Does my Wit really need this long mashing?

[Remos112]

So yesterdat I bought a kit for 20 liter Witbier containing the following:
Pilsener malt
Wheat malt light
Flaked wheat
Flaked oat.

I have brewed Wheat in the past, but those were all extracts. The kit supplies the following mashing schedule:
50C 15 min
62C 45 min
72c 30 min
78C 5 min
Seriously 95 minutes of mashing? That sounds awfully long! Is this because it is a wit and it needs some special mash, or is this excessive, and if so, who can give me a better/shorter schedule. It also calls fo a 90 minute boil wich I always do with any Pilsener malt beer. But boy this is a time consuming brew if I follow everything to the letter.

Looking forward to your opinions,
Greetings Remi

 

[IslandLizard]

It's a step mash. So yeah, they take a little longer.

Because of the relatively high wheat and flaked grain content there is a combined 15' protein/beta glucanase rest at 50C. This is recommended so your mash will be easier to lauter. So spend the 15 minutes now or an extra 30 minutes later when your mash plugs up.

That 50C rest and the slowly raising the temps to following step will also increase mash efficiency and make a bit more fermentable wort.

The somewhat shorter saccharification step at 62C followed by the 30 minute 72C step is to promote extra alpha-amylase activity to get more dextrins, while beta-amylase is pretty much ineffective at that temp.

78C is the mashout step to lock in your wort (sugar) profile. It denatures all conversion enzymes. Most of us mashout for 10 minutes actually, not 5.

 

[Remos112]

It's a step mash. So yeah, they take a little longer.

Because of the relatively high wheat and flaked grain content there is a combined 15' protein/beta glucanase rest at 50C. This is recommended so your mash will be easier to lauter. So spend the 15 minutes now or 30 minutes later when your mash plugs up.

I do step mashes with most of my brews. however I have never seen anyone this long. But if you say it is worth it I can't see why I shouldn't try it. Thanks!

 

[IslandLizard]

I've added some extra stuff regarding the various mash steps to my post above. Don't miss it.

Do you have a mash vessel that can be heated?

If not, mash in your kettle, and stir well while you're heating slowly (!). Scrape that bottom and bring the bottom of the mash to the top while heating.
Wrap and cover when it's resting, and you're not heating.
When the mash is done, ladle it with a large long handled saucepan into your mash tun for lautering and sparging.

 

[divrack]

while the above advice is spot on you could always ignore it, and Chuck in some rice hulls and mash at 152-4 and I'm not sure you'd notice the difference...
but you'd always know in the back of your mind that maybe it could be better if it wasn't for your damned lazy self!

 

[Remos112]

I've added some extra stuff regarding the various mash steps to my post above. Don't miss it.

Do you have a mash vessel that can be heated?

If not, mash in your kettle, and stir well while you're heating slowly (!). Scrape that bottom and bring the bottom of the mash to the top while heating.
Wrap and cover when it's resting, and you're not heating.
When the mash is done, ladle it with a large long handled saucepan into your mash tun for lautering and sparging.

I mash in my kettle and I have a circulating pump running during the entire mash, it also has a thermowell and a digital thermometer, and I can control the temperature pretty accurately this way.

Thanks for the additional information!

 

[Remos112]

while the above advice is spot on you could always ignore it, and Chuck in some rice hulls and mash at 152-4 and I'm not sure you'd notice the difference...
but you'd always know in the back of your mind that maybe it could be better if it wasn't for your damned lazy self!

For some reason rice hulls aren't available over here, also good point, if being lazy is the goal I shouldn't brew in the first place.
Thanks

 

[IslandLizard]

[...] you could always ignore it, and Chuck in some rice hulls and mash at 152-4 [...]

I wasn't going to mention that...

The whole mash actually takes a bit longer than the 95 minutes. It takes 10-15 minutes to get from 50 to 62C, and another 10' to 72C and...
Just make sure you don't try to speed it up and ending up scorching it! Heat slowly and stir steadily. A thick bottomed kettle is really no luxury here.

You didn't mention how much wheat and flaked goods are in the recipe. If it's minor go with @divrack's rice hull method. If it's 50% or more (as it should!), step mash.

