Do we "think" too much about brewing beer?

[Brettomomyces]

Most of you play with too many knobs at the same time. Making great beer is not nearly as complicated as flying a Learjet, and even that can be done by an idiot (trust me, I know a guy who's a Learjet pilot).

I used to have zero knobs, now I have a bunch. It makes me happy and once I learned how to use all the knobs it's a joy to brew with. But I just cook food for a living and don't fly any jets.

 

[worlddivides]

Two quick and dirty comments.
1. Experimentation really means controlling everything but for one variable and checking how that one variable affects the result. You cannot really "experiment" when you are (as someone else said above) twiddling many knobs at the same time. That is playing not experimenting.

I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point. I see adding new ingredients to a cake (or the same ingredients that were used previously in different amounts) as experimental. I see the exact same practices in regards to beer as experimental (for example, adding bitter orange peels instead of sweet orange peels or whatever).

The very minute and minor aspects such as mashing with a 1 degree difference from last time or for ten more minutes are not things that I have any interest "experimenting" with. I'm not going to say they aren't "experimental" because they are, but I'm simply not interested in experimenting with those kinds of things.

I guess if we use one approach as the "scientist approach" and the other as the "cook approach," I would fall under the "cook approach."

 

[Yooper]

Making a truly excellent beer requires either an extraordinary amount of luck or a great amount of attention to many small details.

Most of us aren't that lucky.

I've made "good" beer right from the beginning. But a truly award winning excellent beer that I've repeated wasn't an accident.

I don't sweat the small stuff- but what I consider "small stuff" others might consider nonconsequential or very important.

When you first start brewing, the results are actually not that good and it's not that obvious to the brewer who is a bit proud. Sometimes you get lucky and it's better than average. It takes a little more attention to detail and best practices to do it well. The OCD behavior is more of a choice. Some people just love getting into the gears and talking about it all day and that's part of the fun of the hobby for them (me).

I'm like many others- I really believe that anything worth doing is doing well. I don't make anything or do anything half-assed, not at work or in my personal life. I'm a perfectionist in most ways, and pay attention to detail. Others are far more laid back and relaxed about things like cleaning their house, or cooking, or work, or brewing.

To each his own. I've had great beers from those neurotic engineer types, but not so much from the "aw, a little of this or that and who cares about the details" types. I've judged in local, regional, and national competitions. I've had a LOT of bad beer that the brewers thought was great. They just didn't pick up on the band-aid aroma, the astringency of a certain beer, the fruitiness of a too-high fermentation temperature, etc.

I call it the "ugly baby syndrome". Just like lots of parents coo at their really ugly baby but see it as beautiful, many homebrewers (and pros too, actually) think their beers are better than they are. If someone wins a major competition, then the beers may be better than the average, but I've had a ton of bad beer sent to me over the years that the brewer thought was great.

Conversely, a couple of brewers have sent me beer to help them find the flaws in them- but they were truly excellent beers! Those types are overly critical of their brewing. But most are not. Most think their beers are much better than they actually are.


The thing is, if a brewer is happy with his method and loves the results- who cares? You drink your beer, and I'll drink mine, and we'll all be happy.

 

[Yooper]

Topic for discussion...I mean, do we unnecessarily obsess over the minutia of beer making...temps, times, numbers, etc...

I've not been brewing beer that long, so, I'm no expert by any means...I'm quite mindful of sanitation, but other than that, I find beer making to be quite easy...I guess I just don't sweat the small stuff.

I follow directions when I brew. Put it away. After a couple of weeks, bottle it. Put it away. After a couple of weeks, put it in the refrigerator. Drink it. Make some more.

So far....I haven't had a problem with a batch yet. I just don't see that if OG is supposed to be 1.060 and it comes out as 1.055 to be that big of deal. If I get 47 bottles instead of 50 out of a batch...nothing to worry about.

Any discussion?

Greg

I'm not picking on you- but one of the "details" is making the recipe and formulating the method. If you're "following directions", that's great and it's a great thing to be enjoying that beer; but it's not exactly difficult to do that. The details may be in there, but just not done by you! Just a thought!

 

[Ntwkdsnr]

As a new home brewer, this is a great thread. I'm mostly a technical person that loves details but, there must be a middle road here. I have seen the rabbit hole and I'm not going to fall into it just yet. I want to keep it fun and create great stuff that myself and my family can enjoy!

