Do you really need a pid

[applescrap]

You can't swing a beer without hitting an ebiab thread. I went through it, the research, threads I started, and the build. Looking back, I wonder if a single breaker power switch and potentiometer would have been enough for me. No temperature probe (pid wont work without it, and I don't use it anyways), simple, less expensive, and pure analog control. I suspect, admittedly possibly incorrectly, that with a little experience, decent temperature control can be created by using a potentiometer and pump. If you want to mash at exact temperatures, step mash, like building stuff, or are using multiple pots, etc...full controller like mine is for you. But if you brew like me just insulating a kettle, passively maintaining heat, than perhaps you dont need a pid. Thoughts? Ultimately I decided on having more options in the future, but looking back making a simple controller for super cheap might have been my best bet.

 

[jrcrilly]

There is a step between a PID and a manual control. When I was doing proof-of-concept tests before building my HERMS/RIMS rig I evaluated the use of a simple thermostat controller (I used an Inkbird that was on hand but a $10 STC-1000 would do). It worked fine but, of course, overshoot and undershoot were there.

 

[applescrap]

@jrcrilly what is needed to make that work? I don't understand how you hook element up to it. Is that all you need?

 

[alphaomega]

Of course you don't need a PID. You don't need to heat the mash at all. Simplest thing to do is just mash in and leave it for an hour, and that will still work great.
Even with recirculation and heating, you don't need a PID, you can do manual control. Watch the thermometer and turn element on/off as needed.
But, it can be extremely useful to have some way to regulate power. Like if you want to put in say around 100W, just to counter losses and keep temperature stable.
And the nice thing is, you don't need to do better than 'guesstimate', since it takes a lot of energy to actually change the the temperature of water.
If I've done the metric to imperial conversion correctly, you'd need about 2.5W per gallon per hour to change the temperature 1 deg F.
So say you mash in with 4 gallons of water, and you'd expect to lose say 10F over an hour if you don't heat. 2.5 x 4 x 10 = 100W, so 100W will counter that loss. Now, if you'd only lose say 6F over an hour, you'd end up 4F above (after an hour), no big deal.
These numbers are to be taken with a grain of salt, but it shows the basic idea. To just approximatively maintain temp, you don't need more than away to manually set power, and a thermometer.
For power control Auber EZ boil is a simple solution (or you can build your own, timer/pwm and SSR) and it can also be a 'nice to have' just to adjust the intensity of the boil aswell.
So sure, manual control is absolutely feasible, maybe even desirable, depending on what you want/like.

 

[jrcrilly]

@jrcrilly what is needed to make that work? I don't understand how you hook element up to it. Is that all you need?

If the heating element is much over 1000W you would have to use the STC's relay output to key a relay (preferably a solid state one).

 

[applescrap]

Am I calling the potentiometer wrong? Basically just a power dial. Drew a picture, sorry its not very good. My hopes are that I can save someone a lot of money and time if they brew like me.

View attachment 1474812159159.jpg

 

[applescrap]

Of course you don't need a PID. You don't need to heat the mash at all. Simplest thing to do is just mash in and leave it for an hour, and that will still work great.
Even with recirculation and heating, you don't need a PID, you can do manual control. Watch the thermometer and turn element on/off as needed.
But, it can be extremely useful to have some way to regulate power. Like if you want to put in say around 100W, just to counter losses and keep temperature stable.
And the nice thing is, you don't need to do better than 'guesstimate', since it takes a lot of energy to actually change the the temperature of water.
If I've done the metric to imperial conversion correctly, you'd need about 2.5W per gallon per hour to change the temperature 1 deg F.
So say you mash in with 4 gallons of water, and you'd expect to lose say 10F over an hour if you don't heat. 2.5 x 4 x 10 = 100W, so 100W will counter that loss. Now, if you'd only lose say 6F over an hour, you'd end up 4F above (after an hour), no big deal.
These numbers are to be taken with a grain of salt, but it shows the basic idea. To just approximatively maintain temp, you don't need more than away to manually set power, and a thermometer.
For power control Auber EZ boil is a simple solution (or you can build your own, timer/pwm and SSR) and it can also be a 'nice to have' just to adjust the intensity of the boil aswell.
So sure, manual control is absolutely feasible, maybe even desirable, depending on what you want/like.

Sorry I explained it wrong. What you describe is what I meant. Just a simple manual control. Based on your math and discussion, it seems plausible, that a manual power control and pump could maintain a certain temp. if someone wanted.

