Electric brewery plans - need help

[kal]

That's what we're here for, right? Don't get me wrong; designing and building is fun, especially for an engineer, but nothing holds a candle to brewin and drinkin.

Couldn't agree more! As an (Electrical) Engineer myself I love the idea that I've been able to take my passion of all things electrical/electronic and turn it into something that turns my friends in babbling drunks.

Congrats on your system and well done!

Kal

 

[P-J]

Tiber_Brew,

I'm very pleased with the way you have completed your system. You have done an outstanding job. Congrats!

I'm glad that I could participate in some small way by diagramming some of the electric plans.

Thanks.

P-J

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Couldn't agree more! As an (Electrical) Engineer myself I love the idea that I've been able to take my passion of all things electrical/electronic and turn it into something that turns my friends in babbling drunks.

Congrats on your system and well done!

Kal

Thanks, Kal. That means a lot coming from the creator of a system like yours. I figured you might be a "sparky" (I have no idea what the double E's call us mechanicals at work), with the creativity, functionality, and beauty of your control panel.

I know what you mean about that certain satisfaction you get when you see friends (and friends of friends) drinking and enjoying many pints of your own brew. That's part of what makes it all worth it.

Tiber_Brew,

I'm very pleased with the way you have completed your system. You have done an outstanding job. Congrats!

I'm glad that I could participate in some small way by diagramming some of the electric plans.

Thanks.

P-J

Thanks, P-J. You were of tremendous help to me, and I thank you for all your efforts in helping me get a good wiring diagram. I really like your style, and you certainly know your stuff. I'll keep in touch.

Prost,
TB

 

[wildwest450]

Very nice build. I'm still tweaking my setup, what temp do you keep you're hlt at when you're re-circulating?

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Very nice build. I'm still tweaking my setup, what temp do you keep you're hlt at when you're re-circulating?

Thanks! I dig your lean-to build, BTW...

As far as my HLT temp, that depends. If I'm maintaining a 60 min rest, I'll set my HLT 1-2 deg F higher than my desired mash temp. From my experience with my system, there is about 2 deg loss between the coil and the mash. If I'm looking for a rapid ramp (i.e. mashout from sacch), I'll set the HLT to about 174 F and turn the recirc pump on/off a couple times. Also, this way, my HLT is at sparge temp when the mashout is finished - ready for sparging. Overall, I've found the system to be quite responsive, which makes mashing much easier.

Hope this helps!
TB

 

[shuie]

TB, where is the temp probe that controls the element that maintains the mash temp? I know you are recirculating, but where are you taking the mash temp reading that turns the element on/off?

TIA

 

[Tiber_Brew]

TB, where is the temp probe that controls the element that maintains the mash temp? I know you are recirculating, but where are you taking the mash temp reading that turns the element on/off?

TIA

It doesn't quite work like that. I have an RTD probe and element in the HLT, where the HERMS coil is, and a Blichmann dial thermometer in the MLT to monitor the mash. That way, I set the HLT temp to about where I want my mash at, then I monitor the dial thermometer in the MLT for feedback. I must manually increase the HERMS temp if my mash is too low, but now that I know the loss between the two, I just set the HLT, grab a beer, and sit down.

TB

 

[klyph]

What's the temp. differential between the HLT and MT in your system? Mine is about 3 degrees Fahrenheit.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

What's the temp. differential between the HLT and MT in your system? Mine is about 3 degrees Fahrenheit.

...If I'm maintaining a 60 min rest, I'll set my HLT 1-2 deg F higher than my desired mash temp. From my experience with my system, there is about 2 deg loss between the coil and the mash...

There's your short answer, but I'll have to clarify. The two temperatures seem asymptotic in nature. Meaning, at first I thought the temp differential was around 5 deg F, so I would raise the temp of the HLT, but that resulted in too high of a mash temp after about 15-20 minutes. So then I realized that the two temps seemed to converge more if I waited longer. They never equalize, hence the asymptote, but they get to within ~1-2F after 15-20 minutes. The HERMS coil outlet is close to the top of the mash tun, and only requires a short section of silicone hose to connect the two. That's why the temp differential is fairly low - minimal losses.