 

[BigJack]

Brewing is like cooking. If you have a knack for it, a home cook can improvise, relax, play around and make good food. You might even occasionally make great food. Once in a while, you might even turn out world class food. You simply won't make the same food twice. Ever.

If that's cool with you, then RDWHAHB.

On the other hand, if you demand consistency, you're going to have to learn to enjoy minutia.

 

[mjdonnelly68]

I've posted about this before, I'm convinced there are distinct phases to the home brew hobby.

When I tasted my first few batches of homebrew, I thought they all tasted great (though I'm sure they didn't). My excitement compounded by my lack of knowledge made every new batch a revelation. I'll call this the "Holy **** I Brewed This' phase. I didn't sweat the small stuff, I didn't need to. Every batch I brewed turned out great. How could it not - I brewed it?

This honeymoon period lasted about six batches. During those initial batches, while I was brewing and amazing myself, I was also learning about the brewing process. I was buying books and reading forums and generally filling my noggin with as much brewing knowledge (right and wrong) as I could get my eyeballs on. This is where things started to get a little more complicated.

Now knowledge is like light - it can be good and bad. Throw on a light in a dark room and suddenly you can see everything you were missing before - that's good. But suddenly you can also see that you've been wearing your underwear on your head - that's bad. So once I stepped into the blinding light of brewing knowledge, I could no longer ignore the fact that I had been brewing with my underwear on my head. I now knew about original gravity and final gravity and flocculation and attenuation and acetaldehyde and diacetyl and fruity esters. Fruity esters for f**k's sake! Why hadn't anyone warned me about the fruity esters? This is when I started to really sweat the small stuff.

Never again would I be able to brew in blissful ignorance. Now I was blinders off and constantly watching my temperature and my times and my ph levels and my mash efficiency and my brewhouse efficiency (though admittedly I still don't understand the difference). I was still enjoying myself, but some of the bloom was off the brewing rose. I was on high alert. Brewing disaster could befall me at any moment. I was always one degree or dirty hydrometer away from brewing tragedy. And the beers I brewed past batch six didn't taste as good to me. I could taste each missed mash temp, each boil over, each gravity point missed. I still enjoyed the beers, but not quite as much. The honeymoon was over. I'll call this the "What'd You Mess Up on This One" phase.

This period lasted at least another 20 batches (and to be honest still reverberates today). It's only recently that I've balanced 'learned enough' and 'brewed enough' to the point of relative parity. I still know when I screw things up, but I've brewed enough to know what's a catastrophe and what's not. I'll compare it to being a adult. After almost 30 years of living on my own, I've finally arrived at the point where when an alarm goes off - I know when to panic, and when to reach for a fresh nine volt battery. When I brew, I'm usually reaching for a fresh battery. I'll call this the "Don't Sweat It But Don't Bet It (Yet)" phase, and it's very nice. I make drinkable beer most of the time and I make award winning beer some of the time.

This is the phase I'm currently in. I'm relaxed enough to enjoy brewing again at a high level, but I'm still cognoscente of the fact that I'm living and learning. I now know what I don't know - and I can still taste that in my beers. But I'm less worried about it and I can finally pull out the evidence of my beer's gradual improvement. Each batch gets a little better, every beer get's a little closer to where I now know I need to go. I'm content but not satisfied. I don't sweat the small stuff as much because I now know better which stuff to sweat.

So to answer your original question: home brewing is a journey and I think everyone needs to pass through that phase where they think to much about brewing beer. I'd agree that you can't stay at that point forever without losing your mind, but you should spend enough time there to get directions to where you ultimately want to end up.

Cheers!

 

[grathan]

Some beer kits don't have the greatest of instructions.

 

[jbaysurfer]

Making a truly excellent beer requires either an extraordinary amount of luck or a great amount of attention to many small details.

Most of us aren't that lucky.

Can I use this in my sig line? Outstanding.

 

[rekoob]

why is it when I open a thread and just start getting into the first few posts I don't realize it's going to take me 15 minutes to read it. Hell, I forgot the OP questions?

I think some great posts already and some of them nail it right. That being said, I love brewing and beer in general so if someone wants to talk beer/brewing I'm in.