 

[TallahasseeBrew]

using a potentiometer alone to control a decent sized heating element (2500 watt and up) is not feasible. The potentiometer would be massive, and expensive. I looked into this a while back, and found that what seemed to be the best bang for the buck for manual control is a SCR based voltage regulator. something like this https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00JJGMMPM/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20.

In this example the potentiometer is used to control a digital switch, which switches the SCR on and off, modulating power to the element, thus giving you variable control.

 

[applescrap]

using a potentiometer alone to control a decent sized heating element (2500 watt and up) is not feasible. The potentiometer would be massive, and expensive. I looked into this a while back, and found that what seemed to be the best bang for the buck for manual control is a SCR based voltage regulator. something like this https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00JJGMMPM/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20.

In this example the potentiometer is used to control a digital switch, which switches the SCR on and off, modulating power to the element, thus giving you variable control.

Thats nice. What else would one need to use with that?

 

[TallahasseeBrew]

if I remember, one end gets wired to a wall outlet plug, the other end goes to the element. probably should use a GFCI system somewhere. But I don't recall exactly, once I tabulated the initial investment of going electric, I decided to stick with propane.

 

[applescrap]

That and an element, whats not to like? I think I paid 125 for the 5500 watt element and 275 for a cheap controller. If you made your own heat stick and use that you could be brewing electric for well under 100. Discussing these options is kind of the point of this thread. Maybe it'll help somebody

 

[TX_Brewing]

There is a certain type of solid state relay that is made to work with potentiometers for heat control, I cant remember the name right now but I am pretty sure auber sells them.

 

[wilserbrewer]

While most will disagree with me, it is entirely possible to brew electric with nothing more than a gfi power source, a properly rated switch and en element sized for a nice boil at 100% power.

I've done it for years, long before there was any info on the web w/ people using pids, pumps etc etc, back in the early days of e brewing 8-10 years ago can't really remember.

7.75 gallon batch in a 15 gallon kettle with two 2000w 120v elements provides a nice boil at full power.

Heat strike water and manually monitor temp with handheld thermo. Dough in at proper strike temp and insulate kettle if BIAB or mash in a cooler. Remove bag or sparge and boil with 100% power....it really doesn't need to be complicated. If you search, there are many size elements available.

Certainly not the best way, but it can be done.

It does help to use a large kettle if your boil is a bit aggressive. Tailor recipe water volumes to boil off rather than vice versa.

A dead simple e brew still beats the pants off propane IME.

 

[TX_Brewing]

Here you go

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=53&products_id=353

 

[jekeane]

http://www.highgravitybrew.com/store/pc/EBC-II-with-Infinite-Power-Control-p3073.htm

I've taken one of these apart and I doubt that it would cost more than $150 to build with an element

This build also allows you to plug into a Johnson temperature controller and has a pump hook up if you want one.

 

[applescrap]

While most will disagree with me, it is entirely possible to brew electric with nothing more than a gfi power source, a properly rated switch and en element sized for a nice boil at 100% power.

I've done it for years, long before there was any info on the web w/ people using pids, pumps etc etc, back in the early days of e brewing 8-10 years ago can't really remember.

7.75 gallon batch in a 15 gallon kettle with two 2000w 120v elements provides a nice boil at full power.

Heat strike water and manually monitor temp with handheld thermo. Dough in at proper strike temp and insulate kettle if BIAB or mash in a cooler. Remove bag or sparge and boil with 100% power....it really doesn't need to be complicated. If you search, there are many size elements available.

Certainly not the best way, but it can be done.

It does help to use a large kettle if your boil is a bit aggressive. Tailor recipe water volumes to boil off rather than vice versa.

A dead simple e brew still beats the pants off propane IME.

I agree completely. I thought one, 120v element would boil 5 gallon batches at full power. Not to far off. I like the idea plug it in and forget it

 

[Bobby_M]

No you don't need a PID to brew electric. You don't even need an SSVR controlled by a pot as Mr. Wilser suggests. However, once you spend the money on hooking into 240v with GFCI (as you should) and making a box to plug the element into, it's mostly just illogical to not add another $50-100 in parts to make brew day easier. Yes, you can sit there and watch the temp and shut it off for the correct dough in temp. I can't do it. When I brewed manually, not a single brew day went by without me severely overshooting strike temps. With a temp controller (PID or EZboil), it would never happen. It hits the set point and waits for you or rings an alarm.

