Dry hopping leads to terrible flavour

[O.L.D.B.B.A]

Hi folks, thanks in advance. So...been making split batch sours using lactobacillus. I let them get very sour then pitch us05. I split the batch up in secondary and age on fruits or dry hop inside growlers. When the beer goes into secondary it tastes good, very sour but very pleasant. Every single one that I dry hop to tastes like total **** a week later. If I add fruit (Burban and smoked blackberries) the beer turns out great. If I dry hop, the beer has a very harsh and extremely unpleasant acidity. I am carefull about O2 and always purge with CO2 with a bottling wand. No oxidation in any fruited ones.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Which hop varieties have you used? Have you tried different hop varieties for the dry hopping? Have you tried different timings for the dry hopping? Can you elaborate on the tastes you're getting?

Usually hop flavor and sour don't play well together, so it takes an apt hand to find a good balance.

 

[O.L.D.B.B.A]

Which hop varieties have you used? Have you tried different hop varieties for the dry hopping? Have you tried different timings for the dry hopping? Can you elaborate on the tastes you're getting?

Usually hop flavor and sour don't play well together, so it takes an apt hand to find a good balance.

Most Recently Calypso, Sabro, and Citra. All to the same effect...beer does not taste like hops at all...tastes more like vinegar. I don't believe it is bug related as the beer tastes absolutely wonderful and fruited growlers are fantastic. As soon as I dry hop...very bad flavour. The presence of some highly undesirable acid.

 

[cactusgarrett]

It's possible you're getting acetobacter, and once you start opening it up for hopping the oxygen is promoting the production of the vinegar flavor. Have you let the vinegar-y beers sit a while? Sometimes off flavors can clear up with time and yield surprisingly amazing beers in the end.

 

[O.L.D.B.B.A]

I do have some bottles sitting that I don't expect to drink as they were nasty at bottling time. Should I leave them at room temp for 6 months? A year? Why would I get absolutely zero off flavour with the act same beer handled exactly same but no hops? Will oxidation cause this without aceto present? I have never had success with a dry hopped sour and it's driving me mad. I've made some delicious fruited sours with no off flavours but dry hopping ruins the beer.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Sounds like one potential difference between the two could be the fruit containing sugar, thus kicking off a secondary fermentation. It's possible this additional activity is negating or cleaning up the vinegar flavor production. One thing you can try to test this out is to add a bit of sugar at the same time as your dry hop charge. I typically do this with all my beers that I dry hop in order to (attempt to) counteract the oxygen exposure. Another way to approach this aspect is to dry hop earlier in (during) fermentation, so the continued fermentation cleans up potential oxygen ingress.

 

[O.L.D.B.B.A]

Sounds like one potential difference between the two could be the fruit containing sugar, thus kicking off a secondary fermentation. It's possible this additional activity is negating or cleaning up the vinegar flavor production. One thing you can try to test this out is to add a bit of sugar at the same time as your dry hop charge. I typically do this with all my beers that I dry hop in order to (attempt to) counteract the oxygen exposure. Another way to approach this aspect is to dry hop earlier in (during) fermentation, so the continued fermentation cleans up potential oxygen ingress.

Yes, that makes sense. So even with CO2 purging of the growler...still enough 02 to ruin the beer if no secondary fermentation. I will be adding sugar along with hops or dry hopping at active fermentation from now on. If/when I taste sweet dry hopped sour success I will report back. Thanks for your help.

 

[cactusgarrett]

still enough 02 to ruin the beer if no secondary fermentation.

I'm not suggesting it's definitive, it's just my knee-jerk reaction of the first thing to try. If active fermentation is going, there's no need to add sugar. For your dry hopping process, just make sure to try and minimize opening of the vessel - open enough to toss in the hops and close it back up.

Also, you keep mentioning growlers, so I'm a little unclear as to your process. How are you utilizing growlers in this process? You said you "age on fruit and dry hop in growlers." Are you fermenting in a larger bulk vessel, like a bucket/carboy, then transferring to growlers? Are you then bottling after that? Are you putting air locks on the growlers during aging?

 

[O.L.D.B.B.A]

Yes, I split a large batch up that soured with lacto and fermented with us05. Then I split between growlers and secondary differently, then bottle. Yes I use airlocks and am very careful with sanitation

 

[goodolarchie]

This was sacch and lacto only, not Brettanomyces?

I ask because not only can acetobacter be an issue but brett will produce acetic acid when given oxygen exposure, even in small amounts over time, as well as awful ethyl acetate (like nail polish remover). I dry hop aged sours with a heated solution that contains a tablespoon of corn sugar and maltodextrine.

And as for the beer, you might get better results just leaving the beer on the hops for a few days instead of a week. Citrusy / zesty varietals pair best in my experience.

 

[O.L.D.B.B.A]

This was sacch and lacto only, not Brettanomyces?

I ask because not only can acetobacter be an issue but brett will produce acetic acid when given oxygen exposure, even in small amounts over time, as well as awful ethyl acetate (like nail polish remover). I dry hop aged sours with a heated solution that contains a tablespoon of corn sugar and maltodextrine.