TB

 

[kal]

There's your short answer, but I'll have to clarify. The two temperatures seem asymptotic in nature. Meaning, at first I thought the temp differential was around 5 deg F, so I would raise the temp of the HLT, but that resulted in too high of a mash temp after about 15-20 minutes. So then I realized that the two temps seemed to converge more if I waited longer. They never equalize, hence the asymptote, but they get to within ~1-2F after 15-20 minutes. The HERMS coil outlet is close to the top of the mash tun, and only requires a short section of silicone hose to connect the two. That's why the temp differential is fairly low - minimal losses.

I'm surprised you see any temp differential in your setup. I don't at all. I set my HLT to the temp I want to mash at and the mash always follows at the same temp. both my HLT and MLT probes are at the kettle outputs. The HLT probe is used to heat the water in the HLT, the MLT probe just displays the temp of the wort leaving the HLT. It's passive (doesn't control anything).

I did a test during my last brew on the weekend which was a light lager mashed at 148F. The test went like this:

1. Heated 20 gallons of water in the HLT to 148F.
2. Moved 6 gallons over the MLT.
3. Turned on the HERMS recirc with the pump 100% open, waited for both vessels to equalize as the MLT is initially cold.
4. Both vessles now contain 148F water. Dough in with 14 lbs of grain. The MLT temp drops from 148 to 138 because of the cold grain.
5. Turn recirc back on with the pump 100% open again. It took exactly 9 mins for the temp of the wort exiting the MLT to rise from 138F to 148F.

This quick rise time is one reason why I never bother trying to overshoot with my strike water.

I continued my test during my mash out from 148F to 168F. To do the mash out I simply turn the HLT PID from 148F to 168F and watch the MLT temp reading rise. It took exactly 21 minutes for the wort exiting the MLT to rise from 148F to 168F.

Again, maybe what helps is that I pump at 100% open without any issues with 1/2" ID hose. The wort is really moving and never gets stuck. This batch was 30% corn and rise flakes which cause lots of problems for some people requiring rice hulls (I don't need to use rice hulls). The Blichmann false bottom most certainly helps. Hats off to John for a great piece of engineering.

Kal

 

[Tiber_Brew]

I'm surprised you see any temp differential in your setup. I don't at all. I set my HLT to the temp I want to mash at and the mash always follows at the same temp. both my HLT and MLT probes are at the kettle outputs. The HLT probe is used to heat the water in the HLT, the MLT probe just displays the temp of the wort leaving the HLT. It's passive (doesn't control anything).

I did a test during my last brew on the weekend which was a light lager mashed at 148F. The test went like this:

1. Heated 20 gallons of water in the HLT to 148F.
2. Moved 6 gallons over the MLT.
3. Turned on the HERMS recirc with the pump 100% open, waited for both vessels to equalize as the MLT is initially cold.
4. Both vessles now contain 148F water. Dough in with 14 lbs of grain. The MLT temp drops from 148 to 138 because of the cold grain.
5. Turn recirc back on with the pump 100% open again. It took exactly 9 mins for the temp of the wort exiting the MLT to rise from 138F to 148F.

This quick rise time is one reason why I never bother trying to overshoot with my strike water.

I continued my test during my mash out from 148F to 168F. To do the mash out I simply turn the HLT PID from 148F to 168F and watch the MLT temp reading rise. It took exactly 21 minutes for the wort exiting the MLT to rise from 148F to 168F.

Again, maybe what helps is that I pump at 100% open without any issues with 1/2" ID hose. The wort is really moving and never gets stuck. This batch was 30% corn and rise flakes which cause lots of problems for some people requiring rice hulls (I don't need to use rice hulls). The Blichmann false bottom most certainly helps. Hats off to John for a great piece of engineering.