 

[Remos112]

I wasn't going to mention that...

The whole mash actually takes a bit longer than the 95 minutes. It takes 10-15 minutes to get from 50 to 62C, and another 10' to 72C and...
Just make sure you don't try to speed it up and ending up scorching it! Heat slowly and stir steadily.

I have the rise time set at 10 minutes, this worked well for me in past brews, it indeed makes the brew even longer, but as long as it is worth it I don't mind.

You didn't mention how much wheat and flaked goods are in the recipe.

Indeed I didn't as this is listed nowhere, if I have to guess though it is about 50% pilsener and 50% wheat flaked wheat and flaked oat.
Wich seems pretty common in other recipes I came across.

 

[IslandLizard]

I have the rise time set at 10 minutes, this worked well for me in past brews, it indeed makes the brew even longer, but as long as it is worth it I don't mind.

Indeed I didn't as this is listed nowhere, if I have to guess though it is about 50% pilsener and 50% wheat flaked wheat and flaked oat.
Wich seems pretty common in other recipes I came across.

Recirculating mash, rise time... Who's cheating now?

50% is about right for this style. To call it a wheat beer it should contain at least 50% wheat (per German Reinheitsgebot). Make sure those wheat malt kernels are crushed. They're small and may drop through the gap uncrushed. When whole kernels are visible, mill again.

You really should check out Eric Warner's Double Decoction Wheat Mash (note the elapsed time):

Warner's Double Wheat Decoction_Graph

• IslandLizard
• Jan 27, 2015

 

[Remos112]

Recirculating mash, rise time... Who's cheating now?

I have the rig set up, might as well use it, right?
Thanks for all the info!

 

[dmtaylor]

Hell no, you don't need a long step mash for a good witbier. Just mash at 65 C for 45 minutes, and you're done. Seriously. That's what I do and I make a great wit.

The protein rest at 50 C can ruin your haze and head retention, too, by the way. Definitely skip that step.

 

[dmtaylor]

For some reason rice hulls aren't available over here, also good point, if being lazy is the goal I shouldn't brew in the first place.

"Being lazy" and "skipping totally unnecessary and possibly detrimental steps" are NOT the same two things.

 

[Remos112]

"Being lazy" and "skipping totally unnecessary and possibly detrimental steps" are NOT the same two things.

Exactly why I started this topic , thanks for your input !

 

[dmtaylor]

Exactly why I started this topic , thanks for your input !

It is, of course, totally up to you to decide whom to trust.

More to my own story: My first witbier included a protein rest just as your recipe states. It tasted great and scored well in competition. But.... it was thin, watery, and clear as crystal. BJCP judges commented as such, and I agreed with them. Which was fine, I still enjoyed drinking it very much. But..... why the extra effort for something that hurt the beer?!

 

[IslandLizard]

The protein rest at 50 C can ruin your haze and head retention

That's why we only do them for 10-15 minutes. Never had any lack of haze or head with that mashing schedule.

 

[Remos112]

It is, of course, totally up to you to decide whom to trust.

More to my own story: My first witbier included a protein rest just as your recipe states. It tasted great and scored well in competition. But.... it was thin, watery, and clear as crystal. BJCP judges commented as such, and I agreed with them. Which was fine, I still enjoyed drinking it very much. But..... why the extra effort for something that hurt the beer?!

Thanks for your input , wouldn’t the oat flakes help for more mouthfeel? Not sure about any hazyness though , I always thought wits were hazy due to yeast choiche, never thought about mash influences

 

[dmtaylor]

That's why we only do them for 10-15 minutes. Never had any lack of haze or head with that mashing schedule.

I have. Anecdotal but I have.

Thanks for your input , wouldn’t the oat flakes help for more mouthfeel? Not sure about any hazyness though , I always thought wits were hazy due to yeast choiche, never thought about mash influences

Source of haze is a bit of both. Probably more due to unmalted wheat and oats than anything else, but I'm not entirely certain. Both would add mouthfeel for sure... unless degraded by the unnecessary protein rest.

EDIT: Actually I'm fairly sure the haze is more from the grains than the yeast. I have used WLP400 many times for NON-witbiers and they come out clear.