And as for the beer, you might get better results just leaving the beer on the hops for a few days instead of a week. Citrusy / zesty varietals pair best in my experience.

It was UsO5 and lacto blend only. Have plans to use Brett but have not crossed that line just yet. I have not had this happen to any non soured beer that has been dry hopped in the same fashion, same equipment. Is it possible the acetobactor is in the lacto culture? It is a commercial culture and supposedly pure. It is only when I dry hop a lacto soured beer, and it is every one of them. I have had luck with Philly sour and lupulin pitched together into the wort, but not sour enough or hoppy enough for me. Thank you for the help

 

[goodolarchie]

It was UsO5 and lacto blend only. Have plans to use Brett but have not crossed that line just yet. I have not had this happen to any non soured beer that has been dry hopped in the same fashion, same equipment. Is it possible the acetobactor is in the lacto culture? It is a commercial culture and supposedly pure. It is only when I dry hop a lacto soured beer, and it is every one of them. I have had luck with Philly sour and lupulin pitched together into the wort, but not sour enough or hoppy enough for me. Thank you for the help

Acetobacter is an "obligate aerobe" - so it not only tolerates oxygen, but it requires it to convert ethanol to acetic acid. To that extent, any active fermentation will fill the headspace with CO2 pretty quick, even after a dry hop addition. If it's not active, but you purged the headspace as well, I wouldn't attribute this to acetobacter, unless you have a real leak. You should test for this I suppose. I see acetobacter get nasty if I have something aging, and an airlock dried out that I didn't notice for a few days or a week, for example. That turns to vinegar.

So now we go back to the drawing board. How did you reach the conclusion that the acidity is what's unpleasant, not the harshness or astringency of the hop addition itself? Do you have a pH meter, are you seeing it drop after the dry hop? What is the pH pre and post dry hop addition? It would be really weird to have acetic acid production by a mere dry hop addition where the oxygen has been accounted for. That said, this is exactly why I pressure can some wort on brew day, so I can add a bit to my sours every time I sample or mess with them, kicking up fermentation again helps guard against oxygen spoilage.

 

[Dgallo]

This is a strange occurrence, I dryhop all my sours and mix fermentation and don’t get any off character, granted it taste nothing like it does when I dryhop an ipa.

When are you dryhoping? Are these kettle sours or copitched? (If you answered these previously I’m sorry, I am at work and only skim read the other posts)

 

[O.L.D.B.B.A]

No problem, I am desperate to figure this out and appreciate the help. I can not say with certainty that my airlocks never get below the appropriate level. I will pay more attention to this in the future. I do have a PH meter but I don't use it to measure the PH of these. I know I want them as sour as I can get them.

1. I pitch a good lacto starter into the chilled (90 f)wort. I purge with a bottling wand and Co2. Airlock it and leave it a few days (commercial culture Brevis and Plantarum)

2. I Sample it a few days later (3-4), without fail it is extremely tart and highly delicious. zero detectable off flavour for me.

3. I pitch uso5 and let it ferment for 2 weeks.

4. This is when I split the batch into growlers and add all kinds of concoctions. Kiwis, Toasted Coco-nut, Smoked Blackberrys and burban, Strawberry Kiwi, Lime and tomato juice...then I purge with bottling wand and CO2.... I always dry hop one, my brother is a hop distributor and I have more hops than I know what to do with, and I truly love a well made dry hopped sour as potentially my all time favourite style.

5. One week later, they all taste like I expected except the dry hopped one. Its ruined and tastes like...I dunno fermented ognions and chemicals or something, definetly a very disgusting flavour profile. My palate is very poor but I would say definitly a little vinegar character, maybe some nail polish...absolutely no hop flavour at all, and 100% and I mean completely and utterly undrinkable, I wouldn't be able to get through a 1Oz shot of it.

6. bottle...wait...drink...repeat. anyways the majority of these turn out to be exactly what I expected considering how experimental they are, they taste like the ingredients. (any thing from drinkable to unforgettable)

 

[O.L.D.B.B.A]

Acetobacter is an "obligate aerobe" - so it not only tolerates oxygen, but it requires it to convert ethanol to acetic acid. To that extent, any active fermentation will fill the headspace with CO2 pretty quick, even after a dry hop addition. If it's not active, but you purged the headspace as well, I wouldn't attribute this to acetobacter, unless you have a real leak. You should test for this I suppose. I see acetobacter get nasty if I have something aging, and an airlock dried out that I didn't notice for a few days or a week, for example. That turns to vinegar.

So now we go back to the drawing board. How did you reach the conclusion that the acidity is what's unpleasant, not the harshness or astringency of the hop addition itself? Do you have a pH meter, are you seeing it drop after the dry hop? What is the pH pre and post dry hop addition? It would be really weird to have acetic acid production by a mere dry hop addition where the oxygen has been accounted for. That said, this is exactly why I pressure can some wort on brew day, so I can add a bit to my sours every time I sample or mess with them, kicking up fermentation again helps guard against oxygen spoilage.