It took years for me to get the item and the final stand built that I have now, it's not the stand I wanted 14 years ago, I thought I knew what I wanted but when it came down to putting welder to metal I had gone through four or five revisions of what i wanted. Maybe I learned a few things along the way and knowledge of what I was doing or thought i was doing changed how I wanted to get there. By "getting there" I mean brewing a beer I can enjoy and would serve to anyone wanting to try it AND if I liked it to repeat it.
Now do I brew the same thing more than once... Not really. I always wanted a Hellis as my always on tap beer, I have made some nice ones but when I get the right one I'll know it and then I am going to want to reproduce it.
I make all kinds of stuff, I like them all for the most part and I go on kicks of a style for a few batches maybe fine tuning it along the way. I normally don't have two kegs the same although I have had the same style but not the same beer.
So in the end, my jouney to fine the house beer is really just starting and I have enjoyed the long road to get me here and look forward to the road ahead. I still have lots to learn.

 

[jbaysurfer]

There are different kinds of experimentation, creative and scientific are two of them. Scientific experimentation leads to repeatable results. Creative experimentation leads to serendipitous results. Both have their rewards, just depends on what you're looking to get out of it.

 

[bernardsmith]

I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point. I see adding new ingredients to a cake (or the same ingredients that were used previously in different amounts) as experimental. I see the exact same practices in regards to beer as experimental (for example, adding bitter orange peels instead of sweet orange peels or whatever).

The very minute and minor aspects such as mashing with a 1 degree difference from last time or for ten more minutes are not things that I have any interest "experimenting" with. I'm not going to say they aren't "experimental" because they are, but I'm simply not interested in experimenting with those kinds of things.

I guess if we use one approach as the "scientist approach" and the other as the "cook approach," I would fall under the "cook approach."

I don't think that we are disagreeing. When I say that experimentation means keeping everything the same but one variable that variable does not need to be tiny and in fact should not be something so insignificant that it is likely to make no significant impact. For example, I recently made several batches of a beer and changed only the base malts - in each batch - 2 Row, Maris Otter , Pale Ale. The same weight of grains, the same specialty malts, the same hops, the same volumes of water, the same amount of time in the primary etc etc. I wanted to see how this would affect the color and flavor and mouthfeel. Adding sweet or bitter orange peels would be a similar kind of experiment...

 

[Yooper]

There are different kinds of experimentation, creative and scientific are two of them. Scientific experimentation leads to repeatable results. Creative experimentation leads to serendipitous results. Both have their rewards, just depends on what you're looking to get out of it.

And I think that people should be very happy with their own choices.

The thing is, saying that brewing is "easy" when someone is making premade kits is like saying that cooking is easy, and using Betty Crocker cake mixes.

Sure, that's pretty easy.

Kit brewing is great for those who choose to do it. But it's not really comparable to the techniques done by people who formulate the water chemistry, the recipe, the fermentation schedule, and so on. It's not that one is necessarily better than the other, as each brewer can decide how much work they want to put into it- but it's definitely not the same thing.

 

[jbaysurfer]

And I think that people should be very happy with their own choices.

The thing is, saying that brewing is "easy" when someone is making premade kits is like saying that cooking is easy, and using Betty Crocker cake mixes.

Sure, that's pretty easy.

Kit brewing is great for those who choose to do it. But it's not really comparable to the techniques done by people who formulate the water chemistry, the recipe, the fermentation schedule, and so on. It's not that one is necessarily better than the other, as each brewer can decide how much work they want to put into it- but it's definitely not the same thing.

Totally agreed.

 

[cannman]

It seems to come down to this:

or this

Is one better than the other? I think not; however, one or the other is more likely to be in line with your own philosophy and goals regarding brewing.

I like to think that I have both going on at my home...

 

[GHBWNY]

I think of brewing beer as a [very humbling] cooperative venture between myself and Nature. I think I appreciated this fact best at my very first brew, marveling at how this natural process ultimately produced a delicious homemade beer in spite of the fact I didn't know what I was doing. Grains, hops, yeast, heat, time --- all natural ingredients, that when combined in a way only Nature itself can best dictate, produces something enjoyable that can't be achieved by any other means. If I've learned anything in the few short months I've been brewing, it's that making good beer isn't as much a matter of "control over" the process as it is cooperation with the process.

 

[Devin]

Interesting thread. I think that I can relate to some of mjdonnelly's comments. I started out thinking that my stuff was amazing. Then I transitioned into all grain, and the next few seemed good. Then I started trying to build my own water profile in my hunt to get the hop signature that I wanted in my beers. That is when things started seeming "not good". So, in my case, I didn't really over-think things until some of my beers turned out not-so-good. Then I went into over-drive regarding obsessing over things to try and figure out this common issue I have been having with my pale ales.

