Efficiency too high?

[LovesIPA]

Some of you might be aware that I've been trying to troubleshoot why a lot of my batches (but not all) have come out tasting pretty awful. I've been trying to come up with other possible culprits besides water profile and infection (please don't derail this thread and bring those topics up here, thanks) and I'm wondering if my mash efficiency is too high, if there is such a thing.

I grind with my monster mill 2.0 and it's set to 0.030"- standard credit card width. I don't have a feeler gauge. The crush always looks excellent. Some flour and no uncracked grains. I mash in a 10 gallon Igloo cooler with a copper manifold. I fly sparge with a spaghetti colander sitting on top of the igloo. See pic below.

Except in the case of equipment problems, I have never had a stuck sparge in 50+ batches.

I consistently get low to mid 90's efficiency. If it's below 90 then I either spilled some wort or had too many HB's and didn't measure something right. I've checked it will different efficiency calculators, calibrated my scale, checked volumes (a gallon of water weighs exactly 8 lbs, 5.5 oz), checked my thermometer in boiling water and an ice bath and everything checks out. I don't doubt that I'm really hitting these numbers.

I don't always check the gravity of the final runnings but when I have it's ALWAYS above 1.010, usually by at least 7 points.

So is this a problem? Should I make an effort to adjust this?

 

[opiate82]

Why don't you take one of your recipes you have been having issues with and trying it with a coarser crush? If you are getting off flavors due to "too high of an efficiency" seems like a good place to start.

 

[wobdee]

Yeah, I bet it's your finer crush. When I adjusted my mill down to credit card size my efficiencies jumped up as well. I'm thinking of adjusting back to get less flour and clearer wort.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[LovesIPA]

I don't have clarity issues, and even if I did I would care more about how the beer tastes than anything else.

I know I can adjust the gap to get a coarser crush but my question is this: Can 90%+ efficiency create problems in and of itself?

Also I should note that the term "off-flavor" doesn't really do this problem justice. I've had to dump batches because the flavor doesn't condition out and makes the beer undrinkable. People that have tried it (myself included) have spit it back into the glass and dumped the rest in the sink. It's AWFUL. I'm skeptical that mash efficiency could have this effect but I'm trying to explore every possible cause.

 

[opiate82]

I haven't really explored this too much, but my understanding is that off flavors coming from 'too high of an efficiency' are generally either going to be astringency or excess tannin extraction. So to answer your question, yes, over-milled grain (which would give you better efficiency) can create flavor problems.

 

[sabitu]

I also have the monster mill 2.0 and I have my gap set at .42. My mash efficiency is around 80%. I have a 10 gallon igloo cooler like yours but i use an ss braid in mine.

I would try increasing the gap and see if that helps. I know if I set my mill gap at .30 my efficiency would be way too high if there is such a thing.

 

[insanim8er]

Well first off what is awful about the beer? Are you getting tannins? If so, maybe it's your crush/efficiency. Or maybe it's your mash ph. Or, since you fly sparge and your efficiency is so high, you could be sparging the gravity too low thus extracting tannins. If it's not tannins, maybe you're barking up the wrong tree.

 

[stpug]

Is it possible that you're dealing with a brewhouse infection?

 

[stpug]

Ohhh......

Or, have you checked your water profile for the beer you're brewing?

 

[insanim8er]

Is it possible that you're dealing with a brewhouse infection?

Ooh... He said not to bring that up. You broke the rules!

 

[stpug]

That's probably where I would start

Seriously though, I highly doubt that your high efficiency is causing an "awful" beer. I would look elsewhere - of course, it's pretty easy to open the gap a hair and see if your results improve.

My MM2 gap is at 0.037, batch sparge, and my mash efficiency is in the low to upper 80s. I think my beers rock. I also do a fair amount with sulfates, chloride, and pH per the style of beer I'm brewing.

 

[insanim8er]

I think if it is efficiency, he's over sparging.

 

[max384]

If your beer is so bad that you have to dump it, I doubt it's due to tannins (high mash efficiency).

How are you getting low to mid 90s mash efficiency if your final runnings are 1.017 or higher? Are you sure you're calculating them correctly?

EDIT: Or are you batch sparging? I assumed fly sparging since you're measuring final runnings, which I've always thought was something you only did when fly sparging, not batch sparging.

