Double NEIPA recipe advice

[MvdDonk]

I want to brew my first Double New England IPA with three "C-hops": Citra, Columbus and Centennial (because I have these laying around). Normally I brew 20 liters/5 gallons batches but this recipe is for 15 liter/4 gallons. The recipe is inspired on some articles I've read and other recipes. I'm curious to see what you think of this recipe.
Does any of you have experience with this hop combination? Do they taste good together? Should I increase, decrease or skip the bittering hop? What do you think of the water chemistry, enough and correct ratios to get a full body?

DDH Double NEIPA BIAB 15L
Recipe link: https://share.brewfather.app/pDB0nsELXSUKf7
New England IPA
7.5% / 17.5 °P
All Grain

Maarten BIAB 15L
70% efficiency
Batch Volume: 17.7 L (Kettle)
Fermenter Volume: 16.49 L
Boil Time: 60 min
Mash Water: 14.47 L
Sparge Water: 10.59 L @ 80 °C
Total Water: 25.06 L
Boil Volume: 19.7 L
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.062

Vitals
Original Gravity: 1.072
Final Gravity: 1.015
IBU (Tinseth): 48
Color: 10.8 EBC

Mash
Temperature — 67 °C — 60 min
Temperature — 78 °C — 10 min

Malts (5.361 kg)
2.621 kg (47.6%) — Weyermann Pilsner — Grain — 3.5 EBC
2.04 kg (37%) — The Swaen Swaen Ale — Grain — 7.5 EBC
350 g (6.4%) — Oats, Flaked — Grain — 2 EBC
350 g (6.4%) — Wheat Flaked — Grain — 3.2 EBC

Other (150 g)
150 g (2.7%) — Sugar, Table (Sucrose) — Sugar — 2 EBC

Hops (233.8 g)
14.8 g (27 IBU) — Columbus/Tomahawk/Zeus (CTZ) 16.2% — Boil — 30 min

20.1 g (8 IBU) — Citra 13.6% — Aroma — 30 min hopstand @ 82 °C
20.1 g (9 IBU) — Columbus/Tomahawk/Zeus (CTZ) 16.2% — Aroma — 30 min hopstand @ 82 °C
19.2 g (5 IBU) — Centennial 9.4% — Aroma — 30 min hopstand @ 82 °C

35.1 g — Citra 13.6% — Dry Hop — day 2 (during or near end of fermentation)
34.7 g — Centennial 9.4% — Dry Hop — day 2 (during or near end of fermentation)
10 g — Columbus/Tomahawk/Zeus (CTZ) 16.2% — Dry Hop — day 2 (during or near end of fermentation)

35.1 g — Citra 13.6% — Dry Hop — day 4
34.7 g — Centennial 9.4% — Dry Hop — day 4
10 g — Columbus/Tomahawk/Zeus (CTZ) 16.2% — Dry Hop — day 4

Hopstand at 82 °C

Miscs
16 g — Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) 33% — Mash
1.6 g — Canning Salt (NaCl) — Mash
4.1 g — Epsom Salt (MgSO4) — Mash
1 g — Gypsum (CaSO4) — Mash

Yeast
1 pkg — Lallemand (LalBrew) New England

Fermentation
Primary — 19 °C — 7 days

Carbonation: 2.4 CO2-vol

Water Profile after treatment
Ca+2: 119
Mg+2: 19
Na+: 36
Cl-: 184
SO4-2: 91
HCO3-: 120

 

[wepeeler]

Personally, I would mash higher. At least 68C/154-155F.

I would exclude the sucrose, as it will only dry out the beer. You want a nice soft, round mouthfeel.

Your HCO3 seems a bit high. Mine is never much over 15, I believe.

Hops look fine, but are you really getting 27 IBU out of 14g of CTZ @30? I use that much at 60 sometimes and don't even get 20 IBU. I would add more hops to the hopstand/WP. That's where you're going to get a lot of that NEIPA flavor and aroma! I go as big as 140-160g!

I usually shoot for 60-70 IBU, but I also mash higher and end around 1.016-1.018. This style needs the hops to balance the residual sweetness, IMHO.

