Dough In- Devices and techniques?

[Beardless]

To the all grain brewers out there doing traditional MLT mashes:

I looked around on here for a couple hours and didn’t find exactly what I was looking for, excuse me if you know of a thread, feel free to post a link.

I may be over thinking (read- over engineering) it, as with most things in my setup but I’ve been thinking about my normal mash/dough in and couldn’t help thinking there could be a nice way to get grains into the MLT while I stir it. I usually fair pretty well with my technique of pour some, stir some, pour some, etc. toward the end of dumping I can usually manage to pour and stir (not super effective but it works). The last batch I did I tore the bag the grains were in and watched some of it fall to the floor (luckily only less than .25 lbs I’d guess, in a batch where I accidentally added too much to my bill anyway).

I saw one poster in a different thread which was totally unrelated had an upside down container fixed to the wall that allowed him to open and grain flow slowly into a vessel below (not sure if he was using it for dough in or a holding container above his mill).

Anyhow, interested to see if anyone has a technique or setup that works nice on a homebrew level. I’m sure I could just dump the whole grain bill in and stir and never think about it, but some of this inventing and tinkering and doing more than I need to is part of the fun for me. Let me know what you do, especially if it is different.

 

[IslandLizard]

Is the MLT filled with strike water before adding the grain slowly?
What temp is that strike water?
How long does it take to get all the grain in there and mixed thoroughly with the water?

I'm asking because you may be denaturing enzymes until the mash temps have dropped to a reasonable point.

I underlet the cooler mash tun filled with grain with strike water, and stir as the water rises.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Your overthinking the whole mess...
Add all the grain as quickly as you can then begin stirring immediately until you have a nice oat meal texture to the mash. . . Ime it’s not that difficult, if in doubt stir more

 

[day_trippr]

Underlet, then one good stir, and you're done...

Cheers!

 

[Beardless]

Yup. Overthinking it for sure. I always add water first, make sure it is at mash in temperature, doesn’t take long to dump and stir. Probably could just eliminate the back and forth to just dump the whole lot and stir after. I think it’ll make me feel better now that I have my own mill and will be dumping from a bucket and not plastic trash bags!

These are the answers I am expecting... curious if there are any I’m not expecting. Time will tell.

 

[AF1HomeBrew]

Several years ago, I tried mounting the grain mill above my mashtun. I'd fill the hopper as full as I could get it, and a drill setup to turn on when I hit a switch. I was able to stir while the grain was milled and dumped into the mashtun. A tried it a few times, and it worked but now days I just add the grain in batches and stir unless someone else is helping.

 

[z-bob]

I dump all the grain in at once, stir it up good, then chop up the lumps and stir it again.

A 5 gallon paint stir stick makes a great mash paddle.

 

[Staticsouls]

Grains in first, then slowly add strike water from the bottom.

 

[Jag75]

I have someone else slowly poor in the grains while I stir lol.

 

[mongoose33]

Grains in first, then slowly add strike water from the bottom.

I was waiting for someone to explain underletting....

I do the same thing. Most remarkable feature of underletting is....no dough balls.

The problem for some may be getting the water into the kettle filling from the bottom. Early on when I was doing this with BIAB, I put my old MLT on a high cabinet and ran a line from that (in which the strike water was held, at strike temp) and down between the bag and the side of the kettle. Worked like a million bucks.

Today I pump it from the BK where I've got it at strike temp into the bottom of my MLT through the ball valve and out of the false bottom.

 

[cactusgarrett]

One thing that might not be evident to those unfamiliar with under-letting: to do it easily and efficiently, you do need a pump. I've never tried it, but I can't imagine gravity-feed works as well as is needed. If I ever get a pump, though, under-letting will be the FIRST thing i use it for.

 

[mongoose33]

One thing that might not be evident to those unfamiliar with under-letting: to do it easily and efficiently, you do need a pump. I've never tried it, but I can't imagine gravity-feed works as well as is needed. If I ever get a pump, though, under-letting will be the FIRST thing i use it for.

Actually, it does. See pic above in my post. You need enough drop from the HLT to the bottom of the MT or BIAB kettle for the water to transfer well, but in the case shown above, I had to throttle back the flow to keep it from filling too fast.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Actually, it does. See pic above in my post. You need enough drop from the HLT to the bottom of the MT or BIAB kettle for the water to transfer well, but in the case shown above, I had to throttle back the flow to keep it from filling too fast.

Nice. Anytime i try to drain a measured amount of water from a kettle/HLT it never transfers easily or completely. Thanks!

 

[kh54s10]

I am in the add water to the tun, dump all the grain in, then stir. It is not that difficult and much quicker than a little at a time.

I use one of these: https://www.amazon.com/Update-Inter...18+inch+whisk&qid=1556893680&s=gateway&sr=8-5 It really cuts through any dough balls.

Added: With getting it stirred in more quickly, I can address any mash temperature adjustments needed sooner also.