 

[grathan]

If your mash PH is on the high-side to begin with, then nothing good can come from 90%+ efficienciy. You're also assuming that your lautering is rinsing all the grains equally, some might be getting hosed 3x more than others.

Some books talk about the "no-sparge method". it would be worth trying as an experiment to see what the difference is.


I also agree with the poster above me. You can't get %90 if your final runnings are 1.017.

 

[LovesIPA]

I'm pretty confident that the mash pH is in the right range. I use RO water (TDS meter reads 1 PPM) and I build it back up with salts using Bru 'N water. I don't have a pH meter but it models my mash pH between 5.2 and 5.5. Honestly I'm not even sure what tannins taste like but if they don't make you want to spit the beer back out I guess that's not what I'm facing. It's like an overly sweet flavor (but not in a sugar-sweet good way, if that makes sense) and strong aroma with an overly sour bite and finish. I brewed a super hoppy IPA which was awesome at kegging time but after a day in the keg the hop flavor and aroma had mostly disappeared and this sweet/sour taste and aroma were overpowering.

People have me pretty well convinced that it's not an infection. The beer is OK out of the fermenter but in the case of this last batch, withing 24 hours of being racked to the keg it was pretty gross. I could see a dramatic change in flavor like that if I pitched an entire vial of lacto, or if there was a pellicle growing in primary. It just doesn't seem all that realistic considering that the keg is completely disassembled, cleaned with piping hot water and PBW, rinsed well, soaked in star-san, put back together wet and purged with CO2 immediately before racking. I don't even hook up the tap side until I take the first pull.

I'm brewing tomorrow. I will measure the final runnings. I bet they are above 1.015. Yes I'm sure I'm measuring gravity correctly. I've checked my hydrometer in distilled water (dead on) and I've checked my thermometer in boiling water and an ice bath. It reads within 0.5 degrees both ways.

I honestly doubt that it's possible to make undrinkable beer because of a 90%+ mash efficiency but I am just plain running out of ideas.

 

[insanim8er]

well looks like you got it all figured out since you doubt it's just about everything everyone has suggested... maybe you just suck at making beer?

It's kind of annoying when someone asks for help, but "doubts" it's anything everyone suggests with out actually making the attempt to see if it is that. I think instead of "doubting" it's this and that... try actually making changes and see where the results take you.

You have to make controlled changes, to pin point the issue. You can't say for certain it's not your PH with out having a meter, but chances are if it's a "Sweet" issue, it's not that. Best way to describe tannins is tasting a tea where you squeeze the tea bag into the water. It's that bitter astringent taste. But unless all your beers are this same "sweet" issue, it's hard to say what your problem is. You describe things as "awful" and "Gross" but we need more description to pin point it.

The sour makes me think infection, but you're convinced it's not that... I can't imagine overly sweet would make you want to "spit it out" so again, better description of what you're tasting will help. I don't know what your water additions are, but maybe try brewing with out modifying your water profile.

Swetness could be due to improper mash temps, pitching bad/underpitching yeast, or you may be mashing too high? If you don't have a thermapen, your thermometer could be off?

You may not be attenuating properly. Are you doing those numbers? What's your fermentation schedule like? I assume you temp control. Assuming you take notes, what are your OG and FG for some of these bad beers? How long do you let your beer age before you keg?

Have these beers improved, got worse, or stayed the same with age?

Look at this:

http://morebeer.com/content/homebrew-off-flavors

"Sour/Acidic Tastes/Smells Like:
Vinegary, acrid, felt on the sides of the tongue towards back of the mouth
Possible Causes: Extremely sour or vinegary flavors are almost always the result of a bacterial or wild yeast infection."

I mean from your description, I feel like you fermenting is stalling, allowing for infection to take over and low attenuation. So your beer is sour and overly sweet.

 

[Facinerous]

I've read through your other thread. I can understand your frustration.

The most I can say with relation to this thread is having an extremely high mash efficiency shouldn't effect flavor, but it can. Any off flavor derived from the mash would most likely be from excessive tannen extraction. Over sparging could be a culprit.

Here is a quick link. Common off flavors. From what you have described would you consider the off flavor to be astringent? If so then your crush really could have something to do with it. I think the gap you have set is one of the smallest I have read around this forum.

Either way, good luck figuring out this problem. Between this thread, and the other thread you have going on you surely have many things you can try.