My palate is definetly not the best...its very hard to describe. I know for sure its not hop astringency, I am familiar with that due to some abusive dry hopping experiments.....my best approximation is like putting some vinegar and into a very plain soured beer, and one quick squirt of break cleaner. Not a lot of flavour but everything about it is very unpleasant in my mouth. Makes me feel like I need to spit out whatever this is right now.

 

[Dgallo]

So nail Polish off flavor is caused by ethyl acetate. It a yeast by products from improper ester production, typically because of hot fermentation’s but doesn’t always have to be the reason. While dryhoping did it get pretty warm?

The other flavor you can’t fully describe could be the interplay of hopburn and lactic acid/low ph. If you got some hopcreep that did cause a slight refermention, it’s very possible you got hopburn. When this happens in a low ph beer with lactic acid, to me it comes off kinda like if you chewed a Tylenol. Is that kinda a way to describe the flavor?

 

[O.L.D.B.B.A]

So nail Polish off flavor is caused by ethyl acetate. It a yeast by products from improper ester production, typically because of hot fermentation’s but doesn’t always have to be the reason. While dryhoping did it get pretty warm?

The other flavor you can’t fully describe could be the interplay of hopburn and lactic acid/low ph. If you got some hopcreep that did cause a slight refermention, it’s very possible you got hopburn. When this happens in a low ph beer with lactic acid, to me it comes off kinda like if you chewed a Tylenol. Is that kinda a way to describe the flavor?

The temperature was rock steady at 19.5 degrees Celscius. I have experienced hop burn but never in combination with such a low PH so thats an interesting angle...I do have a pretty heavy hand when it comes to adding hops into my beer. The latest was 1 oz of calypso into a growler. I figured if it was hopburn I would recognize it as I have experienced this many times before, but never in combination with such a low PH.
Well I guess I better go chew a couple tylenol.
Thank You again for the help guys.

 

[O.L.D.B.B.A]

So nail Polish off flavor is caused by ethyl acetate. It a yeast by products from improper ester production, typically because of hot fermentation’s but doesn’t always have to be the reason. While dryhoping did it get pretty warm?

The other flavor you can’t fully describe could be the interplay of hopburn and lactic acid/low ph. If you got some hopcreep that did cause a slight refermention, it’s very possible you got hopburn. When this happens in a low ph beer with lactic acid, to me it comes off kinda like if you chewed a Tylenol. Is that kinda a way to describe the flavor?

The verdict is yes, the unpleasant mouthfeel is quite similar to chewing a tylonol. I let a couple bottles condition for a couple months and they taste awfull. I tried to pickle some red onions in some of this stuff, equally terrible and taste even more like tylonol. Since this batch I have not dry hopped any lacto fermented wort and instead only add fruit to my sours. I have fermented a couple batches with philly wildbrew sour yeast and had luck adding ( a small amount of) dry hops to these during active fermentation but I find these philly sours have a very one dimensional acidity that leaves me dissapointed. Have not given up on dry hopping kettle sours and ultimately I need to brew a sour Hazy IPA, but obviously need to work my way up to that and work out the kinks.

 

[Wicked_ferment]

I dry hop almost everything. Including sours.

I dry hopped a Gose with Huell Melon recently and it ended up great. I also drop hopped a Berliner Weisse with Citra and Mosaic and it was one of my favorite brews.

I'm always really careful when I put hops in though, I lower in the hops REALLY slow to avoid oxygen, and remove after week. For a bit it will have a hop bite, but that goes away pretty quick once the hops are gone.

Note. All my sours are kettle soured, and the bacteria is all dead when hops go in.

 

[O.L.D.B.B.A]

I dry hop almost everything. Including sours.

I dry hopped a Gose with Huell Melon recently and it ended up great. I also drop hopped a Berliner Weisse with Citra and Mosaic and it was one of my favorite brews.

I'm always really careful when I put hops in though, I lower in the hops REALLY slow to avoid oxygen, and remove after week. For a bit it will have a hop bite, but that goes away pretty quick once the hops are gone.

Note. All my sours are kettle soured, and the bacteria is all dead when hops go in.

This is very frustrating lol. I do love dry hopped sours and so far, I have only had luck with philly sour yeast which I am not super pleased with. I have dry hopped plenty of beer and brewed several very delicious hazy IPAs, DIPAs, Session IPAs with great success but every time I dry hop a sour it turns into awfull swill. I don't really believe it is due to hop burn as it tastes nothing like hops and it gets worse with time in the bottle. It tastes kinda like someone crushed up some tylenol into some vinegar. Its horrible. I think it has to be infection with Acetic acid bacteria and oxygen exposure during dry hopping. Problem with that theory is that it does not affect any of my non soured beers brewed with the same equipment and same process....it's driving me a little crazy to be honest. I have not tried again since the last awfull batch but have plans to try again soon, using the kettle sour method and going for a Sour DIPA.