Eliminating Brettanomyces infection

[FrictionGnome]

About a month and a half ago I brewed a pale ale that ended up getting infected with the local wild yeast. Since then I have been unable to get rid of this infection. I have brewed two more batches since the first infected pale ale and they have both been infected. I sanitized everything with a long iodophor soak and replaced my auto siphon and tubing. I just did another batch on Saturday and I fear it is also infected and this batch was using all new equipment save one piece of tubing that was was used once before and I soaked it in iodophor for about an hour and a half. How do I get rid of this? Any ideas would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[bendavanza]

The plastic bucket?
Where do you ferment?
What do you use for an airlock, and what's in it?

 

[FrictionGnome]

The plastic bucket?
Where do you ferment?
What do you use for an airlock, and what's in it?

I am using a glass carboy and the latest batch went into a brand new better bottle. I use a three piece airlock with iodophor solution in it.

 

[Munsoned]

What type of carboy are you using? If plastic, replace it. Are you bottling or kegging? If kegging, replace every rubber gasket. If bottling, it may be in your bottling bucket.

Basically, the sanitizer may not get the bugs if they're in a piece of plastic equipment or in a rubber gasket somewhere in the brewery.

 

[Munsoned]

Another question, how do you know it's an infection and not some off-flavors from something else (brew water mineral content, e.g.)?

 

[FrictionGnome]

What type of carboy are you using? If plastic, replace it. Are you bottling or kegging? If kegging, replace every rubber gasket. If bottling, it may be in your bottling bucket.

Basically, the sanitizer may not get the bugs if they're in a piece of plastic equipment or in a rubber gasket somewhere in the brewery.

None of these batches ever made it past the fermenter. I tasted the gravity samples and could tell they were infected. So it isn't in my kegs. I have stopped using the original plastic bucket that the first infected beer was fermented in.

 

[motobrewer]

where are you grinding/mashing?

I hear grain dust can be a big source of bacteria. I'm pretty sure this is how my infected batch got bit, I dumped my grain into my tun in my small garage, where I brewed/cooled/racked. I think it kicked up a lot of grain dust that settled on my cooled wort. since then I've been mashing in the house.

 

[FrictionGnome]

Another question, how do you know it's an infection and not some off-flavors from something else (brew water mineral content, e.g.)?

I brewed a number of batches before these using the same water that turned out fine. When the first batch had the off flavor I took it to my home brewing friends and it was quickly diagnosed as being the flavor from the local wild yeast.

 

[FrictionGnome]

where are you grinding/mashing?

I hear grain dust can be a big source of bacteria. I'm pretty sure this is how my infected batch got bit, I dumped my grain into my tun in my small garage, where I brewed/cooled/racked. I think it kicked up a lot of grain dust that settled on my cooled wort. since then I've been mashing in the house.

This is a possibility that I never considered. I will definitely be moving my mashing inside to see if that helps.

 

[bendavanza]

Does undiluted iodophor have an expiration date? I know it does not last long once diluted.
Perhaps you should try another sanitizer like starsan or bleach water as an added precaution. I've become a fan of starsan since trying it and having it in a spray bottle is very convenient.

 

[bendavanza]

I'd be more concerned about where you're crushing than where you're mashing.
Also malt conditioning makes it almost dust free:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Malt_Conditioning
Motobrewer: Why was there uncovered cooled wort around where you were dumping dry grains? back to back brewing?

 

[FrictionGnome]

I'd be more concerned about where you're crushing than where you're mashing.
Also malt conditioning makes it almost dust free:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Malt_Conditioning
Motobrewer: Why was there uncovered cooled wort around where you were dumping dry grains? back to back brewing?

I am getting my grain pre crshed from the hombrew supply so that is not a concern for me. Though something to take into account should I get a mill and crush it myself.

 

[BigJay13]

1 oz bleach per gallon of water. I had two infections in a row and then soaked the carboys (glass) I used in bleach and haven't had a problem since. Just make sure you rinse well after the soak. Although after reading an article about Russian River's brewery, you may never be able to get rid of the stuff. They have equipment specifically for Bret and equipment for everything else.

 

[chefmike]

Have you bottled any of this "infected" brew?

What are the characteristics of this infection?

What made your friends so sure that it was "quickly diagnosed"?

How did they get rid of the infections they are so sure of?

I would walk through my process step by step looking for things I repeatedly do that could be unsanitary (post boil).