 

[kevin58]

1. Fill Mash Tun with strike water.
2. Dump in all your grain.
3. Stir.

Option two as mentioned is underletting:

1. Fill Mash Tun with all your grain.
2. Pump strike water into ball valve at bottom of Mash Tun.
3. Stir

 

[Beardless]

Never tried underletting. Maybe I’ll do a trial using that method. In fact I already pump water from the BK through the outlet of the MLT anyhow, the MLT is usually empty tho.

 

[mongoose33]

Never tried underletting. Maybe I’ll do a trial using that method. In fact I already pump water from the BK through the outlet of the MLT anyhow, the MLT is usually empty tho.

When you try this, aim for about a gallon per minute flow. You want to give the grain time to absorb the water.

What I've found is it's still helpful to do a gentle stir of the grain bed once the water is transferred, but gentle is the word. I'm trying to not aerate the grain bed so as to reduce oxidation of the malt flavors.

The bonus is no dough balls. Those stirring it in from above are, by necessity, aerating the mash. Can you produce good beer doing it that way? Sure. Can it be done better? Ask people who underlet why they do.

 

[cactusgarrett]

so as to reduce oxidation of the malt flavors... Ask people who underlet why they do.

... don't do it, man! Don't do it....

 

[seatazzz]

Underletting is the shiznit. I've got my dough-in dialed in to the point where I'm getting consistent mash temperatures within 1° of where I need to be, and never have dough balls. Easier on the back and shoulders too!

 

[bruce_the_loon]

Would there be any benefit in implementing a form of underletting when doing BIAB by filling the bag with the crushed grain and then slowly lowering the bag into the kettle?

 

[grampamark]

I underlet by gravity, also. The bottom of my HLT is just above the top of my 10 gal. cooler MLT. I use a piece of 1/2” tubing with a hose barb which screws into the ball valve on the HLT. The other end slips over a hose barb which is screwed into the valve at the bottom of the MLT.

Depending on the size of the grain bill my typical strike volume is 4-4 1/2 gal. All but the last quart or two transfers by gravity; the last little bit I just dump in the MLT.

Pour grain in mash tun, heat water in HLT, open two valves, stir once. Pretty simple.

 

[cswant88]

I dump all the grain in all at once then stir the crap out of it. Smash dough balls against the MLT walls to break them up.

 

[Horseflesh]

Would there be any benefit in implementing a form of underletting when doing BIAB by filling the bag with the crushed grain and then slowly lowering the bag into the kettle?

I have wondered the same. My rig is an eBIAB with a big strainer basket on a pulley. I could lower the grain in to the water as slowly as I wanted to. Haven't tried it yet.

 

[cubalz]

This is just another example of overthinking something that is easy. Pour your crushed grain into the strike water in thirds, each time stirring between additions. After the last is added, stir the heck out of it one more time, check your mash in temp and then cover.

 

[Beardless]

This is just another example of overthinking something that is easy. Pour your crushed grain into the strike water in thirds, each time stirring between additions. After the last is added, stir the heck out of it one more time, check your mash in temp and then cover.

This is what I currently do. I’m a fan of the technique because it works. But as I was ripping the bag while holding it in the air, and every time I heard the paddle clink against the thermowell of my MLT I wondered what else is out there / what others do. I think I will try underletting just to see how it works for me, but the method you described is what I get good efficiency with currently. We shall see. Thanks for sharing!

 

[RocketBrewer]

I add my strike water to the tun a little higher than predicted to preheat tun, cool to strike temp, and add grains aprox 1/3 to 1/2 at a time depending on grain bill size. I have tried many different spoons/paddles, but have found this to be the absolute best for stirring and breaking up dough balls.

 

[BobBailey]

I'm underletting and it works well. Using a brew bag in a round Rubbermaid 10 gallon cooler. Hardly any dough balls to break up. Just a good stir and mash on.

 

[Jtvann]

This thread made me curious about under letting. Did it for the first time today. Yup ... you guys were right. I'll never go back to any other way.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

When you try this, aim for about a gallon per minute flow. You want to give the grain time to absorb the water.

What I've found is it's still helpful to do a gentle stir of the grain bed once the water is transferred, but gentle is the word. I'm trying to not aerate the grain bed so as to reduce oxidation of the malt flavors.

The bonus is no dough balls. Those stirring it in from above are, by necessity, aerating the mash. Can you produce good beer doing it that way? Sure. Can it be done better? Ask people who underlet why they do.

Guess it's resurrection day for me. I've always either dumped the grain into the already-filled tun all at once and stirred until no more balls exist, added the grain in batches to first make something like a slurry then continue on, or had my wife help by metering in the grain as I was stirring. Intrigued by underletting.

How do you guys calculate strike temps when underletting? I have the thermal mass for my Igloo worked out well enough to hit mash-in within a degree or so, but imagine underletting will need a different set of calculations to hit the strike right.

 

[mongoose33]

Guess it's resurrection day for me. I've always either dumped the grain into the already-filled tun all at once and stirred until no more balls exist, added the grain in batches to first make something like a slurry then continue on, or had my wife help by metering in the grain as I was stirring. Intrigued by underletting.

How do you guys calculate strike temps when underletting? I have the thermal mass for my Igloo worked out well enough to hit mash-in within a degree or so, but imagine underletting will need a different set of calculations to hit the strike right.