 

[bbrim]

I would also be concerned that efficiency in the 90's was the culprit. I has hitting mid to upper 80's when I first set up my RIMS system and I got horrible astringency. I dialed back the efficiency by sparging faster, and when I make a small beer I will use a small amount of sparge water and top up my kettle. If you really want to check if efficiency is your problem, it would be a worthwhile experiment to do one batch no-sparge. I think this is likely your problem, but without tasting your beer there is no way to be sure.

 

[MattGuk]

Just thought i would throw this out there,
I always used to get funny flavors that were kinda astringent and make me think " what the hell is that, thats not meant to be there", i now only carry out no sparge and never get that flavor anymore, not evem in lighter styles, so maybe give that a shot and see where you end up.

 

[opiate82]

It's like an overly sweet flavor (but not in a sugar-sweet good way, if that makes sense) and strong aroma with an overly sour bite and finish. I brewed a super hoppy IPA which was awesome at kegging time but after a day in the keg the hop flavor and aroma had mostly disappeared and this sweet/sour taste and aroma were overpowering.

the keg is completely disassembled, cleaned with piping hot water and PBW, rinsed well, soaked in star-san, put back together wet and purged with CO2 immediately before racking. I don't even hook up the tap side until I take the first pull.

Could be oxidation. I have had beers that were seemingly fine coming out of the fermenter, put into a purged keg in much the same manner as you describe that once sampled out of the keg were obviously oxidized. Turns out I have a couple of bucket fermenters that I just can't trust the lid to get a good seal on. If left for a long primary in one of the suspect fermenters the beer would end up oxidized.

Mine had that trademark sweet-sherry like taste with a metallic mouthfeel. Never got to the "wet cardboard" point.

 

[insanim8er]

Could be oxidation.

That would be a cardboard flavor.

 

[Sbarnard80]

Try batch sparging instead and also bottle a few to confirm it has nothing to do with the keg setup.

 

[opiate82]

That would be a cardboard flavor.

Sherry-like off flavors are also a product of oxidation.

 

[insanim8er]

Sherry-like off flavors are also a product of oxidation.

Ya, true... I just don't think sweet. but I guess there could be some validity to that. I've heard of pineapple type flavors from oxidization as well. That could be considered sweet...

 

[stpug]

I'm pretty confident that the mash pH is in the right range. I use RO water (TDS meter reads 1 PPM) and I build it back up with salts using Bru 'N water. I don't have a pH meter but it models my mash pH between 5.2 and 5.5. Honestly I'm not even sure what tannins taste like but if they don't make you want to spit the beer back out I guess that's not what I'm facing. It's like an overly sweet flavor (but not in a sugar-sweet good way, if that makes sense) and strong aroma with an overly sour bite and finish. I brewed a super hoppy IPA which was awesome at kegging time but after a day in the keg the hop flavor and aroma had mostly disappeared and this sweet/sour taste and aroma were overpowering.

People have me pretty well convinced that it's not an infection. The beer is OK out of the fermenter but in the case of this last batch, withing 24 hours of being racked to the keg it was pretty gross. I could see a dramatic change in flavor like that if I pitched an entire vial of lacto, or if there was a pellicle growing in primary. It just doesn't seem all that realistic considering that the keg is completely disassembled, cleaned with piping hot water and PBW, rinsed well, soaked in star-san, put back together wet and purged with CO2 immediately before racking. I don't even hook up the tap side until I take the first pull.

Man, I'd love to get a taste of your beer even if I couldn't help then for no other reason to taste awful homebrew . While I've had plenty of terrible tasting homebrew in my life, it's been a while. I'm used to the antiseptic / bandaid bad flavors, and I've had a terrible wine that tasted EXACTLY like acetone. It's nice to be able to taste something bad and put a name/condition to it - it's a learning experience. Unfortunately, when the situation is consistently bad beer and you think you're doing everything totally right then it's frustrating.

Based on your quote above, there seem to be several possibilities that could be causing the bad beer.

First, I'd ask myself, am I just being overly sensitive to my homebrew? Maybe it's not as bad as I'm making it out to be and I'm just being picky. Is this even possible, or is the beer so bad that this cannot be the case?

