Do your under age kids drink w/you at home?

[bergen69]

I think you'll find that the founders of this country were very committed to the rule of law. The American revolution was a carefully considered response to injustice. It wasn't a bunch of dudes sitting around leeching the latest Ke$ha torrents, feeling empowered by what they could get away with.

I would imagine the British would have a different point of view,but maybe not (about the injustice, not Ke$ha). Of course I've often been accused of a little treason now and then. I have yet to meet a person who has obeyed every law, of course we all make mistakes, but the "I always obey the rules" guy will speed when he's late or not claim the $25 bucks a week he gets for mowing the neighbors lawn. People should purposely read the banned book (yes there are still banned books), question rule of law and teach their children about responsible alcohol use. Not let them be in college for 2 or 3 years and have their first drink at a frat party. The kid down the street who is adult enough to chose to join the army, train to kill and risk being killed is adult enough to have a beer.

 

[MalFet]

I would imagine the British would have a different point of view,but maybe not (about the injustice, not Ke$ha). Of course I've often been accused of a little treason now and then. I have yet to meet a person who has obeyed every law, of course we all make mistakes, but the "I always obey the rules" guy will speed when he's late or not claim the $25 bucks a week he gets for mowing the neighbors lawn. People should purposely read the banned book (yes there are still banned books), question rule of law and teach their children about responsible alcohol use. Not let them be in college for 2 or 3 years and have their first drink at a frat party. The kid down the street who is adult enough to chose to join the army, train to kill and risk being killed is adult enough to have a beer.

If you read my posts in this thread, you'll find I'm not arguing against any of that. My point is simply that ridiculing people who respect the law for the law's sake is kind of juvenile.

 

[bergen69]

If you read my posts in this thread, you'll find I'm not arguing against any of that. My point is simply that ridiculing people who respect the law for the law's sake is kind of juvenile.

Very true...I misunderstood what you were getting at. Viva la revolution!

 

[jerrodm]

That's a hell of a word fort.

Oh sorry--didn't realize we weren't looking for an actual thoughtful conversation here. Maybe some easy, trite, quasi-ideological pap is more your style, like the following:

Dadgum guvment cain't tell me what to do with my kin! Don't tread on me!

There, is that better?

 

[seabass07]

Much bettar! Damn right. Fck da police! <---------------see, it gets the point across pretty well.

 

[jakenbacon]

And for you, it's never too late to start thinking about someone other than yourself.

Some people value and support the rule of law. No need to treat them as sheep.

I think he was just stating that one should not follow a law because it is law. We all as American's respect our laws, but I highly doubt everyone thinks EVERY law is legit. Basically it sounds like you are willing to do whatever the law states, regardless of how ridiculous. Like I said before, scary man....

 

[MalFet]

I think he was just stating that one should not follow a law because it is law. We all as American's respect our laws, but I highly doubt everyone thinks EVERY law is legit. Basically it sounds like you are willing to do whatever the law states, regardless of how ridiculous. Like I said before, scary man....

Please take a moment to read my posts in this thread before you start calling me names.

 

[ammo]

There is some talk about laws here and I have not read the entire thread, because it is freaky long, but I just checked and in Texas it is not illegal to give your child alcohol. See page 6 below. I imagine that these laws vary by state.

http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/education/pdfs/Alcohol-And-Your-Child.pdf

 

[whoaru99]

I guess there is always the converse opinion...if it's not necessary wrong to do something the law forbids then it's not necessarily right to do something just because the law allows it.

 

[Otterella]

Whew, that one got judgmental real fast!

Otterella, what have people said about your little tastes while pregnant? My wife's doctor told her he preferred she drink a couple of glasses of wine a week rather than a single cup of coffee. No issues with either pregnancy or the girls afterwards, so his advice is solid by us!

When I was pregnant with my first was the only time I ever actually ordered a beer while visibly pregnant, and I mostly did it for the reaction. Sitting at the table, she couldn't see my belly, but when we were done and I stood up, she was horrified. It was pretty funny. And when I was pregnant with my second, my midwife said something similar. She said it was better to sit in a hot tub with a glass of red wine and sushi than to eat a bunch of processed crap.

