Easy kettle caramel experiment

[aangel]

I'll be making a scotch ale in a few days. Part of the process involves taking some of the sweet wort and boiling it down until it's almost dry and turns to malt caramel, then returning that to the batch.

...I would really prefer not to do that. Caramelizing sugars is a pain in the ass, and doing it predictably and reliably so as to get your desired caramelization without burning is pretty difficult.

So I thought to myself...if caramelization temperature of sugar is about 350 degrees fahrenheit, why not just throw DME into the oven at 350 and wait?

Stay tuned. I've got a stainless steel pot with a cup of sugar, wrapped in tin-foil to avoid local hot-spots, in the oven at about 325 (my oven's temperature isn't all that reliable). I'll be checking on it every now and then.

 

[55x11]

I'll be making a scotch ale in a few days. Part of the process involves taking some of the sweet wort and boiling it down until it's almost dry and turns to malt caramel, then returning that to the batch.

...I would really prefer not to do that. Caramelizing sugars is a pain in the ass, and doing it predictably and reliably so as to get your desired caramelization without burning is pretty difficult.

So I thought to myself...if caramelization temperature of sugar is about 350 degrees fahrenheit, why not just throw DME into the oven at 350 and wait?

Stay tuned. I've got a stainless steel pot with a cup of sugar, wrapped in tin-foil to avoid local hot-spots, in the oven at about 325 (my oven's temperature isn't all that reliable). I'll be checking on it every now and then.

interesting idea, I would have still done a batch with traditional boiling down of wort to see if there is any perceived taste difference between otherwise identical batches of wort with different caramelization process. In any case, let us know how it turns out!

 

[aangel]

I got complacent and didn't time it precisely, but: I just took the pot out, and lo and behold I have liquid, dark brown caramel with no scorching on the pot. I tried pouring some into a glass of water and confirmed it's hard crack and browned enough to be considered caramel. Dark amber color.

My oven immersion thermometer, very sadly, died on me a few days ago so I can't measure/control the temperature of the sugar precisely, but: I got caramel, with no scorching, after an hour. Once I manage to clean the pot out I'm going to try again, this time at a lower temperature for a longer time. Maybe 300 for 2 hours.

Edit: trying with powdered lactose this time, since I'm looking to make a double-double coffee stout (coffee plus coffee malt plus lactose plus lactose caramel for sweetness). about 1/3 of a cup of lactose powder, at 300, checking every half hour.

Bottom line: it works and is easier than doing it stove-top. Wrap a pot in tin foil and stick 'er in the oven for perfectly done caramel.

 

[aangel]

interesting idea, I would have still done a batch with traditional boiling down of wort to see if there is any perceived taste difference between otherwise identical batches of wort with different caramelization process. In any case, let us know how it turns out!

Strictly speaking, caramelizing DME vs wet wort is...well, exactly the same. You won't get much caramelization reactions until the water is almost entirely gone from the wort, since that happens in the 300 degree range. So we're really comparing the "wet" caramel process vs the "dry" process - end result is the same.

Granted it's only the same since we're caramelizing DME vs a wort made entirely of pale malt. For apples to apples with an amber you'd need to use amber DME, etc.

 

[Kharnynb]

bookmarking this thread.

 

[RedlegEd]

I got complacent and didn't time it precisely, but: I just took the pot out, and lo and behold I have liquid, dark brown caramel with no scorching on the pot. I tried pouring some into a glass of water and confirmed it's hard crack and browned enough to be considered caramel. Dark amber color.

My oven immersion thermometer, very sadly, died on me a few days ago so I can't measure/control the temperature of the sugar precisely, but: I got caramel, with no scorching, after an hour. Once I manage to clean the pot out I'm going to try again, this time at a lower temperature for a longer time. Maybe 300 for 2 hours.

Edit: trying with powdered lactose this time, since I'm looking to make a double-double coffee stout (coffee plus coffee malt plus lactose plus lactose caramel for sweetness). about 1/3 of a cup of lactose powder, at 300, checking every half hour.

Bottom line: it works and is easier than doing it stove-top. Wrap a pot in tin foil and stick 'er in the oven for perfectly done caramel.

Very cool! What does it taste like? Ed

 

[aangel]

Very cool! What does it taste like? Ed

The plain white sugar tasted like...well, plain caramelized sugar. I personally don't find it as interesting as the candi syrups with all their more varied mailard reaction products. I know there's an awesome guide to making belgian candi syrups here somewhere on HBT with pics and exact recipes. I can't see why you couldn't just use his recipes and my method of oven + tinfoil to make the process as easy as possible.

I just checked the lactose at the 30 minute @ 300f mark - still powder. if it's still powder at the 60 min mark I'm gonna bump my oven thermostat to 325 and wait another hour.