Next, I'd think that if the beer is perfect out of the fermenter and terrible out of the keg, then you know where your problem lies. It's lies somewhere between the "transfer from fermenter to keg" and "dispensing from keg". If you are finding a consistency to all of your bad beers then maybe it's as simple as the CO2 (or CO2 tank). Is it possible for your to swap your CO2 tank out for a different one with fresh CO2?

Alternatively, you could bust out your muscles and motivation, and bottle your next batch. See if your problem appears in a bottled batch or not.

To me, astringency comes across as a drying and/or tingling on the tongue - flavorless otherwise. This can happen from too much CO2 as well (carbonic bite).

 

[LovesIPA]

well looks like you got it all figured out since you doubt it's just about everything everyone has suggested... maybe you just suck at making beer?

Yeah I got it all figured out... which is why I keep updating threads, posting new threads, buying/replacing equipment, trying different things, etc.

It's kind of annoying when someone asks for help, but "doubts" it's anything everyone suggests with out actually making the attempt to see if it is that. I think instead of "doubting" it's this and that... try actually making changes and see where the results take you.

I understand what you're saying, I really do. I'm trying to keep more of an open mind.

You describe things as "awful" and "Gross" but we need more description to pin point it.

I know. Unfortunately, I am plain horrible at describing and identifying flavors. I once tasted a butterscotch mint and couldn't pinpoint what the flavor was without looking at the package. It's pretty sad for a brewer.

The sour makes me think infection, but you're convinced it's not that...

No no no... I am not convinced of ANYTHING at this point.

I can't imagine overly sweet would make you want to "spit it out" so again, better description of what you're tasting will help. I don't know what your water additions are, but maybe try brewing with out modifying your water profile.

I have. My tap water is not suitable for brewing light beers. When I first started making all-grain batches I made some excellent stouts and porters but anything light never tasted right, but in a completely different way than what I'm experiencing now.

Swetness could be due to improper mash temps, pitching bad/underpitching yeast, or you may be mashing too high? If you don't have a thermapen, your thermometer could be off?

I have a thermapen. I've checked it in boiling water and an ice bath and it's bang on.

I recently (like in the last 2 weeks) realized I was underpitching because I didn't understand yeast growth rates and I was relying on BeerSmith too much. I think I've educated myself and I'm pretty confident that's not happening anymore. I use a yeast pitch rate calculator that's much better suited for propagating from slants now.

You may not be attenuating properly. Are you doing those numbers? What's your fermentation schedule like? I assume you temp control. Assuming you take notes, what are your OG and FG for some of these bad beers? How long do you let your beer age before you keg?

Attenuation has been right in the range for the yeast strains I usE. US-05 and WLP001 - the two I use most and yes I know they're the same strain - would pretty consistently put me in the 80% ballpark.

For example I brewed a Nelson Sauvin IPA. OG was 1.063, FG was 1.009. That gives me 86% attenuation.

Have these beers improved, got worse, or stayed the same with age?

Stayed the same. I do have two of them sitting in kegs that I plan on hooking back up soon and see if they changed.

Look at this:

http://morebeer.com/content/homebrew-off-flavors

Oh no, now we're back on the infection theory. I've read the off-flavor guide - ironically, that specific one today. I can't really say any of those descriptions fit the bill.

If anything, my beers over-attentuate. Another example: OG 1.055, FG 1.011. Attenuation: 79% with WLP002. I can give a bunch more but my beers almost always finish in the 1.009 to 1.012 range unless it's a stout and I don't think I've had one of those finish over 1.020.

Man, I'd love to get a taste of your beer even if I couldn't help then for no other reason to taste awful homebrew .

PM me your address. I will send you a couple bottles.

First, I'd ask myself, am I just being overly sensitive to my homebrew? Maybe it's not as bad as I'm making it out to be and I'm just being picky. Is this even possible, or is the beer so bad that this cannot be the case?

It's so bad it can't be the case. I try a LOT of beers and this is just nasty. If I ordered it in a bar, I'd ask for something else. I had a few friends over, and with appropriate warnings given, absolutely no one likes them or can even stomach them.

Next, I'd think that if the beer is perfect out of the fermenter and terrible out of the keg, then you know where your problem lies. It's lies somewhere between the "transfer from fermenter to keg" and "dispensing from keg". If you are finding a consistency to all of your bad beers then maybe it's as simple as the CO2 (or CO2 tank). Is it possible for your to swap your CO2 tank out for a different one with fresh CO2?

I'm on my 6th or 7th 5# tank of CO2. I exchange them at a welding shop.

Alternatively, you could bust out your muscles and motivation, and bottle your next batch. See if your problem appears in a bottled batch or not.

I bottled a 12-pack of my most recently kegged batch. I haven't cracked one open yet though.

To me, astringency comes across as a drying and/or tingling on the tongue - flavorless otherwise. This can happen from too much CO2 as well (carbonic bite).

I'm starting to wonder if it's caused by force carbing at 30psi for 24 hours in the keezer. I'm going to try a couple weeks at 10 psi and see if it changes anything.

That theory (to me, anyway) seems to make far more sense than an infection or a water issue.

Thanks for the help, I appreciate it.

 

[stpug]

If anything, my beers over-attentuate. Another example: OG 1.055, FG 1.011. Attenuation: 79% with WLP002. I can give a bunch more but my beers almost always finish in the 1.009 to 1.012 range unless it's a stout and I don't think I've had one of those finish over 1.020.

This caught my eye. I had a run of about 5 or 6 batches mid of last year that were consistently overattenuating - very similar to your number. Initially, I thought "Great! Nicely dry beers" but I was wrong. While they were very much drinkable to the last drop, they came across unbalanced towards the bitter side of things - very much with an astringency characteristic which is where I developed my taste/feel for astringency . A little too much bittering coupled with some tongue drying/tingling astringency made for a so-so beer. It took a little looking at my system to realize what had changed that was causing this side effect. I had to swap MLT coolers due to a crack and the new one didn't provide a great seal around the lid which caused more heat loss during the mash than my previous cooler. Basically, my mash heat was slipping down during the mash and this was leading to an overly fermentable wort than I had planned. The airtight-ness of my MLT was easily checked by simply sealing up the empty cooler and blowing in the open valve when I quickly noticed that the air was leaking out through the lid seal. Since then I've made adjustments to keep an airtight MLT and refreshing my mash temp at midway using a small amount of boiling water (usually about 1 quart). The "sealant" for the MLT is just a little syran/plastic wrap draped over the MLT opening and then I screw the lid down over that using it as a gasket of sorts. Since then (about 15 batches or so) my FGs have been much closer to my expectations (and BeerSmiths expectations) AND the beers have improved SIGNIFICANTLY.

Now, I'm not saying that this is what's causing your awful beers. Rather, I'm giving a firsthand experience of how a simple thing like slipping mash temps CAN have a noticeable impact on final beer quality.

One final note would be that in order to get a realistic finished mash temperature then you need to make sure to stir it up really well (mix the sides with the centers and the bottoms with the tops) and then get a temperature of your mash. Previously I would simply stick my thermometer in the center of my finished mash and see a 1-2 degree drop - turns out when it was all stirred up then it was closer to a 7-8 degree drop.

Keep us posted on your future batches. I might take you up on that offer to try your beers too

 

[insanim8er]

ok... Have others had your beer and given you notes? Since you have issues with explaining flavors, maybe notes from others will help. What have others said? It's really difficult to get an idea when it's "Sweet, but not like sugar sweet." I mean you could be experiencing a lot of easters. That can come across as "sweet" I guess since it's fruity tasting. But generally sweet beer is due to improper attenuation, and you're saying that you're fermenting out on target. Do you add table sugar to any of your beers? Are you getting a cider flavor? That's generally due to too much sugar - I believe over a LB per 5 gallons.

You have a thermapen, so we know your temps are right, so you're not mashing high...

The sour is what I don't understand.... Maybe explain that better. IF it's sour, then I'm thinking infection. But if you have a hard time explaining flavors, maybe it's not sour?

What style of beers have they been? Give a list of the ones that have tasted good vs the ones that are coming out bad. Also, have you brewed the same beer twice and have one bad and one come out good?

What kind of brew pot do you use? Is it SS or aluminum?

How do you ferment? What do you ferment in and how do you set your temps? Are you oxygenating your beers well?

Another thing - Since your water is not good for light beers, have you tried using bottled water for a batch?

FWIW - I hardly doubt it's the CO2 or the 30psi. I've done it with no ill affects. Also over carbonated beer doesn't make you want to spit it out. How do you dispense your beer? And do you tear your corny kegs down and clean them?