But then, I'm a bit of a rebel in a lot of ways.

 

[bergen69]

There is some talk about laws here and I have not read the entire thread, because it is freaky long, but I just checked and in Texas it is not illegal to give your child alcohol. See page 6 below. I imagine that these laws vary by state.

http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/education/pdfs/Alcohol-And-Your-Child.pdf

Interesting pamphlet. Nice use of fear mongering and guilt. Again I find it interesting that it wants parents involved in enforcement, but not in training. How am I as a parent supposed to train my children to use alcohol responsibly when they are 21 and attending a college?

 

[kanta]

You can drink when you are 18. Join the military. You seriously think those kids who are serving in the armed forces don't have access to alcohol? That 21/18 argumen never made sense to me.

Kids in the military are the ones that have the most difficult time getting away with underage drinking. back when I was an instructor, I wrote countless Article 92 mast packages for the ones that couldn't seem to understand that being told when they entered service, when they arrived at the command, at every GMT, and every Friday afternoon before we let them go for the weekend "If you are under 21, do not drink". Generally, the result was 45 days restriction, 45 days extra duty, and forfeiture of one half month of pay for two months.

I never did agree with the law, but at that time, I was in a position of authority and I was required to follow protocol, which in the case of underage sailors drinking meant sending them to the legal department and getting another mast package ready.

That isn't my job any longer, and while my kids are younger than I feel comfortable allowing them to consume any amount of alcohol, I do remember when I was little, my father was stationed in Germany (back then it was West Germany) and he would let me have the foam off the top of his glasses of beer. I tipped the glass too far once and got a bit of beer in my mouth. I thought it was pretty terrible, and I didn't really acquire a taste for beer until I was in my early to mid twenties, stationed in the state of Washington.

When I feel that my kids are ready to actually learn what I want to teach them about alcohol, I will teach them that it is perfectly ok to drink, as long as responsibilities are going to be met (driving, work, school, etc). I have never been drunk in front of my children, and I don't care for the feeling of not having control of my faculties anyways, so hopefully they will follow the example I have set for them.

 

[seabass07]

Interesting pamphlet. Nice use of fear mongering and guilt. Again I find it interesting that it wants parents involved in enforcement, but not in training. How am I as a parent supposed to train my children to use alcohol responsibly when they are 21 and attending a college?

That is an excellent point. I'd rather demystify alcohol from around 16 on so that when my kids are 18 and in college with sudden access to alcohol, they can be smart about it.

 

[nbrack]

Opening up a homebrew and following along

 

[jakenbacon]

Please take a moment to read my posts in this thread before you start calling me names.

Totally not targeting you or calling you names sir, but as far as 'read my post before' I think that should go for most people spouting on here, but it's a forum, that is what they are intended for, to spout. I respect you view, I really do, just disagree with what I am pulling out of this conversation, or at least with your view. Stand strong brotha, I totally understand what you are saying and where your coming from.

 

[Gunpowder]

Alcohol was "demystified" for me when I was about 12 and I saw my grandmother drinking a can of Narraganset on pizza night. She let me have some and I liked it. My mother said "Everything in moderation, especially beer! If you want a beer on pizza night, that's fine, but you're in for the night if you have one." Fair deal. The novelty of that lasted all of 2 weeks before I decided going outside to play was more important to me.

Since then, I've NEVER had enough beer to be drunk. I've had a few buzzes going on, but nothing to make throw up, fall down, or wake up with a hangover. For me, beer is about flavor, not effect. When I was in high school and went to parties, I never drank if I was driving.. not even a sip (my state ANY reading on a breathalyzer while under 21 is serious ****) If I wasn't driving, I'd have a beer or two, then call my mother to pick me up. She smelled the beer, but never asked about it. All she did was praise me for being smart enough to call for a ride.

That beer experience when I was 12 completely shaped how I felt about alcohol. Other kids were strictly prohibited from it, yet they saw adults drinking it. That's the best way to make sure they go out of their way to find it and drink as much of it as possible. I call that "bad parenting". My daughter is 5 years old right now, and she saw me drinking a beer and asked "What's that?" I said "Beer. It's for adults." She asked "Can I try it?" I said "Nope. When you're older." She asked why, and I said "This is why..." and I let her smell it. (It was an IPA). She wrinkled her nose and said "YUCK! If that's what you have to drink when you're an adult, I'll stay a kid forever!!" LOL It was cute, but all the same.

When she gets older, if she wants to try a beer, I'll let her do it under the same conditions as my grandmother let me do it. A couple of sips, and you're in for the night. That takes the mystery out of it. And the law be damned on this issue, too. The government has no place telling me how to raise my kids. If I give my kid a six pack and the car keys, sure, come arrest me. But if I let her have a couple of sips of beer and keep her inside for the night to break the mystery and make a responsible teenager out of her, then screw you, it's none of your business.

It's the same thing with firearms. Kids get curious about guns. Fortunately, I'm an NRA instructor, so it's easy for me. As soon as my daughter gets curious about guns, she's getting her first lessons, then off to the range we go. I want her to know how to use a firearm *proficiently*.

 

[Gunpowder]

Grumpy I actually cite for going five over. If its a residential and the posted speed limit is 25, if there is school in session it is 15. Going 5 over in that case results in a 55.00 cite. Same for construction zones, fines are doubled, so 5 over in a construction zone is usually automatically 150.00 cite. The chief and the city manager get quite upset if we let things like that go being that the state is broke.

There is one chief quality to being a police officer: Discretion. You have none of it. And you're not enforcing traffic laws to save lives, you're doing it to line the pockets of your city. That is despicable.

With that being said, the military taught me some very important things, and one was I am not a lawyer. My job is to enforce the law as was written to the letter.

Boy you must be fun at parties.

So long as you go by the book, you can't go wrong. I don't enforce the spirit of the law, but rather the letter. I have seen a lot of people turned from NCOs into airmen, and berets disappear because of underage drinking, DUI, and providing to a minor. I use the same integrity and standards I learned in SF and apply them to the civilian world. The fact that I'm still reserve still holds me to the standards my wing commander set as well as core values. Alcohol offenses have a zero tolerance policy, and will result in article 15 in the least. This includes providing a "sip" to a minor.

For someone that has served in the military, you have a surprisingly empty view of what America is and should be.

While each state may allow parents to be irresponsible, the federal government says the drinking age is 21. No state law supersedes federal law.

If my chief learned I was supplying alcohol to a minor, in the very least it would be days on the beach, an IA opened, and probably my patches stripped with my career in law enforcement over.

You really think the government has a place in telling people how to raise their kids?? Seig hiel, my friend. I hope you aren't a police officer for much longer, and while you are, I feel bad for the people of your community.

 

[whoaru99]

^^^
Haven't looked back through it all for a previous example, but it seems Godwin's Law held true once again.

 

[Airborneguy]

He's not a cop, just an MP (or whatever the AF calls them now).

 

[whoaru99]

SP, when I was in, but that was 20+ years ago.

 

[user 4295]

When I served we had both SP (Security Police) and LE (Law Enforcement) Not positive about the difference in their jurisdiction, but the SP's were typically in BDU's (battle dress uniforms) and tended to be on or around the flight line or guarding the alert facility. The LE's were dressed more like civilian police officers and patrolled base housing and the barracks.

 

[Lancer033]

I guess there is always the converse opinion...if it's not necessary wrong to do something the law forbids then it's not necessarily right to do something just because the law allows it.

Yep

Legality and Morality should be loosely connected, but they are not the same. Just because something is legal doesn't make it morally right, just that it's none of the government business. Cheating on your spouse would be a perfect example of something that is (and should be) perfectly legal but completely immoral. On the other hand, the example of founding this country which has already cited is a perfect example of an Illegal (treason & tax evasion just to start with), but moral action.

If this is a discussion on what should or should not be allowed, the legality of the situation should be nothing more than a foot note. Yes underage drinking is illegal (There are a few exceptions depending on where you're at). However, the drinking age being set at 21 is a joke. If you're old enough to join the military, you should be old enough to decide for yourself if you want to drink or not.

As for the moral issue, I see no issue with a kid drinking small quantities of alcohol under the supervision of his parents.

Oh, the Air Force just has Security Forces these days.

 

[broadbill]

Yep

However, the drinking age being set at 21 is a joke.

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

 

[Gunpowder]

Personally, I believe the drinking age should be 16 and the driving age should be 19. Let the damn kids drink & get over the novelty of it before they start driving. Besides, there are a million studies that show what terrible drivers kids are, sober or otherwise.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

However, the drinking age being set at 21 is a joke. If you're old enough to join the military, you should be old enough to decide for yourself if you want to drink or not.

While I agree with most of what you said, I think this is probably a pretty stupid idea. An 18 year old is in no way, shape or form, emotionally or mentally mature enough to make that decision. I say that as the parent of a 16 and a 13 year old, who are both allowed the occasional "sip" and will probably have a glass of champagne tonight.
If anything, they should raise the age in which a teenager can make decisions like joining the military or who to elect into office. Handing them the ability to legally consume simply because some people believe that 18 is when one magically becomes a mature adult is hard for me to wrap my head around.

 

[bergen69]

After a little research I found some interesting information.

Countries with 21 and over drinking age-
Indonesia, Kazakhstan, Oman, Pakistan, palou, Sri Lanka, U.S. (lots of places I wouldn't want to live!)

Countries with 16 and over drinking age (there are 16 in all)-
Austria, Belgium, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Switzerland...(

The average legal age in the world is 15.9.

 

[Catfish78]

After a little research I found some interesting information.

Countries with 21 and over drinking age-
Indonesia, Kazakhstan, Oman, Pakistan, palou, Sri Lanka, U.S. (lots of places I wouldn't want to live!)

Countries with 16 and over drinking age (there are 16 in all)-
Austria, Belgium, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Switzerland...(

The average legal age in the world is 15.9.

Huh? You have two ages, 21 and 16 listed. How can you have an average below the lowest number?

Or are these random items that are unconnected?

 

[DoubleAught]

After a little research I found some interesting information.

Countries with 21 and over drinking age-
Indonesia, Kazakhstan, Oman, Pakistan, palou, Sri Lanka, U.S. (lots of places I wouldn't want to live!)

Countries with 16 and over drinking age (there are 16 in all)-
Austria, Belgium, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Switzerland...(

The average legal age in the world is 15.9.

European countries don't make alcohol taboo like we do here. Most 16 yo's there have been drinking for years by the time they turn the legal drinking age.

 

[cluckk]

How long ago was that? I will concede that it may have been legal in the past, but I am almost positive that it is no longer the case. Once you turn 18, your parents can no longer give you permission to drink.

Wrong. At least in the eight states I've lived in.

I often tell people if you are old enough to carry a gun into combat, sign a binding contract or vote for our leaders, then you are old enough to choose for yourself whether to drink or not. If we deem 18-20 year-olds too immature for alcohol then neither should they be allowed to do any of the other things that adults do--such as vote, sign a contract, get married without parental permission or join the military. We need one age to determine adulthood and all adult activities should be tied to that age--whether it's 18 or 21 doesn't matter--just be consistent. Personally I'd love to see the voting age raised to 21.

 

[Airborneguy]

Is anyone familiar with the History and background of why the drinking age was changed to 21? That's probably an interesting story.

 

[DoubleAught]

Is anyone familiar with the History and background of why the drinking age was changed to 21? That's probably an interesting story.

Ultra-Christian politicians?

 

[Gunpowder]

Ultra-Christian politicians?

Like gun control, and the drug war, and every other issue out there, it has nothing to do with Christianity and EVERYTHING to do with controlling people and hoarding power & money. Whatever the reason was on the surface, it was done to either buy votes or line someone's pockets, or both... And not much has changed since.