In short, I do think that we tend to overthink things. Especially when things don't turn out the way that we think they should have.

 

[Singletrack]

No.

This is a hobby, and we can think about it as much or as little as we want. It makes me happy to think about it a lot, but maybe less than others, and that's okay. RDWHAHB is great for Charlie, but I'm not wired that way. Sometimes I experiment, and sometimes I want to hit the numbers. I choose which things I want to obsess over, and which to play fast and loose. But I'm not likely to ever RDW. (I will HAHB.) Do what makes you happy.

However, I am baffled by the approach taken by many brewers to sanitation. Are you really in this hobby because you like to obsessively clean stuff all the time? I'm talking about cleaning and sanitizing and sterilizing things that are already clean and sanitized. If so, carry on, but take it easy on the new brewers, e.g. a "slight" infection may steal your hop aroma. Really?

 

[redwing_al]

great thread.. there are two schools of thought here...

1. My wife thinks I think too much about brewing beer
2. sometimes I over-think my beers brewing

As for #2, I think we can all make truly excellent beer by keeping it simple. More complexity doesn't necessarily make a better product. As your palate gets more refined, you will always find something wrong in the pursuit of excellence.

As for me, I need to get back to basics as my continual teaking has taken me too far away from the goal. There is a Lean Kaizen in my near future...

 

[smccarter]

This post isn't meant to sound harsh. Please don't read it that way.

It is a hobby... And each individual has the luxury of putting into it whatever they want.

I'm not concerned about whether some folks agonize over the details. I don't. What I do find difficult is having to read thread after thread about what we - as home brewers - MUST do, and how we're wrong for not doing certain things.

I say... it's a hobby. Lighten up. Have fun counting yeast cells and spending a few thousand dollars on your rig. I'm happy for you and genuinely wish you well, but please... let me do it my way. I'm appreciative of your advice, but what is being poured out of my bottles and kegs speaks for itself.

Agonize over the details and enjoy yourself. In the mean-time, I'll consider briefly that I didn't make my OG on the batch of beer that me and all of my friends are really enjoying. Then I'll pour another one and forget all about the 2 points I missed.

 

[Brettomomyces]

However, I am baffled by the approach taken by many brewers to sanitation. Are you really in this hobby because you like to obsessively clean stuff all the time? I'm talking about cleaning and sanitizing and sterilizing things that are already clean and sanitized. If so, carry on, but take it easy on the new brewers, e.g. a "slight" infection may steal your hop aroma. Really?

There is no such thing as a "slight" infection.

Editing this to add to that...

If your beer gets infected, you've now got a living culture of bugs in there, intentionally or not, and they're gonna mess up your beer. Unless you're souring it, but thats another story. A lot of us strive to be meticulously clean and sanitized because infections suck. You'll get one eventually if you haven't yet. And when you get one, hope that it sticks to that one fermenter. An infected piece in your brewery can be a nightmare, leading down a path of bad beers.

 

[dobes]

I think if my wife ever told me I think/talk to much about beer then I would agree. But to this day she has yet to say that. As much as I talk and involve myself in the hobby she supports me and is actually more and more interested and gets involved in the hobby.

A lot of my time goes towards this hobby. When I am out with my friends I am talking about brewing/beer if somebody is willing. People tell me I'm not the most talkative person but as soon as you bring up beer/brewing they can't get me to shut up. I don't think its a bad thing its what I enjoy.

As a brewer I think at times I obsess about details. Many of those obsessions ended up in understanding how to produce beers the way i want to. Then i try and figure out a way to control that part of the process so i don't have to obsess about it any more. I can control it easily and it is no longer an obsession but just a part of the process that is easy to control.

Now I have a 10 gallon herms system and i really enjoy brewing on it. The control i have is great and i can do some precise brews on it. But recently, not that i needed much, but i got some equipment to do BIAB on my kitchen stove. The only reason is cause i want to be able to make a quick beer and can still spend time with my family, especially in the winter. I know i will be able to make a good beer with it, and that's all i want.

I'd like to keep typing but i got 10 gallons of beer to keg and i got to get my hops and grain weighed out for tomorrow so i can do my first BIAB in the kitchen.

 

[Singletrack]

If your beer gets infected, ...they're gonna mess up your beer. You'll get one eventually if you haven't yet.

