur at about 18-19 c . A friend had a sulfur bomb at about 15-16 c.
M15 is supposed to be the old Newcastle Dark Ale strain. Fermenting cold was definitely not an issue, pitched at 18°C and let it free rise to mid 20s.
I've had mild Sulphur from S-04 before but as said above only very cool and far milder than this. I've tended to ferment 04 warmer because I like it kicking a bit of esteryness.
Despite the sulphurous aroma the sample I took tasted pretty good. Got a nice dried apricot and fig thing going on which I think might be the interplay between CF185 and M15. Maybe I was being too hasty in my dismissal, because that sort of yeast profile is just what I'm looking for in stuff like old ales.
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Recipe or it didn't happen.
Allrighty then, I posted recipe earlier in the thread but can post again.
For a 21L post-boil batch, 83% efficiency.
Simpson Vienna(mild malt sub) 2190g 75%
Simpson Crystal Light 150g 5%
Wheat malt 150g 5%
Simpson Crystal Dark 90g 3%
Invert 3 350g 12%
The invert is a emulation, 50% base sugar(white refined cane) and the other half 2/3 light muscovado and 1/3 dark muscovado. Add at last 15 min.
Boil 90 min
Challenger 15.5g 60 min
EKG 15g 20 min
EKG 8g dry hop in keg
20 IBU OG 1.035 FG 1.011 abv 3.2% ( with priming sugar)
Could have attenuated just a bit more, 1.009-8 would been perfect. But a nice refreshing pint anyways.
For a rebrew I'll mash just a little bit lower.
And DO NOT dry hop in the keg!
For a 21L post-boil batch, 83% efficiency.
Simpson Vienna(mild malt sub) 2190g 75%
Simpson Crystal Light 150g 5%
Wheat malt 150g 5%
Simpson Crystal Dark 90g 3%
Invert 3 350g 12%
The invert is a emulation, 50% base sugar(white refined cane) and the other half 2/3 light muscovado and 1/3 dark muscovado. Add at last 15 min.
Boil 90 min
Challenger 15.5g 60 min
EKG 15g 20 min
EKG 8g dry hop in keg
20 IBU OG 1.035 FG 1.011 abv 3.2% ( with priming sugar)
Could have attenuated just a bit more, 1.009-8 would been perfect. But a nice refreshing pint anyways.
For a rebrew I'll mash just a little bit lower.
And DO NOT dry hop in the keg!
First, thanks!
For malts, I've been thinking ESB gets Pale, Brown gets Maris Otter, Porter gets Golden Promise.
For hops I've been thinking ESB gets First Gold, Brown gets EKG, and Porter gets Fuggles.
For yeast I'm thinking ESB gets Pub or 1968, Brown I'll try 1275 (Thames) and 1098 (Brit I) both, Porter is still TBD.
These aren't rules or anything I'm stuck on, just what I think I'll use the next time I brew each.
I'm drinking an absolutely delicious brown ale right now but had the realization that it's very much a light version of my porter. So I'm trying to make these small changes (maybe not so small, actually) to differentiate the beers.
FYI, the MO is most likely a pale ale malt. MO is a variety of barley. Pale Ale malt is a level of kilning. Really, you're looking at a choice of pale ale malts made of MO vs Golden Promise, Optic, Concerto, etc.
Also, each maltster makes a slightly different MO-based pale malt. So you will find a difference between the MO pale ale malt made by Crisp vs Fawcett vs Warminster vs Baird's. Also floor-malted vs not.
For the last year or so, I've kept two UK base malts. One, a fresh grainy variety such as Simpson's Golden Promise. The other, a maltier type such as Simpson's Best Pale Ale (Concerto). The delta between was noticable in my nearly 100% base malt bitters. When it just recently came time to restock, I chose an Optic pale (Love the stuff! Like grain straight from the field.) and a UK Vienna. The difference is largely in the kilning (2.5 vs 3.5°L), not so much in the variety of barley.
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Colindo
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@tracer bullet Sound like a solid plan. May I suggest Wyeast 1469 for the Porter? Should work well with Golden Promise and Fuggle.
I'll move it to the top of the list for the next time I brew the porter. That's a good idea. I have used it in the Brown recipe, and it was a bit funky, but not in a bad way. I was aiming for a little smoother and richer and so I decided against a future use there. I run the porters on the dry side and I think that funkiness might go very well with the rest.
That actually brings me back to the idea of using t58 in small amounts, like 10% to 30%, together with a rather clean yeast like notty or s04.
Could be interesting, also as a porter!
... Now that I think about it, I think @Northern_Brewer came up with this idea first.
Colindo
Well-Known Member
@tracer bullet Not sure about funkiness, but Wyeast 1469 is quite fruity when fermented at 21-22°C. I did a porter at 16°C once and there it creates a very neutral flavour that enhances fullness quite noticeably. I'd go with the latter for your porter.
I should have been more clear, it was definitely fruity, in a good way. I picked up a little "tang" to it, not quite sour but something a little interesting. The beer wasn't spoiled, I just thought the yeast leaned a little that direction. It was probably around the time I was also trying all the sours I could get my hands on, and I also may have had too much dark crystal influencing things, so my memory and opinion are and were probably lacking or skewed. I'll certainly give it another go.
In the end I'm just trying to get out of the Maris Otter / Medium Crystal / EKG / 1469 rut. I realized how often I use the combo and am just looking for new hops and yeasts to try, what other folks like best for each of the styles*.
(* Recognizing that ESB, Brown and Porter are just descriptions and I'm not trying to adhere to any guidelines)
In the end I'm just trying to get out of the Maris Otter / Medium Crystal / EKG / 1469 rut. I realized how often I use the combo and am just looking for new hops and yeasts to try, what other folks like best for each of the styles*.
(* Recognizing that ESB, Brown and Porter are just descriptions and I'm not trying to adhere to any guidelines)
@tracer bullet
About 5% light crystal(~100 ebc) and 3-4% amber with invert is a nice combo in a best/premium bitter.
Gives a malty sweet-ish base flavour with just a barely notable subtle toastyness, goes really well with a dry hop of some hop like Celeia or Bobek with a little citrus tang to it.
I just closed up my re-attempt of my light bitter, krausen had receded about 2/3 and some yeast pooled up at the bottom, so I decided to dry hop while there was still some activity to push out and scrub oxygen. 10/5g Fuggle/EKG dry hop combo.
About 5% light crystal(~100 ebc) and 3-4% amber with invert is a nice combo in a best/premium bitter.
Gives a malty sweet-ish base flavour with just a barely notable subtle toastyness, goes really well with a dry hop of some hop like Celeia or Bobek with a little citrus tang to it.
I just closed up my re-attempt of my light bitter, krausen had receded about 2/3 and some yeast pooled up at the bottom, so I decided to dry hop while there was still some activity to push out and scrub oxygen. 10/5g Fuggle/EKG dry hop combo.
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Which maltster for the Optic?
Fawcett Spring Pale Malt