 

[Zuljin]

I used to "check it" when grandpa would send me to get his Dixie from the fridge. We both knew what was up.

 

[Billy-Klubb]

is it really hard to see that those in powerful positions use fanatics as tools to get their job done? this is not 100% accurate 100% of the time, but it is a reoccurring theme in politics. we only have ourselves to blame (as a whole, not individuals) for buying their snake oil.

 

[rhoop]

My dad let me try beer when I was 5 or 6, I didn't like it and have never abused alcohol since because of my family's openness to it. My son is almost a year, and I'll let him sample every once in a while in a few years. I'm also going to make soda with him on brew days so we both have special drinks in the "drinks fridge".

Laws cannot make up for a lack of parenting. If parents were all present and engaged in raising their kids and teach how and why rather than make rules for everything, I think society would be much better off and age limits wouldn't even be an issue (Europe) . Seems we have a fairly balanced group, for the most part, here on HBT.

Moderation in everything. Drinking, speeding, enforcing the law . Excess of almost anything is a bad thing.

My 2 cents.

 

[Gunpowder]

My dad let me try beer when I was 5 or 6, I didn't like it and have never abused alcohol since because of my family's openness to it. My son is almost a year, and I'll let him sample every once in a while in a few years. I'm also going to make soda with him on brew days so we both have special drinks in the "drinks fridge".

Laws cannot make up for a lack of parenting. If parents were all present and engaged in raising their kids and teach how and why rather than make rules for everything, I think society would be much better off and age limits wouldn't even be an issue (Europe) . Seems we have a fairly balanced group, for the most part, here on HBT.

Moderation in everything. Drinking, speeding, enforcing the law . Excess of almost anything is a bad thing.

My 2 cents.

Truly, the devil rules in extremes

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Like gun control, and the drug war, and every other issue out there, it has nothing to do with Christianity and EVERYTHING to do with controlling people and hoarding power & money. Whatever the reason was on the surface, it was done to either buy votes or line someone's pockets, or both... And not much has changed since.

Right and wrong. It is about power and control, and religion is one of the tools used to maintain that power and control. Let's be real, we live in a state where the common religion plays heavily into the decisions made by our leaders. And the vast majority of the time, that religion is Christianity. Yes, it's all about power and control, and the way leaders discovered that they could exercise that power is by controlling the masses with their own religious beliefs. It's not a new concept, in actuality, the "Christian" religion is what it is today because the rulers in Rome realized that if they created a religion that would connect all the different belief systems in the empire, they could more easily control the people of the empire. That religion is the root for all the various Christian faiths today, Roman Catholicism.

 

[bergen69]

Huh? You have two ages, 21 and 16 listed. How can you have an average below the lowest number?

Or are these random items that are unconnected?

There are some countries with no drinking age laws...some are 16, 17, 18...etc. When its all added up you get 15.9. The vast majority are 18 or less.

 

[cluckk]

Is anyone familiar with the History and background of why the drinking age was changed to 21? That's probably an interesting story.

Actually, several states changed in 1984 when the Reagan administration threatened to withhold federal highway funds from any state not changing their drinking age to 21. I remember because I was 18 at the time.

 

[bergen69]

Right and wrong. It is about power and control, and religion is one of the tools used to maintain that power and control. Let's be real, we live in a state where the common religion plays heavily into the decisions made by our leaders. And the vast majority of the time, that religion is Christianity. Yes, it's all about power and control, and the way leaders discovered that they could exercise that power is by controlling the masses with their own religious beliefs. It's not a new concept, in actuality, the "Christian" religion is what it is today because the rulers in Rome realized that if they created a religion that would connect all the different belief systems in the empire, they could more easily control the people of the empire. That religion is the root for all the various Christian faiths today, Roman Catholicism.

I don't think religion had that much to do with it. The countries of Europe are "Christian" countries however most are 18 or less for drinking age. This government loves to legislate morality and fails at it everytime.