 

[RCope]

Welcome! You'll find lots of great info on the forum. The "Northeast IPA" thread will be of particular interest to you...but it's tough to go through if you haven't been there from the start.

My thoughts: I agree with @wepeeler, mash higher, adding sugar will dry it out. If you want to up the OG, add some more base malt. I've gone away from flaked adjuncts, but use malted oats and wheat quite a bit. I've made excellent NEIPA's with stable haze with no adjuncts...But flaked can work well, too.

Your hop combo works very well, as does you ratios. I'd double your WP (hop stand) additions, 82 degrees is fine. Most here (not all) skip the active fermentation dry hop, soft crash to 55-60, add one or two dry hop additions post-ferm, cold crash after about 3 days then keg. You'll get plenty of "biotransformation" from your WP additions.

I don't know about your source water...I build from RO water. But 16 grams is a lot of CaCl...and I'd try to keep your Ca below 100. Maybe add a bit more NaCl, take out the CaSO4 completely (your source must already have a lot of SO4). Reduce your MgSO4 to 1g. Your ratio is fine, but I'd lower the sulfate. I have gone to a 3:1ish ratio, Cl to SO4.

And I don't see a pH...5.3 is good...I usually have to add about 4 oz of acidulated to a grain bill like yours. Again, you source water will affect that.

All of this is my 2 cents

 

[couchsending]

Keep the dextrose, you could even increase it honestly. 7.5% isn’t really IIPA territory. 7.8-8% is more of what I think of with double IPAs. Maybe that’s just me. Alcohol provides so much body and sweetness on its own that drying the beer out a bit makes it more drinkable in my mind. My personal favorite IIPAs are Hill Farmstead Double (Citra, Galaxy, Nelson, Riwaka, etc). They generally finish at 1.012.

Way too much CaCl. And where is all that HCO3 coming from? Is that your tap water with additions? That much CaCl and you’re gonna get a very aspirin like taste. 5-6g in the mash and that’s it. Where’s your acid addition? You’re going to need some sort of acid to counteract all the HCO3 or your pH is gonna be rather high I believe.

I’d maybe increase the whirlpool additions a bit, nothing crazy. I might even add a bit more at 30.

This yeast won’t be near done until closer to day 6 probably. Pretty sure this is the dried Conan. It’s notoriously slow to finish out in liquid form. Also you might need more yeast. This yeast in particular has really low cell counts, it doesn’t dry as well as some other yeast. Check the specs on Lallemand‘s website. They recommend pitching 2 packs for much lower gravities than this. If you don’t have another Pack of this yeast you could blend in some So4 or other dry yeast.

If you can’t crash without sucking in o2 move all your dry hop additions to the very very end of fermentation. I’d assume day 6 probably. Don’t bother with the day 2 addition, it’s a waste.

 

[MvdDonk]

Thank you all for your in depth reactions, really useful!

Body: I'll add some more base malts to increase the body.
IBU: How I'm getting 27 IBU out of 14g CTZ @30, not sure that's what my brewing software (Brewfather, see recipe link) says... Maybe it's because it's a smaller batch?
Hopstand: I will increase the hopstand, good point.
Yeast: About the yeast, I could replace the package with two packages of SafAle S-04, does it work well for a NEIPA?

Now for the biggest issue: water profile!
My source water is just tap water from The Netherlands. I'm still in the "if you can drink it, you can brew with it" mode, thinking I could change the chemistry by adding the chemicals (mainly to increase Cl to SO4 ratio).
Here is the report for my tap water:
Ca: 33
Mg: 3
Na: 11
Cl: 11
SO4: 5
HCO3: 120

Complete source water profile:
I don't think there is much I can do about the HCO3 except changing my source water?


Just a side note the CaCl I'm using is in liquid form and has concentration of 33%, the software calculates how much grams of the liquid is required. The weird thing is the software isn't showing any big amounts of wrong values (except the HCO3):


The pH with my water treatment and malts is 5.59, I could add 4.1ml of lactic acid (concentration 80%) this will lower the pH to 5.30

Again, thanks for your help and time, really appreciate it!