 

[LovesIPA]

ok... Have others had your beer and given you notes? Since you have issues with explaining flavors, maybe notes from others will help. What have others said? It's really difficult to get an idea when it's "Sweet, but not like sugar sweet." I mean you could be experiencing a lot of easters. That can come across as "sweet" I guess since it's fruity tasting. But generally sweet beer is due to improper attenuation, and you're saying that you're fermenting out on target. Do you add table sugar to any of your beers? Are you getting a cider flavor? That's generally due to too much sugar - I believe over a LB per 5 gallons.

A few weeks ago, I took a couple bottles that I'd filled from the tap to a LHBS/brewpub run by an experienced brewer. Yesterday, I also took a bottle of the distilled water batch to a LHBS. I don't really know where else to take beers to get them tasted by "experienced" people.

The problem is by the time they get there, they're warm, and the flavor isn't as pronounced. I can still pick up on it because it just stands out to me from tasting it in so many batches. Literally every person who tastes it says that they can't find a problem.

I was lucky enough to have a group of guys walk in the LHBS yesterday and taste the beer in addition to the employee. The LHBS employee's two critiques were that 1) the beer seemed a little dry. And he was right. The beer finished at 1.009. So I think he probably has a pretty decent palate. 2) It seemed overly bitter, which I agree with as well. I think it's because the recipe called for both FWH hops and a 60 minute addition. There is a pronounced bitterness. I think that he was confusing the off-flavor aroma with the hop aroma that was present. Because the beer was warm, a lot of the hop aroma had returned. I asked him to chill the beer for 20 minutes or so and the hop aroma faded somewhat and the off-flavor/aroma was still present but he seemed to think it was the hops he was smelling and tasting.

I've had all-Mosaic IPAs before and they just don't have that off-flavor.

One of the random walk-ins told me that for some reason he is VERY sensitive to bacterial infections in beer and wine. He claimed that if he drinks anything that's soured he instantly gets a severe headache and this didn't happen when he tasted it. I know, super scientific proof there - but take it for what it's worth.

I don't use table sugar in beers. I wouldn't call the flavor cidery.

The sour is what I don't understand.... Maybe explain that better. IF it's sour, then I'm thinking infection. But if you have a hard time explaining flavors, maybe it's not sour?

I am completely open to the idea that my flavor description is way off. Can I just send you a bottle? It would eliminate a lot of the guessing.

What style of beers have they been? Give a list of the ones that have tasted good vs the ones that are coming out bad. Also, have you brewed the same beer twice and have one bad and one come out good?

Good questions.

Let me give you a run-down of what I've brewed, what was good and what was bad. Good thing I keep detailed records.

8/22 - Extracurricular hoptivity - got infected during dry-hopping. You could see the white pellicle spreading out from around the stainless mesh balls I used to dry hop it. I tried to rack from underneath but no luck. This is why I was so sure this is an infection problem. Because the beers all taste like that batch. RO w/salts.

8/25 - Chocolate porter - Excellent. One of the top 5 I've brewed. Untreated tap water.

9/2 - Mosaic IPA - Off-flavor. RO w/salts.

9/11 - Centennial Blonde - came out fine. RO w/salts.

9/15 - Jagged Edge IPA - Got infected during dry-hopping. This is the batch where I boiled the sewn-together paint strainer bag. Same thing - you could see the white pellicle spreading out from the bag floating on the surface. Since I stopped dry-hopping in the same room where I store and weigh grains, no more dry-hopping issues. RO w/salts.

9/19 - wheat beer. My own recipe. Came out with the off-flavor. RO w/salts.

9/24 - Chinook IPA. Off-flavor. RO w/salts.

10/6 - OktoberFAST - Off-flavor. RO w/salts.

10/11 - Chocolate Porter - excellent again. RO w/salts.

10/21 - Amber ale. Excellent. This is about when my CO2 regulator went south and I had to replace it. It would slowly creep up the pressure over the course of a day or two. I'd open the keezer and it would be at 30 or 40 psi. I'd bleed it off, re-set the regulator, and the same thing would happen. So this batch actually got very over-carbonated. This is what I'm brewing today. RO w/salts.

10/25 - Extra Stout. Excellent. RO w/salts.

11/3 - Nelson Sauvin IPA - off-flavor. RO w/salts.

11/12 - common Room ESB - off-flavor. RO w/salts.