Kal

I never did calibrate my MLT dial thermometer, maybe that would explain the small differential? Maybe I'll pull it out of the tun and try a two point calibration.

Sometimes I try to over shoot my HLT to get a bigger delta T, for a quicker ramp. I certainly could do it the way you mentioned. I'm still getting acquainted with my system, so I'm open to trying alterations in my process (actually, no two batches of the 5 so far went exactly the same).

I'll keep this thread updated as I dial in my process.

TB

 

[kal]

Sometimes I try to over shoot my HLT to get a bigger delta T, for a quicker ramp...

I've been meaning to try that myself: Set my HLT to (say) 3-4 degrees above my mash temp and then once dough'ed in, return it to the actual mash temp. The two systems should equalize faster. I should brew up a similar beer (same # of grain) and see how much faster than 9 minutes it takes! Remind me next time I brew...

Kal

 

[Tiber_Brew]

I've been meaning to try that myself: Set my HLT to (say) 3-4 degrees above my mash temp and then once dough'ed in, return it to the actual mash temp. The two systems should equalize faster. I should brew up a similar beer (same # of grain) and see how much faster than 9 minutes it takes! Remind me next time I brew...

Kal

It would be easier for me to remind you if I was at your place on brew day

Yeah, I'm interested in what you find with your response time in converging temps if you try that. Let me know how that goes. You reminded me that I'm due to make a good light lager, too. Maybe a SMASH Pils or similar...

Good luck; have fun!
Cheers,
TB

 

[wildwest450]

I've been meaning to try that myself: Set my HLT to (say) 3-4 degrees above my mash temp and then once dough'ed in, return it to the actual mash temp. The two systems should equalize faster. I should brew up a similar beer (same # of grain) and see how much faster than 9 minutes it takes! Remind me next time I brew...

Kal

That's what I tried on my last batch. Doughed in at 164F, hit 152f right on the nose then cut temp down in the hlt. By the time my mash needed heat (15min + dough in time) my hlt was back down to recirc temps. Do you use a barley crusher on your grain? If so, what are the rollers set at? I guess I need to try recirculating faster, i'm paranoid of stuck sparges.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

That's what I tried on my last batch. Doughed in at 164F, hit 152f right on the nose then cut temp down in the hlt. By the time my mash needed heat (15min + dough in time) my hlt was back down to recirc temps. Do you use a barley crusher on your grain? If so, what are the rollers set at? I guess I need to try recirculating faster, i'm paranoid of stuck sparges.

This may be up for debate (not here though), but depending on your false bottom, you might not want to recirc too fast. You might have to play around with different flow rates and monitor the MLT for channeling or stuck mash.

TB

 

[kal]

You reminded me that I'm due to make a good light lager, too. Maybe a SMASH Pils or similar...

I did this one as I need something fast: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f62/cream-three-crops-cream-ale-66503/

Do you use a barley crusher on your grain? If so, what are the rollers set at?

I use the cheapest Monster Mill. Set pretty loose. .045" I think. My efficiency's in the 93-95% range.

I would not recirc fast if it wasn't for my Blichmann false bottom. I brewed a wheat beer with 70% wheat and 30% pils without any rice hulls without issues with this false bottom. Trying to suck that much liquid through a small mesh or something similar is asking for trouble.

Kal

 

[wildwest450]

I would not recirc fast if it wasn't for my Blichmann false bottom. I brewed a wheat beer with 70% wheat and 30% pils without any rice hulls without issues with this false bottom. Trying to suck that much liquid through a small mesh or something similar is asking for trouble.

Kal

That's what i'm using.

 

[klyph]

I'm willing to bet the temp differential has to do with the ambient temp of the brewery. I'm in a cold basement and my mash probe is in the bottom of the tun that sits on a metal table (heat sink). I think if the basement was warmer, or the mash tun was insulated...
There are a lot of minutiae that can make big differences in our processes.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

I'm willing to bet the temp differential has to do with the ambient temp of the brewery. I'm in a cold basement and my mash probe is in the bottom of the tun that sits on a metal table (heat sink). I think if the basement was warmer, or the mash tun was insulated...
There are a lot of minutiae that can make big differences in our processes.

You're right that there are a number of factors that can contribute to losses between the two tuns. Even temp sensing equipment will vary. At our level, I wouldn't worry about 1-5 deg F differential. The most important thing is consistency and quality. If you are well adjusted to your system, and use the same process every time, I'm sure the beer will be great batch after batch.

I'd really like to join you other eHERMS brewers for a brew day on your systems, and have you over for one of my brew days; I think we could really learn a lot from each other quickly. Oh, well. Pictures and stories will have to do.

TB

 

[WAORGANY]

First and fore most thanks!!! This is an awesome system and just spent the better part of four hours reading through your entire thread EHERMS build from start to finish while enjoying several pints of Summer Ale from my near by Keggarator....I am sold and will be furthering my research and design ideas for my own Electric HERMS. You have made a great system, in function, design, and I for one am very impressed by your knowledge and skill. Thanks for a very informative afternoon. I look forward to more as you continue to brew on this and I will most definitely be asking a few questions as I move forward on my build...now to remodel our kitchen for my wife so I can build my very own HERMS!!!! Cheers, all the best!!!

 

[Tiber_Brew]

First and fore most thanks!!! This is an awesome system and just spent the better part of four hours reading through your entire thread EHERMS build from start to finish while enjoying several pints of Summer Ale from my near by Keggarator....I am sold and will be furthering my research and design ideas for my own Electric HERMS. You have made a great system, in function, design, and I for one am very impressed by your knowledge and skill. Thanks for a very informative afternoon. I look forward to more as you continue to brew on this and I will most definitely be asking a few questions as I move forward on my build...now to remodel our kitchen for my wife so I can build my very own HERMS!!!! Cheers, all the best!!!

Thanks for the compliments!

I'm glad this thread has been informative for you. I'd be happy to try and help you with any questions you have during your build. Good luck with your kitchen remodel, and of course, your new brew rig build!

Cheers,
TB

 

[TheDom]

Awesome build, thank you so much for taking the time to put everything on here. I'm in the early phases of an electric build, also known as convincing the wife to let me build one, and this has been immensely helpful. I really look forward to seeing the list of parts and cost of the whole endeavor.

 

[WAORGANY]

Thanks for the compliments!

I'm glad this thread has been informative for you. I'd be happy to try and help you with any questions you have during your build. Good luck with your kitchen remodel, and of course, your new brew rig build!

Cheers,
TB

Thanks...I was just moving some things in the garage to make room for the contractors items for the remodel and a 240v outlet that I forgot about...maybe I am closer to my eHERMS build faster than I thought LOL....all the best, and thanks for the offer to help, I am sure I will need it!

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Awesome build, thank you so much for taking the time to put everything on here. I'm in the early phases of an electric build, also known as convincing the wife to let me build one, and this has been immensely helpful. I really look forward to seeing the list of parts and cost of the whole endeavor.

Glad you like the build! The parts list is coming, I promise. It won't have everything I used, but will have everything you need to build a working system.

My wife was happy that I wouldn't need to use the kitchen for brewing at all anymore, so that helps with getting the thumbs up approval from the Mrs... She also loves my beers, so making more of it, more often, was a plus for both of us!

Thanks...I was just moving some things in the garage to make room for the contractors items for the remodel and a 240v outlet that I forgot about...maybe I am closer to my eHERMS build faster than I thought LOL....all the best, and thanks for the offer to help, I am sure I will need it!

No problem. We'll have to take a closer look at that 240 outlet when the time comes. We'll see if you can end up using that. Have you checked your service panel yet?

TB

 

[WAORGANY]

My wife was happy that I wouldn't need to use the kitchen for brewing at all anymore, so that helps with getting the thumbs up approval from the Mrs... She also loves my beers, so making more of it, more often, was a plus for both of us!