 

[RCope]

To answer your yeast question (since @couchsending isn't chiming in...he has a lot more experience in these matters), I'd stick to the Lallemand New England, especially if it's Conan. Pitch two packs if possible, or make a starter with the one. I don't have any experience with SO4 in a NEIPA...I use A24 or WY1318. But I have made a starter out of dry yeast in the past and that works well.

And definitely add the lactic acid.

 

[couchsending]

Lallemand New England is supposedly dried Conan but it doesn’t have a great reputation in dried form. The cell counts are incredibly low on that yeast in particular. You’re definitely gonna need two packs and I’d bet the Lallemand pitch calculator will tell you more like 4 packs.

So4 is supposedly used by the likes of Tree House and Toppling Goliath. It just needs to be fermented below 64 for the first few days ideally. It can get really lactic and harsh at even 68.

 

[MvdDonk]

After making some changes to the recipe I started brewing and it's been ready for a few days now so a small update:
My closed transfer from fermenter to keg clogged up so unfortunately I had to open my fermenter and introduced some oxygen...
None the less the beer turned out great! Citrussy, pineapple?, full and round body and quite a big bitter (maybe I should drop the bitter hop at the start of boil next time). Don't get me wrong, the bitter isn't too much but it isn't the sweetest NEIPA I had.

The updated recipe:
Tripple C - Imperial New England IPA
Recept op BrewFather
New England IPA
7.9% / 19.2 °P
All Grain

Maarten BIAB 15L
No-sparge
65% efficiency
Batch Volume: 16.5 L
Boil Time: 60 min
Mash Water: 24.57 L
Total Water: 24.57 L
Boil Volume: 20.43 L
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.067

Vitals
Original Gravity: 1.080
Final Gravity: 1.020
IBU (Tinseth): 39
Color: 11.8 EBC

Mash
Temperature — 68 °C — 60 min
Temperature — 78 °C — 10 min

Malts (6.2 kg)
2.6 kg (39%) — Weyermann Pilsner — Grain — 3.5 EBC
2.6 kg (39%) — The Swaen Swaen Ale — Grain — 7.5 EBC
600 g (9%) — Oats, Flaked — Grain — 2 EBC
400 g (6%) — Wheat Flaked — Grain — 3.2 EBC

Other (475 g)
300 g (4.5%) — Briess Rice Hulls — Adjunct — 0 EBC
175 g (2.6%) — Sugar, Table (Sucrose) — Sugar — 2 EBC — Boil — 10 min

Hops (255.4 g)
2 g (4 IBU) — Columbus/Tomahawk/Zeus (CTZ) 16.2% — Boil — 60 min

35 g (8 IBU) — Centennial 9.4% — Aroma — 30 min hopstand @ 82 °C
35 g (12 IBU) — Citra 13.6% — Aroma — 30 min hopstand @ 82 °C
35 g (15 IBU) — Columbus/Tomahawk/Zeus (CTZ) 16.2% — Aroma — 30 min hopstand @ 82 °C

65 g — Centennial 9.4% — Dry Hop — day 5 (2 days before kegging)
65 g — Citra 13.6% — Dry Hop — day 5 (2 days before kegging)
18.4 g — Columbus/Tomahawk/Zeus (CTZ) 16.2% — Dry Hop — day 5 (2 days before kegging)

Hopstand at 82 °C

Miscs
15.1 g — Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) 33% — Mash (liquid form 33%)
1.2 g — Canning Salt (NaCl) — Mash
3.9 g — Epsom Salt (MgSO4) — Mash
5.1 ml — Lactic Acid 80% — Mash

Yeast
2 pkg — Fermentis S-04 SafAle English Ale 75%

Fermentation
Primary — 16 °C — 2 days
Primary — 18 °C — 7 days

Carbonation: 2.4 CO2-vol

Water Profile
After threatment (Amersfoort)
Ca+2: 106
Mg+2: 18
Na+: 30
Cl-: 170
SO4-2: 67
HCO3-: 120

Source, Amersfoort:
Ca+2: 33
Mg+2: 3
Na+: 11
Cl-: 11
SO4-2: 5
HCO3-: 120



Again, thanks a lot for all the feedback and helping me out wit the recipe!
Picture time, colors are a bit darker on the photo: