eKettle stuck at 199F

[dougp]

For some reason I can't get anything above 199F to 202F. I had an electrician verify all my wiring, hell, he built my controller and we did test everything so I know the stick is getting 240v. Any ideas on what could keep me from going over 200F to hit boiling?

 

[wilserbrewer]

How many watts?
How many gallons?
Kettle dimensions?

 

[dougp]

5500w element, 6 gallons (I was trying to see my boil off) and it's a 15g keggle.

 

[runningweird]

How are you controlling the element? Pid with an ssr? Or PWM, or all on all the time?

 

[dougp]

How are you controlling the element? Pid with an ssr? Or PWM, or all on all the time?

PID (SYL-2352) through SSR.

Basically this: http://www.ebrewsupply.com/shop/ebrew-kits/ebrew-pid-kits/biab-30a-kit.html

 

[Flomaster]

are you running in manual mode or auto mode?

put it in manual mode at 100% and let er rip

-=jason=-

 

[dougp]

are you running in manual mode or auto mode?

put it in manual mode at 100% and let er rip

-=jason=-

Yeah, I put it in manual and made sure it was at 100%. Still no dice ...

 

[Flomaster]

would the water/ wort appear to be boiling?
have you checked your temp probe against a known calibrated thermometer?
do you have the temocouple set to the correct one in the PID?

-=Jason=-

 

[dougp]

would the water/ wort appear to be boiling?
have you checked your temp probe against a known calibrated thermometer?
do you have the temocouple set to the correct one in the PID?

-=Jason=-

The water was bubbling - but not boiling. I compared it against my Thermapen, and they were spot on. I've made sure the probe is set to the correct one in the PID.

 

[phreaky]

How long did you try? Just to test, try plugging the element straight into the wall and see what it does. That will give guaranteed 100% and should boil. 5500 watts has no problem boiling 13 gallons in my keggle, usually at 75% so not sure what you've got going on.

 

[dougp]

How long did you try? Just to test, try plugging the element straight into the wall and see what it does. That will give guaranteed 100% and should boil. 5500 watts has no problem boiling 13 gallons in my keggle, usually at 75% so not sure what you've got going on.

Don't have a plug in the wall I can try, unfortunately. Both my dryer and the plug for my controller are 4 pin while my element is 3 pin.

I let it sit for an hour or so - I was working on my truck. It took forever to bring it up to temperature.

Could it be because the PID pulses?

 

[phreaky]

Don't have a plug in the wall I can try, unfortunately. Both my dryer and the plug for my controller are 4 pin while my element is 3 pin.

I let it sit for an hour or so - I was working on my truck. It took forever to bring it up to temperature.

Could it be because the PID pulses?

If the pid is pulsing, it's not running at 100%. The light on the ssr, and the pid output light should not blink at all. If you still want to try plugging it in directly, you can put the 4 prong plug on the element wire, and just not use the neutral pin. One hour should be more than enough time to get to full rolling boil.

 

[dougp]

If the pid is pulsing, it's not running at 100%. The light on the ssr, and the pid output light should not blink at all. If you still want to try plugging it in directly, you can put the 4 prong plug on the element wire, and just not use the neutral pin. One hour should be more than enough time to get to full rolling boil.

I've done this. No lights were blinking/pulsing. I'll report back in 15-20 minutes, that excel sheet said I should only take 24 minutes or less to get to boil.

 

[dougp]

Must be the element - it heated slowly as well. I can't believe a freaking element would fail, it's such a simple thing. Worst part is, I sealed it into the cap for my mount already.

 

[Flomaster]

Must be the element - it heated slowly as well. I can't believe a freaking element would fail, it's such a simple thing. Worst part is, I sealed it into the cap for my mount already.

what a great time to upgrade to a tri-clover elment installation

www.brewhardware.com *wink* *wink*

I bought a solder tri-clover from bobby_M and I'll be buying my element enclosures from him too.


-=Jason=-

 

[dougp]

what a great time to upgrade to a tri-clover elment installation

www.brewhardware.com *wink* *wink*

I bought a solder tri-clover from bobby_M and I'll be buying my element enclosures from him too.


-=Jason=-

I have Bobby's element enclosure and such, but the problem is I have a 1" NPT spud (from him) welded in. Going triclover isn't much of an option.