No problem. We'll have to take a closer look at that 240 outlet when the time comes. We'll see if you can end up using that. Have you checked your service panel yet?TB

Yeah with us building a new kitchen that will end up costing us about 1 third of what we paid for the entire house and land....my days of brewing in the kitchen are numbered....so for the time being I will use to old stove in the garage...and then start working on my e-HERMS System Build....

Yeah I looked at the service panel, it looks like it is a 200amp Service, (that is what the main circuit breaker is. I have various circuits from 15, 20, 30, and 60 amps, and several empty slots, (which will be used and filled during the kitchen remodel, so everything in there will have a dedicated line.) None of these appear to be GFCI. The outlet in the garage is a four prong, 30A outlet, says 250v on it, is feed by two separate 110V lines.

Eventuality I will want to move my brewery system inside to a heated space, where my keggarator is (the WAORGANY Brewery and Pub, and Climbing Wall). So for now I think the garage will work, until I can work on running additional wiring and plumbing in the future Brewery/Pub site...

Can I use a GFCI that is built in to the cord that runs from my e-HERMS control box to the wall outlet (240V) and be good to go? I will post pics of my wall outlet and breaker box when the camera's battery is finished charging.... guess I am going to have to start my own e-HERMS Brewery Build thread too!!! Thanks again for all the help.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Yeah with us building a new kitchen that will end up costing us about 1 third of what we paid for the entire house and land....my days of brewing in the kitchen are numbered....so for the time being I will use to old stove in the garage...and then start working on my e-HERMS System Build....

Yeah I looked at the service panel, it looks like it is a 200amp Service, (that is what the main circuit breaker is. I have various circuits from 15, 20, 30, and 60 amps, and several empty slots, (which will be used and filled during the kitchen remodel, so everything in there will have a dedicated line.) None of these appear to be GFCI. The outlet in the garage is a four prong, 30A outlet, says 250v on it, is feed by two separate 110V lines.

Eventuality I will want to move my brewery system inside to a heated space, where my keggarator is (the WAORGANY Brewery and Pub, and Climbing Wall). So for now I think the garage will work, until I can work on running additional wiring and plumbing in the future Brewery/Pub site...

Can I use a GFCI that is built in to the cord that runs from my e-HERMS control box to the wall outlet (240V) and be good to go? I will post pics of my wall outlet and breaker box when the camera's battery is finished charging.... guess I am going to have to start my own e-HERMS Brewery Build thread too!!! Thanks again for all the help.

Just saw this, not sure how I missed that. I'll take a closer look when I get home, but it sounds like you have a couple viable options. I'll be in touch later.

TB

 

[Tiber_Brew]

I'm brewing a couple 10 gal batches this weekend (brewing 10 gal of IPA as I type) to fill my capacity (can you say "pipeline"?), then I'm taking the stand in to the shop to get powder coated! :rockin:

I'll post pictures of the final product.

TB

 

[WAORGANY]

I'm brewing a couple 10 gal batches this weekend (brewing 10 gal of IPA as I type) to fill my capacity (can you say "pipeline"?), then I'm taking the stand in to the shop to get powder coated! :rockin:

I'll post pictures of the final product.

TB

Nice cant' wait to see the outcome!!!

 

[TheDom]

Woo pics! After reading every page of this thread, it'll be great to see pics of the finished product. Rock on Tiber!

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Thanks for the support you guys!




OK, 2nd batch of the weekend is done and was a success. I brewed a Bavarian style hefe with 10 lbs wheat malt, and 8 lbs of German Pilsner malt. No stuck mash, even without any rice hulls! Hit all my temps and volumes, and only took 5 hours from heating strike water to end of CIP. Man, I love this thing.

I'm just 10 gallons shy of being at my full 70 gal capacity (not counting bottles of course), so I have plenty of beer to keep me, wife, friends, etc., company while the stand is getting powder coated.

Cheers,
TB