12/5 - Amber Ale (slight substitutions) - Good but not great. No off-flavor in this one. RO w/salts.

12/8 - Centennial blonde. Excellent. RO w/salts.

12/24 - Nelson Sauvin IPA - off-flavor. RO w/salts.

1/4 - Dry-hopped American Ale - off-flavor. RO w/salts.

1/8 - Chocolate porter - this was a weird one. It didn't taste at all like the two previous batches. It had a weird flavor to it. It wasn't bad but it wasn't great. I think, although I'm not certain, that this had the off-flavor but the roasted grains interfered with it and changed it. Untreated tap water.

1/18 - Amber ale. Off-flavor. This is one of the ones where I brewed essentially the same batch, same water, same salts, and it came out great twice, and had the off-flavor the third time. This is one reason I was so reluctant to accept that it was a water issue. RO w/salts.

1/14 - Tangerine Ale. This is the partially bottled batch. Has the off-flavor in the keg in less than 24 hours. RO w/salts.

1/25 - Bell's two hearted clone. Off-flavor. RO w/salts.

1/31 - Fat Sam. Off-flavor. RO w/salts.

2/17 - Distilled water Mosaic IPA - off flavor. Distilled water w/salts.

2/20 - Amarillo Red. My own recipe. Maris Otter, munich, crystal 40 and 4 oz of roasted barley and lots of amarillo hops. Dry-hopped it 3 days ago. RO w/salts.

2/26 - One gallon of a SMaSH Maris/Simcoe. Dry-hopped it 3 days ago. RO w/salts.

You wanna know why I'm frustrated? lol

What kind of brew pot do you use? Is it SS or aluminum?

Pretty high quality stainless pot.

How do you ferment? What do you ferment in and how do you set your temps? Are you oxygenating your beers well?

I don't ferment, the yeast do. Chest freezer + STC-1000 in the warmer weather, laundry room next to the garage in the cooler weather. It says in the low 60's in there and the temp sticker on the side of the fermenter never gets above 65. I use a wine aerator to aerate. I fashioned a hanger for it that hangs off the inside rim of the bucket. Then I slowly drain the wort through it into the bucket. It takes about 20 minutes but that wort is well-aerated when I'm done.

Another thing - Since your water is not good for light beers, have you tried using bottled water for a batch?

Yes, the amarillo red batch. I should have results on that batch within a week. I know I should have tried it earlier, but I was just getting such inconsistent results, especially with the Amber Ale recipe - good, good, awful - it just seemed so incredibly unlikely to be water.

FWIW - I hardly doubt it's the CO2 or the 30psi. I've done it with no ill affects. Also over carbonated beer doesn't make you want to spit it out. How do you dispense your beer? And do you tear your corny kegs down and clean them?

Fug, that was my leading theory.

Kegs are completely disassembled, cleaned with PBW, rinsed well, soaked in star-san, re-assembled wet, purged with CO2 and filled all at the same time.

 

[LovesIPA]

The other thread got locked, which is fine because it was unwieldy and people were jumping in at the end asking questions that had already been asked and answered repeatedly.

Can we please keep the following rule in mind: If you don't have anything constructive, helpful, or positive to add to the thread, please don't post. I'd like to keep this focused on fixing the problem. Thank you.

 

[Facinerous]

From what I have seen it looks like you have a wealth of options to try between the two threads.

The unfortunate thing about the way these forums work is you can get tons of responses in a short period of time, but beer takes a while to get a product from start to finish.

At this point I would just take what you can from the two threads and itemize potential fixes as you see fit. Maybe quickest and most likely to longest and least likely. Hopefully a few more batches, and a method of isolating the problem will get you back in fantastic beer soon.

Either way. Good luck duder. I would like to hear from you when you find the problem.

 

[opiate82]

Have you tried skipping the kegging and bottling a batch yet?

 

[insanim8er]

This is all over the board, but the one thing I'm seeing that seems to be consistent.... Your salts.

You're adding salts to everything including the distilled water. You did some untreated tap water on the stouts, and you're having good luck with your stouts when adding salts, but that's probably because their flavor profile is strong enough to mask any off flavors you're detecting... Or your water profile is fine for that style.

I would seriously consider starting your trouble shooting by eliminating all salt additions and using straight distilled water for a batch. Choose one you had bad luck with before, but I would recommend not dry hopping for this batch.