If you already commit to putting a huge hole in the pot for the element, what's another 1/2" hole for a temp probe? If you use a heat stick, you can integrate the RTD into the interior cavity of the heat stick.

I can appreciate when people are on really tight budgets and just need to make due with what they can afford. My argument is that temp control remains a very small portion of the overall investment to go electric safely. For that reason, I don't see much reason to skip it.

I would even argue that with a controller that has PV display (PID or EZboil post DSPR-1), you can skip the passive thermometer so that cost is already factored in.

You can also drive a stick shift car without brakes. I've done it but I don't recommend it.

 

[seabass07]

A 2000w element will definitely maintain a boil with a 5-6gal batch . But it will take forever to get there. Cheapest method would be to have two and switch one off when it's at a boil.

+1 on heating the mash being unneccesary. If you're mashing in your kettle, try adding some insulation around your kettle. That should be fine unless you're doing a bunch of different rests.

 

[wilserbrewer]

You can also drive a stick shift car without brakes. I've done it but I don't recommend it.

I thought that was what the E brake was for. Lol

Well put bobby, I agree.

 

[wilserbrewer]

A 2000w element will definitely maintain a boil with a 5-6gal batch.

This actually depends on kettle size, 2000w in a larger wider kettle won't really boil, maybe simmer....maybe. Kettle size / surface area has an influence on how many watts are required.

The Grainfather gets by w only 1800 and plenty of happy users....a miracle indeed, or maybe it is tall and narrow, and only about 8 gallons.

Is the Grainfather insulated or double wall? I'm curious.

 

[seabass07]

Worked for me with an 18" wide canning pot. I could bring 7.5 gal to a boil using the stove and a 2000w element. Turn off the stove and maintain a decent boil with just the element. Not a crazy rolling boil, but definitely a boil, which is the important part. Just my experience.

 

[Bobby_M]

The grainfather has one of those boils that you might be satisfied with if you never saw a propane boil before. The surface moves a bit and the wort gets to about 209F at sea level. Insulating makes a notable difference, but it never hits 212.

 

[jddevinn]

A PID and temperature probe can be had for less than $30..... why make the process more difficult by not including it?!?

 

[applescrap]

A PID and temperature probe can be had for less than $30..... why make the process more difficult by not including it?!?

To me it's the exact opposite. Using a pid, controlling it, wiring it, drilling a hole for it, understanding it, paying for it, etc...is much more complicated than turning a knob imo.

 

[applescrap]

No you don't need a PID to brew electric. You don't even need an SSVR controlled by a pot as Mr. Wilser suggests. However, once you spend the money on hooking into 240v with GFCI (as you should) and making a box to plug the element into, it's mostly just illogical to not add another $50-100 in parts to make brew day easier. Yes, you can sit there and watch the temp and shut it off for the correct dough in temp. I can't do it. When I brewed manually, not a single brew day went by without me severely overshooting strike temps. With a temp controller (PID or EZboil), it would never happen. It hits the set point and waits for you or rings an alarm.

If you already commit to putting a huge hole in the pot for the element, what's another 1/2" hole for a temp probe? If you use a heat stick, you can integrate the RTD into the interior cavity of the heat stick.

I can appreciate when people are on really tight budgets and just need to make due with what they can afford. My argument is that temp control remains a very small portion of the overall investment to go electric safely. For that reason, I don't see much reason to skip it.

I would even argue that with a controller that has PV display (PID or EZboil post DSPR-1), you can skip the passive thermometer so that cost is already factored in.

You can also drive a stick shift car without brakes. I've done it but I don't recommend it.

As always poignant, brilliant and logical. You are a master of electric brewing and taught me everything I know pretty much. Driving a car without brakes though, c'mon man. Obviously, I'm not saying you are wrong . I do think you need to reconsider some of your thinking on this issue.

The problem is its not just about money. To me, sticking a temperature probe in, at pretty much the exact time it always hits strike temp isn't a big deal. Also, I can probe all over the pot. Even if I used the PID probe, I would still probably check around the pot. If it's at the bottom near the element how accurate is that near the top, and if it's at the top how accurate is that near the bottom. Is stirring it to make sure it's accurate any easier than just taking a probe in the middle.

Also where do you mount it where it's not in the way? What if it fails? The pid wont work without it. The pins in the rtd plug aren't necessarily rock solid. Its another cord, it requires a bigger box, and it also requires learning how to use the pid. All the above vs. turn the knob. Its potentially a lot more money speaking of money. And its potentially a lot bigger. Also its probably 2x harder to wire. One knob, one switch, simple control. If you are not recirculating with a pump and you dont mind sticking a probe in the beer, what is the advantage? Its more expensive, harder to use, harder to wire, puts holes in your kettle, requires technical learning, is a potential fail spot, requires a bigger control panel, and could be in the way affecting insulation of kettle. This thread wasn't meant to become a debate which is better. I think it's a good option and looking back I would have gone that route. You disagree fine. Agree or disagree a simple controller or as stated above no controller are options that will work.

 

[Bobby_M]

I didn't read any insults at all. You asked for thoughts and I gave them. You know, this is a discussion forum where people discuss pros and cons of different things.

You're absolutely right about the wiring being harder but when it's done, every single brew day is a little easier. Everything is a point of failure. You can fry your SSR at any time and that includes the potentiometer controlled SSVR. I wouldn't run an electric rig without a spare RTD or SSR on hand, but that's similar to making sure you have a spare full propane tank.

PID wiring is not difficult and there are a hundred people on the forum willing to help. A static vessel will have some hot spotting for sure and it may lead to a little over/under shoot on the set temp but it's a few degrees. When I manually controlled my heat, I'd overshoot a 170F strike water goal to a full boil where I'd have to dilute with more cold tap water to be able to dough in. PID programming is moderately complicated but again, a bunch of people run the same PID model and give you the exact programming they use. Even better, the new Auber Ezboil DSPR120 makes wiring easier and programming is VERY easy.

SSVR ( the box controlled with a knob) still has an SSR inside the box and they need to connect to a heatsink also. The box that would include the PID or EZ boil would probably double the box size, that that's really just a 6x6x4 box. The other slight issue with SSVR control is that it's not a linear 0-100% power control. The adjustability between 20-80% power is really tough to nail down because small knob movements make big changes while the adjustment from 80% to98% takes a lot of knob movement. It's not a huge deal but in case anyone didn't know.

It's not really like driving a car without brakes. It's just not taking advantage of tools available. Everyone has the idea of the right kind of automation for them. For example, I will never brew on a picobrew even if the beer is tremendous.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Running electric to set strike temp requires a pump, running manually requires stirring with a paddle prior to checking temp.

Single vessel doesn't require a pump IMO.
Add a pump to the list if you want your strike temp automated and waiting for you using a pid.

 

[applescrap]

@Bobby M, You know I respect the heck out of you and enjoy your knowledge. Your work is awesome and I swear by your equipment. This isn't the first or last time we will disagree about this topic though. I think you mention a really great point about everyone having their own idea of automation. I see beautiful automation work, where a simple turn of the ball valve will do. I guess we are all on a spectrum somewhere from the picobrew to a kettle over a wood fire.

 

[seabass07]

The grainfather has one of those boils that you might be satisfied with if you never saw a propane boil before. The surface moves a bit and the wort gets to about 209F at sea level. Insulating makes a notable difference, but it never hits 212.

That's a matter of preference. I have a propane burner, but prefer to use the stove and do a light non violent boil. I've done it both ways and I like the final product better with the light boil. Less energy, less boil off. Just my opinion. Obviously for a 10 gallon batch the stove won't work, but I still keep it at a low boil.

 

[stamandster]

You don't need a PID to brew beer. Though using a PID for HERMS/RIMS makes life easier and less prone to error. You can't check temps and adjust as quickly as a PID can.

HOWEVER, If your just doing a single infusion mash, one temp, insulated MT and even if you sparge (fly or batch) you don't necessarily need a PID. A simple PWM or SSVR would work to heat strike or sparge water to temp or wort in BK.

It really all depends on your process.

 

[lschiavo]

I believe beer was made before electricity, propane and even thermometers existed.

 

[stamandster]

I believe beer was made before electricity, propane and even thermometers existed.

But was a it as good or diverse or repeatable?