I would also bottle a batch of this beer to see how it develops. If the problem solving does not go well, you then have 12ozers to send out to others that may have struggled with infections to help diagnose the problem.

Just my $.02

 

[scone]

You might have gotten infected by some freaky little strain that is resistant to your current sanitation practices. You say it's wild, so it might be something that's living in your house and has been slowly adapting to living with humans and their cleaning solutions. I'd switch up your sanitizer chemicals to different ones and see if that does it. I've read that some people alternate which chemicals they use every once in a while to prevent adaptations like this...

 

[motobrewer]

I'd be more concerned about where you're crushing than where you're mashing.
Also malt conditioning makes it almost dust free:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Malt_Conditioning
Motobrewer: Why was there uncovered cooled wort around where you were dumping dry grains? back to back brewing?

I don't really know if this was the source of my infection, but I've been trying to think of something. I'm usually pretty good with sanitation. but poor sanitation is a big possibility. this was also my only brew fermented in plastic...

I was thinking that by dumping 10lb of grain into a dry bucket, that kicked up a lot of grain dust into the air (which it did). Then when the brew was done, some settled into the wort.

maybe i'm stretching a bit. i'm still mourning the loss of my porter

 

[HairyDogBrewing]

Are you sure it's infected and are you sure it's Brett?
The classic example of Brett flavor and aroma is Orval.

A lot of brewers are paranoid about infection and want to dump everything right away.
It usually takes several months for Brett flavor to assert itself.

 

[FrictionGnome]

Are you sure it's infected and are you sure it's Brett?
The classic example of Brett flavor and aroma is Orval.

A lot of brewers are paranoid about infection and want to dump everything right away.
It usually takes several months for Brett flavor to assert itself.

I am fairly certain it is infected. It is unlikely to be something else as all the recipes were different yet they all have the same off flavor. It is also not likely it is my water as I have been using the same water for all my batches and this only started happening about a month or so ago. I can't say for certain it is Brett so that may be the wrong title for this thread however I do believe it is some type of infection.

 

[chefmike]

I still have the same questions I had above... without more information, no one can really offer much.

what does it taste like? did you dump them all, or bottle?

Are you judging by the taste in the fermenter?

 

[FrictionGnome]

I still have the same questions I had above... without more information, no one can really offer much.

what does it taste like? did you dump them all, or bottle?

Are you judging by the taste in the fermenter?

I bottled some of the first batch that had this flavor in it. The taste is very difficult to describe but it is very strong and overpowering. I am judging mostly on the taste from the fermenter with the exception of the pale ale I have bottled. I am sorry that I can't provide better information. I am probably going to go ahead and clean all my equipment with acidified bleach and replace all of my tubing and pitch the plastic fermenters. I very much appreciate everyone's answers so far and maybe I am wrong and it is not an infection at all but I have no other answer as to why every beer I am doing has this odd flavor in it all of a sudden.

 

[motobrewer]

my porter that was infected (probably bacteria, not brett) got stronger over the month i had it in the primary. i brewed a batch after that (different beer, pale ale) using the same equipment but in a glass fermentor, and that's not infected. pretty good, actually.

 

[jdc2]

I bottled some of the first batch that had this flavor in it. The taste is very difficult to describe but it is very strong and overpowering.

Brett is used to make Lambics, so was it a sourish taste? The only time
I recall having an infection was in some wort that I saved overnight in
a plastic jug, it had a sour taste. A few days ago I had a Sam Adams
Boston Ale that had a January 2008 date on it. It had a ciderish taste.
Those may or may not have been brettanomyces.

Jim

 

[Cheaton]

Remember that you're not going to get infected by ANYTHING until post boil. So what happens during your mash and your crush is pretty inconsequential unless your carboy and post-boil equipment is getting coated in dust from your crush.

What yeast are you using? Are you making a starter? Do you know its fresh? Are you rehydrating (if it's dry)?

How are you cooling the wort? Where are you cooling the wort?

Maybe it's just a bad recipe...... Maybe it's a bad mash..... Maybe it's bad grain.

How are you cleaning your equipment? Are you getting all of your cleaner rinsed? I have only seen you mention santization.... not cleaning.

Maybe its the water being used. Maybe your local water has recently changed the additives they use to treat your water. Etc. Etc. Etc.

It sounds like you've ruled out infection from your equipment. Even if you did get SOME local wild yeast in your wort chances are the pitched yeast would out compete it. I Would suspect bad ingredients, bad recipes, poor cleaning, poor rinsing, or poor water quality.