I know you've done a centennial that came out good and another that didn't, but there could've been others factors. I would start with the one consistent thing that I'm seeing in the process, and that is the addition of salts.

 

[LovesIPA]

I would seriously consider starting your trouble shooting by eliminating all salt additions and using straight distilled water for a batch.

Brewing with only distilled water is not a good idea. You only need to do a little research to find out why.

For starters, read this: http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-2.html

Martin Brungard and ajdelange have both said my water profile is fine: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/reasonable-water-profile-459666/

Mr Hadack (in the other thread, right before it was locked) also said it was fine.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you that my salts are causing the problem.

 

[LovesIPA]

Have you tried skipping the kegging and bottling a batch yet?

Yes. I haven't tasted it yet though. I bottled it three days ago. I'm tempted to try one now, knowing it would be flat, but I don't know if it would be worthwhile yet.

 

[LandoLincoln]

I'd suspect two things:

1) Carbolic acid taste caused by over-carbonation. This bad taste can go away if the beer is allowed to warm up and is degassed. I'd try the "set it and forget it" method of carbing up the beer. Keg the beer, set it to serving pressure and leave it alone for two weeks. I've had carbolic acid in some of my beers and yes, it did make the beers undrinkable until the beer was sufficiently degassed.

2) You really do need to spend some money on a decent pH meter so you can see if your pH is seriously out of whack at any time during the mash or sparging process. You're flying blind in this respect. Fly sparging with bad pH makes problems even worse. Maybe try batch sparging to see if the problem is lessened or eliminated.

Doing a FWH addition and a 60-minute addition is not a good idea. But I think you know that by now.

 

[insanim8er]

Brewing with only distilled water is not a good idea. You only need to do a little research to find out why.

For starters, read this: http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-2.html

Martin Brungard and ajdelange have both said my water profile is fine: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/reasonable-water-profile-459666/

Mr Hadack (in the other thread, right before it was locked) also said it was fine.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you that my salts are causing the problem.

And with this, I'm done...

You're trouble shooting here. You're not trying to make a gold medal beer. Using water that tastes good will result in good beer. If you use distilled water with NO salt addition, you will at least determine if there is any off flavor. You can use your tap water, but then it goes back to water quality if there are issues.

Good luck in your ever lasting search. I mean you're apparently flawless in your execution and already have your opinions with out results. The worst is you seem to decline any options given that don't seem to be in your favor. I suggest in the future, when you have two forums full of advice, you actually try things before respectfully declining because someone else said something... You could be off in your measurements or something, but you'll never know because you seemingly think your process is optimal when your results apparently differ.

So far we've determined:

It's not your process or temps
It's not your fermentation
It's not your water
It's not an infection
It's not your equipment

Only thing left is you suck at making beer... Good luck with this.

 

[LovesIPA]

I'd suspect two things:

1) Carbolic acid taste caused by over-carbonation. This bad taste can go away if the beer is allowed to warm up and is degassed. I'd try the "set it and forget it" method of carbing up the beer. Keg the beer, set it to serving pressure and leave it alone for two weeks. I've had carbolic acid in some of my beers and yes, it did make the beers undrinkable until the beer was sufficiently degassed.

I suspect this as well, and I'm going to do this with the next batch I keg.

2) You really do need to spend some money on a decent pH meter so you can see if your pH is seriously out of whack at any time during the mash or sparging process. You're flying blind in this respect. Fly sparging with bad pH makes problems even worse. Maybe try batch sparging to see if the problem is lessened or eliminated.

I do need to get a pH meter. It's on my list, I just haven't spent the coin on it yet.

Why would batch sparging vs. fly sparging make a difference?

Doing a FWH addition and a 60-minute addition is not a good idea. But I think you know that by now.

Yup. I got pretty bad advice from that guy.

 

[LovesIPA]

I widened the gap on my mill today for brew day. I hit 83% efficiency which is perfect IMO.

I still don't have a feeler gauge - I used a dime. Apparently it worked perfectly.

 

[LandoLincoln]

Why would batch sparging vs. fly sparging make a difference?

I've read that fly spargers should be monitoring their pH in regards to sparging whereas batch spargers don't have to worry about it. You'll have to read up on why this is. I don't remember. All I do know is I batch sparge so I don't worry about it.