...not that you bear any ill will, right? :smack:

Are you saying that every brewer must eventually get an infection? If so, I'm fairly confident you are wrong about that. And if not, then how do you know I will get one? Wrong again. :smack::smack:

Anyway, I think you are missing the point. The idea that "a little bit of infection" causes all sorts of woes is pervasive in this forum, as if sanitation alone could elevate your beer from mediocre to fantastic. I'm suggesting that those brewers may want to start obsessing about some of the other things required to brew great beer -- in addition to basic sanitation.

 

[Kee]

The thing to remember is to brew to your own goals. There is room for all of us here. In fact that is what makes these forums so interesting. It does turn into a competition sometimes. (What? Your mash temp was 1/2 degree off? And you are still using the Annihilator 8000? You have to get the Annihilator 9000 to make beer properly).

 

[riderkb]

I've gone through all the stages described here. Starting out very self- encouraging then realizing that my beer was not good compared to what was available at a pub. After spending some time working for a small brewery I realized that most commercial beer is flawed in one way or another. My goal now is making beer that pleases SWMBO more than the commercial beers we can get. That is easy.

 

[scdigger]

When I posted my random musing yesterday, I never imagined it would take off like it did...lot's of great comments on BOTH sides of the fence done in a very civilized way! I think mjdonnelly68 made the best reply of all...I imagine I'm in one of those early stages!

Just FYI...I teach in the English department, so, I'm no engineer. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a sloppy brewer. I do things right...I KNOW there is a bad batch coming my way somewhere down the road. I KNOW as I grow as a brewer things will get more complicated, and yes, I'll start worrying about certain things! I have a LONG LONG way to go and much to learn.

Thanks for all the great replies!

Greg
Cheers!

 

[Brettomomyces]

...not that you bear any ill will, right? :smack:

Are you saying that every brewer must eventually get an infection? If so, I'm fairly confident you are wrong about that. And if not, then how do you know I will get one? Wrong again. :smack::smack:

Anyway, I think you are missing the point. The idea that "a little bit of infection" causes all sorts of woes is pervasive in this forum, as if sanitation alone could elevate your beer from mediocre to fantastic. I'm suggesting that those brewers may want to start obsessing about some of the other things required to brew great beer -- in addition to basic sanitation.

No no, I wasn't trying to "curse" you with an infection. And must is a strong word too. It happens...in the same way that "everyone" will eventually get a speeding ticket. I've been homebrewing 10 years no and I've gotten I think 2 infected batches, and the occassional bad bottle. It sucks when it happens, and I would never want anyone to have to deal with it.

Infections do cause all sorts of woes. Proper sanitation is not going to help a bad brewer make good beer, but poor sanitation will make a great brewer brew terrible beer.

 

[worlddivides]

I'm 32 and I've never gotten a driving ticket of any kind.

I likewise don't expect to ever get an infected batch. In fact, I'll make sure that I never do. Among careful brewers, I don't think that's an unusual thing. I saw a video on YouTube a little while back where the guy mentioned that he had done just under 1000 batches and still hadn't gotten a single infection, but that just emphasizes the importance of sanitation and carefulness. It's one reason why I never drink while brewing.

 

[Yooper]

When I posted my random musing yesterday, I never imagined it would take off like it did...lot's of great comments on BOTH sides of the fence done in a very civilized way! I think mjdonnelly68 made the best reply of all...I imagine I'm in one of those early stages!

Just FYI...I teach in the English department, so, I'm no engineer. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a sloppy brewer. I do things right...I KNOW there is a bad batch coming my way somewhere down the road. I KNOW as I grow as a brewer things will get more complicated, and yes, I'll start worrying about certain things! I have a LONG LONG way to go and much to learn.

Thanks for all the great replies!

Greg
Cheers!

We are all in different places. Some brew kits, and some of us make those recipes for the kits.

We can all go as deep into the hobby as we chose, from those "betty crocker" types (kits) to the all-grain water chemistry HERMS nerds that make commercial quality or better beer. There is room for all of us.

 

[Dopeybrew]

I don't think that people think too much about the hobby. Most people put the thought that they want to into the product.

Some of us want to make good beer with the occasional great one in there. And there isn't a whole lot of "thought" that is needed for that.

Others want the same product every batch. And with that there is a certain level of OCD that is required for that.

It all comes down to what you want out of beer.