I can't see why it would matter for more than a degree or so. The grist is still the same temp as if you stir it in, the water is still the same temp as would otherwise be, except coming in through the bottom.

I haven't done any specific tests of this. I use a RIMS system and start with temps in the high 130s or very low 140s, then I'm doing a step mash. So if it's a little low I don't care, I'll just ramp it up.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I can't see why it would matter for more than a degree or so. The grist is still the same temp as if you stir it in, the water is still the same temp as would otherwise be, except coming in through the bottom.

I haven't done any specific tests of this. I use a RIMS system and start with temps in the high 130s or very low 140s, then I'm doing a step mash. So if it's a little low I don't care, I'll just ramp it up.

I'm thinking of the fact you're metering the water in, as opposed to dumping it in en masse. I'd think that would mean the water ends up cooler and so it would need to come in hotter - right? That's just a gut impression and I don't actually know whether that's accurate.

HERMS is the way to go, eventually. Just getting back in and I'd need to do it in a dedicated space with 220 feed. But more and more, sure seems nice.

 

[jrgtr42]

Personally I add about half my strike water to the mash tun, then the grains. i stir as much as I can, get it more or less incorporated, then add the rest of the water. Stir again, making sure no dough balls.
I'll check the temps, and if needed add a couple more quarts of hot or cold water to get it to where I want it.

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, I underlet my strike as fast as my March 815PL can muster, totally unthrottled. I let it rest for a couple of minutes then give the mash a good stir, then lid it and get ready for recirculation. I use the same Beersmith3 strike calculation as everyone - it doesn't know I'm underletting
Generally hit my desired first rest within a degree...

Cheers!

 

[Gadjobrinus]

fwiw, I underlet my strike as fast as my March 815PL can muster, totally unthrottled. I let it rest for a couple of minutes then give the mash a good stir, then lid it and get ready for recirculation. I use the same Beersmith3 strike calculation as everyone - it doesn't know I'm underletting
Generally hit my desired first rest within a degree...

Cheers!

Cool. Thanks.

 

[mongoose33]

I'm thinking of the fact you're metering the water in, as opposed to dumping it in en masse. I'd think that would mean the water ends up cooler and so it would need to come in hotter - right? That's just a gut impression and I don't actually know whether that's accurate.

HERMS is the way to go, eventually. Just getting back in and I'd need to do it in a dedicated space with 220 feed. But more and more, sure seems nice.

The water is coming out of my hot liquor tank (which is the same as my boil kettle ) at a specific temp. I will have preboiled the water (part of my standard LODO thing), then cooled it back down with my counterflow chiller. When it's at a stabilized temperature then the underletting starts. I can't see how the water cools much if at all--it typically is 5 minutes or so to completely underlet, the pump and hoses are already at temp, and the only thing that's not is the mash tun--but it's not at temp if I just put all the water in there first.

Not so much of a difference as near as I can tell. I was much more concerned with hitting my mash temps when I was using a cooler as a mash tun, but now with my RIMS I can easily warm it up as I like.

And FWIW--and to each his own and we all get to make our own choices--what I don't like about HERMS is the slower response time to warm things up. I think RIMS is more responsive and can dial in the temp more quickly. HERMS also takes up much more space and is more expensive equipment-wise.

The two downsides to RIMS are that A) you'd better shut off the heating coil before you turn off the pump (you'll only make that mistake one time ), and B) with a HERMS system you can add ice to the HERMS kettle to cool things down if you need to. But since I start lower and ramp up, that second one isn't an issue for me.

I've used both and I like RIMS better. Again, to each his own, and as long as you're producing great beer, it doesn't really matter which one.

 

[jerrylotto]

I almost always step mash so I don't need to worry about what temperature I hit adding grain. I slowly add the grain to the heated water while stirring prevent dough balls from forming at around 100F and start at 95F to maximize phytase activity, especially with under--modified malts like Pilsners.

 

[Jag75]

At the brewery (3bbl) erims stout system we underlet slowly. The HLT water is 172f. By the time the mash is ready for recirculation its very close to desired mash temp of 152. Only had an issue a couple times with big grain bills, but the rims works pretty quick to get the temp up .

 

[Jag75]

I'm thinking of the fact you're metering the water in, as opposed to dumping it in en masse. I'd think that would mean the water ends up cooler and so it would need to come in hotter - right? That's just a gut impression and I don't actually know whether that's accurate.

HERMS is the way to go, eventually. Just getting back in and I'd need to do it in a dedicated space with 220 feed. But more and more, sure seems nice.

Yes you are correct , at least from my experience. The bigger the grain bill the more time it takes to move over the water and ensure no dough balls.

 

[DonT]

This is a rather timely thread for me, as I just started to underlet (second time on Friday). I have a HERMS system and before I was just dumping the water into the MT a gallon at a time aerating the h*ll out of it. It worked, but I'm on a quest to improve my hazys, so I started doing yeast oxygen scavenging and underletting the mash.

 

[Spartan1979]

I started underletting last year but I still get doughballs. Maybe I need to slow it down.