I'm gonna whip up equal batches of sugar, DME, and lactose caramel - albeit small ones - at the same temperatures times & amount of water dilution to compare 'em. That'll come soon but probably not today.

 

[55x11]

Strictly speaking, caramelizing DME vs wet wort is...well, exactly the same. You won't get much caramelization reactions until the water is almost entirely gone from the wort, since that happens in the 300 degree range. So we're really comparing the "wet" caramel process vs the "dry" process - end result is the same.

Granted it's only the same since we're caramelizing DME vs a wort made entirely of pale malt. For apples to apples with an amber you'd need to use amber DME, etc.

generally agree, but with from cooking we all know temperature x time makes a big difference. You are baking/roasting Dry Extract vs. sauteeing/reducing condensed liquid wort. Regardless, I wouldn't be surprised if results are indistinguishable. I want to try it myself. Kudos for the excellent idea!

 

[RedlegEd]

The plain white sugar tasted like...well, plain caramelized sugar. I personally don't find it as interesting as the candi syrups with all their more varied mailard reaction products. I know there's an awesome guide to making belgian candi syrups here somewhere on HBT with pics and exact recipes. I can't see why you couldn't just use his recipes and my method of oven + tinfoil to make the process as easy as possible.

I'm familiar with that thread as I've already made my own candi syrup for KingBrianI's Caramel Amber Ale (I used recipe #5.)

I'm gonna whip up equal batches of sugar, DME, and lactose caramel - albeit small ones - at the same temperatures times & amount of water dilution to compare 'em. That'll come soon but probably not today.

I'm really interested in your results as well. Did you put the sugar in the oven totally dry, or did you dilute slightly with water to liquify before hand? Ed

 

[aangel]

I've not used water in these tests. The tablespoon of water trick is something to make it easier for stove-top caramel making as the heat isn't even in that situation.

Interesting enough, with the lactose powder, 60 min at 300 wasn't enough, another 45 at 325 only succeeded in slightly toasting the powder without changing consistency. I've upped it to 350 for an hour. I'm similarly expecting DME to behave uniquely.

 

[RedlegEd]

I've not used water in these tests. The tablespoon of water trick is something to make it easier for stove-top caramel making as the heat isn't even in that situation.

Interesting enough, with the lactose powder, 60 min at 300 wasn't enough, another 45 at 325 only succeeded in slightly toasting the powder without changing consistency. I've upped it to 350 for an hour. I'm similarly expecting DME to behave uniquely.

You may have to go higher than that....according to Pubchem, the melting point of Lactose is 433°F (201-202°C). Ed

 

[JohnSand]

Thanks for posting.
I might try it with LME.

 

[aangel]

Soo...yeah...this did NOT work out well with DME. I put 2 ounces of DME into a pot and into the oven at 350...This is 40 minutes later.

DME did NOT react like sugar. So, this method seems to work for table sugar, and lactose (but does not liquify) - but is a definite no go for DME.

 

[Weezy]

Well, interesting test. Thanks for sharing. I was hoping for better results. I imagine that the process of boiling down some wort was an interpretation of the long boils (hours) that some breweries were doing and the assumption that some of the wort at the bottom of the pot was being modified and creating different flavors from cooking the wort at a much higher temp. True carmelization is a bit of abstraction I'd think. I've done it a pretty simple way. I pulled off about a third of the first runnings into another pot and boiled that down on high heat on the stove top while I sparged, boiled, hopped the rest as normal. Then just added the boiled down stuff back in when ready to cool. It cooked down to less than half it's original volume.

 

[aangel]

Well, interesting test. Thanks for sharing. I was hoping for better results. I imagine that the process of boiling down some wort was an interpretation of the long boils (hours) that some breweries were doing and the assumption that some of the wort at the bottom of the pot was being modified and creating different flavors from cooking the wort at a much higher temp. True carmelization is a bit of abstraction I'd think. I've done it a pretty simple way. I pulled off about a third of the first runnings into another pot and boiled that down on high heat on the stove top while I sparged, boiled, hopped the rest as normal. Then just added the boiled down stuff back in when ready to cool. It cooked down to less than half it's original volume.

I did something sort of to that effect just now. Took two quarts of mashout liquor out of my 2.75gal batch, boiled it until it became a thick treacle and was just hinting at scorching, rehydrated it back to 2 quarts, tasted, and threw it back into the boil. My wife & I both perceived the rehydrated, "caramelized" liquor as more like caramel and less bready/sugary.

Went with OG 1.75, IBU 19, 82.5% pale malt, 5% melanoidin, 1% roasted barley, 0.5% oak smoked wheat, 7% crystal 30 & 3% crystal 120. Throwing it on a big US-05 starter (don't have anything more appropriate so we thought neutral yeast would be best).

 

[JohnSand]

That DME pic is crazy.
I have accidentally caramelized LME while making extract batches. One that was intended to be an APA ended up more of an Amber, but still good.