 

[LandoLincoln]

How much water are you heating as a test? I think that that some guy on here did an element test with a small amount of water and the water really didn't do a whole lot, but when he added the full amount of water the temps got a lot higher due to the extra thermal mass or some crazy physics stuff. Or maybe I was drunk and dreamed up the whole thing.

 

[dougp]

How much water are you heating as a test? I think that that some guy on here did an element test with a small amount of water and the water really didn't do a whole lot, but when he added the full amount of water the temps got a lot higher due to the extra thermal mass or some crazy physics stuff. Or maybe I was drunk and dreamed up the whole thing.

I'm heating 6 gallons. If I can't heat 6 gallons, then I can't brew a batch of beer .

 

[LandoLincoln]

I'm heating 6 gallons. If I can't heat 6 gallons, then I can't brew a batch of beer .

Six gallons in a keg is a sufficient amount, I would think. But just for fun I'd heat up 12 gallons and see what happens. In the name of science.

 

[dougp]

Six gallons in a keg is a sufficient amount, I would think. But just for fun I'd heat up 12 gallons and see what happens. In the name of science.

At this point I'm going to wait for a new element on Thursday.

 

[Bsquared]

For some reason I can't get anything above 199F to 202F. I had an electrician verify all my wiring, hell, he built my controller and we did test everything so I know the stick is getting 240v. Any ideas on what could keep me from going over 200F to hit boiling?

Did you have him check how many amps the element is pulling or just the voltage? This might give you an idea of where the problem is, with the element or the PID/SSR settings.

 

[sennister]

At this point I'm going to wait for a new element on Thursday.

Do you have an ohmmeter? Check the resistance in the heating element.

Ohm's Law tells us that an element rated for 5500W at 240V should have a resistance of 10.47273 Ohms with a current of 22.91667 Amps

 

[dougp]

Do you have an ohmmeter? Check the resistance in the heating element.

Ohm's Law tells us that an element rated for 5500W at 240V should have a resistance of 10.47273 Ohms with a current of 22.91667 Amps

No, I'm about to buy a multimeter - all I have is a voltage meter to see if my outlets are turned on or not. I thought most consumer multimeters max out at 10 Amps? Or do I just measure the Ohms ...

 

[dyqik]

You unplug the element (!) and measure the resistance with it disconnected. It might be worth doing this both hot and cold - it's possible the element shorts/opens at high temperatures.

Just as a final sanity check, this element doesn't have a safety thermal cut out or anything, does it? A bucket heater, for example, often won't boil because it has a thermal shutoff that stops it going above 200F or so.

 

[dougp]

You unplug the element (!) and measure the resistance with it disconnected. It might be worth doing this both hot and cold - it's possible the element shorts/opens at high temperatures.

Just as a final sanity check, this element doesn't have a safety thermal cut out or anything, does it? A bucket heater, for example, often won't boil because it has a thermal shutoff that stops it going above 200F or so.

It's this one - http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001RD7MK0/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Is there any way I can check fro a safety thermal cut? I assumed it was just like the squiggly one, I don't use that one because my false bottom can't sit flat with it.

 

[sennister]

No, I'm about to buy a multimeter - all I have is a voltage meter to see if my outlets are turned on or not. I thought most consumer multimeters max out at 10 Amps? Or do I just measure the Ohms ...

Max Amp doesn't matter for checking Ohm. As mentioned by the other member disconnect the element and measure the resistance across the hot connectors. If you wanted to take a quick look just to see if was way off, if you have a plug on the wire going from the element to the panel you could check it there. Unplug the element from the panel and check the resistance across the hot plugs. It won't be a perfect reading because there is a some resistance in the wires but it might be able to spot check it there without taking much apart.

I wouldn't worry much about the amp reading. You are right in that consumer models are not made for testing this. Heck I have a high end Fluke which is a commercial unit and I would blow the fuses trying to check current. If I want to measure that I have a different meter which is the clamp style that just goes around the wire.

Going back to ohms law. You are looking for about 10.47 Ohms resistance as I mentioned. There really isn't a need to test for current (Amps). This is because you can use ohm's law to calculate what it is. If you know any 2 of the values you can calculate the other values.

http://www.ohmslawcalculator.com/ohms_law_calculator.php

So if we know the voltage is 240V and the rating of the element is 5500W then we can figure out what the resistance should be as well as what the calculated current should be. That is how I came up with those numbers for you.