 

[Remos112]

I finally got around brewing this last weekend.
I sticked to the prescribed mash schedule and it was long, very long.
Sparging was a mess, especially the final running, my filter was struggling to let anything through (we don't have ricehulls here).
Ended up with a whopping 86% mash efficiency though so added 2 liters of extra water or else I would have ended up with 7% ABV. Witbier. Pitched Wyeast 3944 and it is bubbling away since sunday. Will update as soon as I have any news!

 

[dmtaylor]

Thanks for the update. Please let us know whether you end up with sufficient haze and head retention, or not. Thanks.

 

[Remos112]

Thanks for the update. Please let us know whether you end up with sufficient haze and head retention, or not. Thanks.

Will do! I will definetily try your method too and compare results. Thanks again for your input!

 

[Remos112]

preboil sample

 

[IslandLizard]

preboil sample

That looks really good, nice and light! Not that hazy though...

If you can't get rice hulls, which surprises me, oat hulls can be used instead, if you can get those.

 

[MVKTR2]

I realize this is brewed, looks great btw, but wanted to add the protein rest is really important to this beer. With the wheat and oats consisting of more than 50% of the grist you can arrive at a sickly thick beer. Ask me how I know! That said my last Wit was the best wit I've tasted, surely attributed to freshness as this is a brew that ages poorly. I can't say strongly enough this is a style meant for homebrewing!

 

[Remos112]

That looks really good, nice and light! Not that hazy though...

If you can't get rice hulls, which surprises me, oat hulls can be used instead, if you can get those.

Keep in mind this was the pre-boil sample, I boiled away about 10% of liquid, can imagine this makes it slightly darker. Also there was no yeast in this sample.
I will try and look for some hulls next time I brew this.
Ps this was the poridge I was left with

 

[IslandLizard]

Keep in mind this was the pre-boil sample, I boiled away about 10% of liquid, can imagine this makes it slightly darker. Also there was no yeast in this sample.
I will try and look for some hulls next time I brew this.
Ps this was the poridge I was left with

Boiling itself makes wort darker, not as much the 10% larger concentration.
Ask around what brewers in your country or area use as a lautering aid. I thought rice hulls were pretty commonly used, are cheap and abundant. Half a pound of rice hulls in a 5 gallon batch of sticky mash does wonders.

That porridge looks very typical, with the cement like sludge on top. Did you sparge that?

Good stirring before lautering also breaks up the glue, literally. IIRC, Palmer mentions that in How to Brew (3rd ed.).

 

[Remos112]

Boiling itself makes wort darker, not as much the 10% larger concentration.
Ask around what brewers in your country or area use as a lautering aid. I thought rice hulls were pretty commonly used, are cheap and abundant. Half a pound of rice hulls in a 5 gallon batch of sticky mash does wonders.

That porridge looks very typical, with the cement like sludge on top. Did you sparge that?

Good stirring before lautering also breaks up the glue, literally. IIRC, Palmer mentions that in How to Brew (3rd ed.).

Yes I did The sparging went fine until the last few liters, I had a real though time by then. Will ask around locally and see what I can come up with. Thanks so far. Will update with pictures of the beer in the glass!

 

[Beer666]

Hell no, you don't need a long step mash for a good witbier. Just mash at 65 C for 45 minutes, and you're done. Seriously. That's what I do and I make a great wit.

The protein rest at 50 C can ruin your haze and head retention, too, by the way. Definitely skip that step.

That's good to know. I don't even boil mine anymore and i am getting better lacing than ever and drinking it in a week.

 

[Remos112]

That's good to know. I don't even boil mine anymore and i am getting better lacing than ever and drinking it in a week.

Wait what you don't boil your wort? This only makes sense if you're a extract brewer that doesn't use hops. please eleborate.

 

[dmtaylor]

Wait what you don't boil your wort? This only makes sense if you're a extract brewer that doesn't use hops. please eleborate.

It is actually traditional in some places not to boil wheat beers, or employ a very minimal boil. Some people figure a little sourness in a wheat isn't such a terrible thing. Best case of this: Berliner weisse. However I wouldn't be terribly surprised if it were used for the occasional witbier if desired. Probably not the norm, and maybe not "the right way", I'm not sure, but I'm sure I would enjoy it.