 

[alphaomega]

There's been a lot of healthy discussion in this thread since I was here last, and many well reasoned arguments.
I agree with pretty much everything said.
I just want to add that something like the EZBoil (or DSPR1) is a much better choice than an SSVR.
An SSVR is basically a dimmer, and will produce an awful lot of electromagnetic noise. The knob will also control the power in a very non linear way. Finally, the pot will carry mains voltage, which is also not so nice.
An SSR and a controller (such as the EZBoil or the DSPR1 or even a cheap eBay PWM generator that can produce a frequency that is at most around 1Hz) is a better choice.
It not that an SSVR won't work. It will, it is simply not the best tool available.

 

[applescrap]

Apparently the man who made mine and this one passed away. Sad to hear. Googled dspr1, yes that looks perfect and gives many ssr choices.

View attachment 1474896898331.jpg

 

[gnef]

I went the simple route with my electric setup. I made two small control panels out of the plastic large boxes from still dragon. One has their DIY controller kit which is their packaged SSVR setup. I believe the rheostat does not carry mains voltage, the resistance itself is what controls the SSVR, if I remember correctly. I use that for the boil kettle with 5500W element.

I also have a basic temperature controller for my HLT instead of a PID. It took me a long time to find a 220v Fahrenheit controller, and it ended up being shipped directly from China. I use that to feed into a 40amp SSR which controls the 5500W element in the HLT.

Both relays are on heatsinks with fans pulling air across them.

I really like my setup, and enjoy the simplicity of it.

 

[alphaomega]

I believe the rheostat does not carry mains voltage, the resistance itself is what controls the SSVR, if I remember correctly.

I dare you to lick the terminals of the pot when plugged in
No, really don't do that.
No matter how hard you believe, the pot will still carry mains, and needs to be sized and insulated accordingly.
I'm glad you're happy with your setup, but still, if someone is in the market for a power controller for their boil kettle, an SSR and slow PWM signal generator, is the better choice.

 

[BeardedBrews]

Man Apple, you're all over on this topic...

I've always been confused by the way people phrase this question when the basics are always the same:
"Do I really have to buy X-Y-Z component? Couldn't I just get by without it?"

This question isn't unique to electric, which is why it always confuses me when people who have done stove-top or turkey burner miss the point. You need a heat source, and a way to turn it on and off. After that, anything more is strictly there to make your brew day easier.


You could JB-Weld a $15 range cord directly onto the contacts on a $15 ebay element then screw it into a hole in your kettle with a $3 nut/o-ring and a bit of solder for the ground wire. Control the element by plugging and un-plugging it in a GFCI outlet on the wall. Done. This would be the equivalent of having a turkey burner with a non-adjustable regulator. Full Blast and Off is all you get, and that's all you need to make beer.

In reality, most of us appreciate the ability to turn down the power on our kettle. The most basic approach here is to get a SSVR and a dial which will make your element work like a turkey burner with an adjustable regulator or your stove-top.

Since we're talking about things we like, it's also nice to know the temperature in the kettle. Use your old-fashioned hands and hold a kitchen thermometer in there, or wire a thermocouple into a digital display, it hardly matters.

And then we get into the "well, but wouldn't it be cool if?" territory. Wouldn't it be cool if my kettle would just go to whatever temperature I wanted and then stay there. Grab the tail end of that thermocouple you bought, and poke it into a controller (PID, EZBoil, PLC, Arduino, PC, STC-1000, Ranco, anything) and now you are automated. You'll still need a basic SSR to connect and disconnect the power when the controller says so.

 

[tellyho]

Didn't read whole thread, but I run my e-kettle with a pulse width modulator. Did not design circuit myself - have electrical engineer father. Simpler than PID (which I DO have on my espresso maker), but you have to keep an eye on things. Less autonomous.

 

[mrveeno]

What you need is a VARIAC, not a potentiometer, to reduce voltage to the heating coil. I don't know all the fancy acronyms you all use like PID, HLT or VSSR. I guess you pros know them by heart.

 

[Bobby_M]

Solid State Variable Relay is basically an adjustable SCR that limits the AC waveform to deliver less than peak power. It's the functional modern solution to that VARIAC (speaking of fancy acronyms).

A lot of the discussion about need vs want vs overkill comes down to perceived effort and cost matched up against utility. I doubt anyone would brew on an EZboil based controller and later determine that it's a waste of technology and makes brewing harder or less enjoyable. It's like a manual power knob with the added (and optional mind you) temp control and digital temperature readout. It's been mentioned before, but it's a minimal increment cost over the most rudimentary power control devices.

If it matter at all, I don't sell controllers yet so I have no financial gain in promoting any of this stuff.