 

[Cape Brewing]

I dunno... I'm really skeptical it is a brett infection and if it was, the last thing you want to do is toss the beer.

first, I would NEVER toss anything because of how it tasted in a primary. Let it ferment all of the way out and then try it. If, at the end of a month or so, you start to see a white film on the top of the fermenter, then chances are really good, you have a brett infection. And if you do... LET IT GO. DO NOT TOSS THE BEER!! Let it go another month or two and then try it. Brett is a common yeast that is intentionally used to sour beers. It's not going to hurt you and you might be shocked to have really nice beer at the end.

My money is on water quality. Are you on a town water supply? Because if you are... just because you had good water six months ago, that doesn't mean you have good water now.

The town could have done a routine water test, seen an elevated rate of a germ and nuked the water supply with chlorine... which would INSTANTLY give you a really nasty "infected" taste.

I would just clean and santize everything without killing yourself and then used bottled water from the grocery store.

If the beer comes out without the "infected" taste, you've just saved your own sanity and you know what the problem is. If it doesn't, you can continue hunting for the tiny little crevice the critters have crawled into.

 

[FrictionGnome]

I still don't think it is my water supply as another brewer in my neighborhood has not had the same issues and he is using the same water supply. As for cooling my wort I am using a copper immersion chiller with a pre chiller in an ice bath. The chiller is going into the boiling wort for the last 10 minutes for it to be sanitized. The last batch that has this flavor was cooled to about 60 degrees and yeast pitched in about 20 minutes. I have one of the batches with the odd flavor still sitting in the fermenter so I can wait and see if a pellicle will form and let my know if it is brett or not. I think for my next batch I will try the bottled water and see if that helps at all. If it does then I will know it is my water which will be great so I can get back to making beer that I want to drink.

 

[Cheaton]

Just for clarification purposes, I see you again mentioning sanitization, but not cleaning. What are you using for cleaning before/after brewing? Bleach? PBW? Oxiclean? Soap/Water? Cleaning is for sissies?

 

[FrictionGnome]

Just for clarification purposes, I see you again mentioning sanitization, but not cleaning. What are you using for cleaning before/after brewing? Bleach? PBW? Oxiclean? Soap/Water? Cleaning is for sissies?

I have been just using warm water to wash everything out before and after. I try to clean out my equipment as I am done with it. I am probably going to moving to using oxiclean or something though in light of all of my current troubles.

 

[KellyK]

I'll chime in. I don't think it's Brett. I echo what another poster said, Brett character takes much longer to develop than the flavor you're talking about. I also don't think it's your fermentation equipment as you've replaced all of it. I think it's something getting in on the front end of your process post boil.

This is my bet for the source of the problem - are you covering your wort while you are chilling with your immersion chiller? You're probably taking what, 15 minutes or so to chill. During this time, once the wort falls below 140 it's vulnerable to infection. Do you brew in the garage with the door open? Hard to stop movement of air from the outside in, and any number of little grubbies are suspended in their air and can cause problems. The DMS causing components have largely driven off by that time, so covering the pot while chilling won't cause a problem at that stage. If you're really worried about DMS you can wait until the wort hits 160 to cover. Try sanitizing alluminum foil and creating a shield over your brewpot while the chiller is in place to keep access to nasties out. The other thing, have you checked your connections on your chiller to make sure that water isn't dripping into your fermenter while you're chilling? Water from your hose running through your chiller is NOT sanitary and can contain any number of nasties as well. Sometimes small leaks are not readily apparent, check to make sure you don't have a small drip running down the chiller leads and into your boil kettle while chilling.

 

[Cheaton]

If you're not cleaning AND sanitizing you're only doing half the process and this could be the problem. You must clean EVERYTHING as well as sanitize. Sanitizing is simply a way of reducing the flora(any bacteria, wild yeasts, etc.) to tolerable levels so that those flora don't out compete your yeast in the media(wort). If you rinse out your carboy and leave behind any particulate organic matter (regardless of the sie or visibility) it will be crawling with bacteria in a short amount of time. So much that a star-san or iodophur bath may not help. You MUST CLEAN your equipment after brewing, and before brewing if it has been sitting for a while. PBW, Oxi-clean, AND some light scrubbing (or brushing). Let me tell you there is no way you're getting all of the organic matter out of vinyl tubing with an iodophur soak and warm water... NO WAY! Wort sticks to that stuff like paint!