Cheers all.

 

[Hopalong]

Authentic Wit beer is decoction brewed and the mash is boiled with hops a few times for that reason wort isn't boiled. There are two low temperature rest performed in different decoctions. Otherwise, when the protein rest is performed on the entire volume of mash the rest is over extended even when a short rest period is used. When malt is 12 to 16% protein, a protein rest performed on the entire volume of mash causes the beer to become somewhat insipid, but very stabile. Homebrew malt is 12 to 16% protein, brewers grade malt is below 10% protein.
"The somewhat shorter saccharification step at 62C followed by the 30 minute 72C step is to promote extra alpha-amylase activity to get more dextrins, while beta-amylase is pretty much ineffective at that temp."

Alpha is responsible for liquefaction, saccharification and dextrinization.
Beta is responsible for conversion.

The rest at 144F is called the conversion rest, but saccharification takes place at the same time, otherwise, glucose that Alpha releases from amylose during saccharification wouldn't be converted into maltose and maltotriose by Beta amylase during conversion. When conversion takes place secondary fermentation is required, and the beer will not require the addition of priming sugar or CO2 for carbonation. Yet, secondary fermentation is a no-no, never do in homebrewing. The rest is omitted from recipes because it adds two extra weeks to the brewing schedule. More so, the rest is omitted from recipes because fully modified doesn't contain Beta amylase, and when that happens only saccharification occurs during the conversion rest. Then, primary fermentation is only needed because the complex sugars that Beta forms during conversion aren't there. Without Beta amylase and a conversion rest the beer produced is similar in quality to Prohibition style beer regardless of the label on the recipe. An Alpha-Beta amylase mixture needs to be added to fully modified malt along with a conversion rest to make ale and lager with the malt.

During the 162F rest Alpha releases more sweet tasting, nonfermenting sugar than glucose. The sweetness counterbalances dryness which occurs during aging when a conversion rest is used. The high temperature rest is standard in step mashing Pils, Lager and fine Ale.
Dextrinization occurs after mash is boiled because amylopectin, a heat resistant, complex starch enters into solution rapidly at boiling. The boiling mash is added back into the main mash and at that time Alpha releases A and B limit from the starch. A and B limit dextrin are types of tasteless, nonfermenting sugar that are responsible for body and mouthfeel. The temperatures used during infusion brewing aren't high enough to cause the starch to enter into solution before Alpha denatures, leaving the starch untouched and in the spent mash. When dextrinization doesn't occur beer thins during aging.

Beta was pretty much wiped out during the conversion rest at 144F at 45 minutes.

 

[Remos112]

Two weeks in the bottle now, tastes great and Good body too

 

[Remos112]

 

[tennesseean_87]

View attachment 592583

Is that ale, or prohibition beer? Did you look at the spec sheet? Did you use distillers' malt like we homebrewers always do?

 

[Remos112]

Is that ale, or prohibition beer? Did you look at the spec sheet? Did you use distillers' malt like we homebrewers always do?

I fermented it warm with Wyeast 3944 So it’s an Ale. The spec sheets say pilsener malt wheat malt wheat flakes and oat flakes . Does this answer your question?

 

[tennesseean_87]

I fermented it warm with Wyeast 3944 So it’s an Ale. The spec sheets say pilsener malt wheat malt wheat flakes and oat flakes . Does this answer your question?

Sorry, I'm ragging on the post upthread with all the garbage in it.

 

[urg8rb8]

I'm ready to make a Belgian Wit... What would be the recommended single step mash temp?

 

[dmtaylor]

I'm ready to make a Belgian Wit... What would be the recommended single step mash temp?

It's not critical. Anywhere from 149-154 F will work just fine.

 

[urg8rb8]

It's not critical. Anywhere from 149-154 F will work just fine.

How much of a mouthfeel/dryness difference between 149 and 154? If there is a difference, what would be appropriate for this style?

 

[dmtaylor]

How much of a mouthfeel/dryness difference between 149 and 154? If there is a difference, what would be appropriate for this style?

None in my experience.