You can change it up though. Again you know your voltage (240v) or for kicks, plug in your actual measured value. Maybe it is 238V. You can measure Resistance of the element with the Ohm Meter. So that is another measurable value. So lets say you actually have 238V and a measured resistance of 15 Ohms. That would calculate out to 15.86667 Amps and your element is outputting 3776.26667 watts even though it is rated for 5500Watts.

The thing about trying to measure Amps is that if you don't have the right tools and know what you are doing, it is pretty dangerous. It is much safer to measure values that you can and trust the math. You can safely measure resistance and voltage with minor precautions and a basic multimeter. It will tell you everything you need to know.

If there is a safety cutout on the element it would suck to order a new one of the same model just to have the issue again. I don't remember if you said this is a new rig or if it worked in the past but this is a new issue. I think it is all new. Defective parts happen but maybe you ordered the wrong element. I know that many people around here use this one for a 5500W element.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BPG4LI/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[dougp]

Max Amp doesn't matter for checking Ohm. As mentioned by the other member disconnect the element and measure the resistance across the hot connectors. If you wanted to take a quick look just to see if was way off, if you have a plug on the wire going from the element to the panel you could check it there. Unplug the element from the panel and check the resistance across the hot plugs. It won't be a perfect reading because there is a some resistance in the wires but it might be able to spot check it there without taking much apart.

I wouldn't worry much about the amp reading. You are right in that consumer models are not made for testing this. Heck I have a high end Fluke which is a commercial unit and I would blow the fuses trying to check current. If I want to measure that I have a different meter which is the clamp style that just goes around the wire.

Going back to ohms law. You are looking for about 10.47 Ohms resistance as I mentioned. There really isn't a need to test for current (Amps). This is because you can use ohm's law to calculate what it is. If you know any 2 of the values you can calculate the other values.

http://www.ohmslawcalculator.com/ohms_law_calculator.php

So if we know the voltage is 240V and the rating of the element is 5500W then we can figure out what the resistance should be as well as what the calculated current should be. That is how I came up with those numbers for you.

You can change it up though. Again you know your voltage (240v) or for kicks, plug in your actual measured value. Maybe it is 238V. You can measure Resistance of the element with the Ohm Meter. So that is another measurable value. So lets say you actually have 238V and a measured resistance of 15 Ohms. That would calculate out to 15.86667 Amps and your element is outputting 3776.26667 watts even though it is rated for 5500Watts.

The thing about trying to measure Amps is that if you don't have the right tools and know what you are doing, it is pretty dangerous. It is much safer to measure values that you can and trust the math. You can safely measure resistance and voltage with minor precautions and a basic multimeter. It will tell you everything you need to know.

If there is a safety cutout on the element it would suck to order a new one of the same model just to have the issue again. I don't remember if you said this is a new rig or if it worked in the past but this is a new issue. I think it is all new. Defective parts happen but maybe you ordered the wrong element. I know that many people around here use this one for a 5500W element.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BPG4LI/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Thanks. I have one of these ripple elements as well, I just have issues fitting it under my false bottom. What does the safety cutout look like, so I can look for it on this element?

 

[sennister]

Thanks. I have one of these ripple elements as well, I just have issues fitting it under my false bottom. What does the safety cutout look like, so I can look for it on this element?

Not sure as I haven't seen one with the cutout. There really isn't much to an element. Can you compare the base of the one you are trying to use with the ripple version since you mentioned you had both. I would imagine it is something in the base.

I looked at the description on the one you got and there was no mention of the cutout. Doesn't mean that the description is accurate though.

 

[sennister]

I should add that while the one you have resists damage from dry firing it might be possible that it survived it if one happened. This is where the resistance (Ohms) will help diagnose the issue.

While you can throw parts at a problem. It is often wiser to diagnose the problem first. At least narrow things down the best you can.

 

[dougp]

I should add that while the one you have resists damage from dry firing it might be possible that it survived it if one happened. This is where the resistance (Ohms) will help diagnose the issue.

While you can throw parts at a problem. It is often wiser to diagnose the problem first. At least narrow things down the best you can.

I agree. A coworker is bringing me a multimeter tomorrow to use, and I'll compare the elements tonight. I might even test the ripple one as well.

Thanks! :rockin: