Do I really need a starter (Stone Ruination)?

[Logzor]

I am going to brew a Stone Ruination clone, which calls for a 2L starter of WLP002.

I saved a TON of this yeast from two 5g batches of beer. So since I've got gobs of it, can't I just dump more in rather than make a starter?

 

[Yankeehillbrewer]

It depends on how old that yeast is. That will determine the viability.

 

[Logzor]

The yeast is 1 month old.

 

[Piratwolf]

You don't HAVE to, but once I started it became impossible for me not to use 'em. You know there's healthy, viable yeast and you have it working when it hits the wort.

 

[chiteface]

Are you talking about using yeast slurry from an old cake? If so it depends on what kind of beer you made prior, like how high was the abv, we're they dark beers, did you rinse the yeast and are you sure all your samples are clean.

 

[Yankeehillbrewer]

The yeast is 1 month old.

Then I would definitely make a starter. But also consider what Chiteface said, all great things to think about whan re-pitching. If I repitch a yeast I try to time it so that when I repitch it's either that same day or within a couple of days. If I can't do that then I prefer to just get a fresh pack and make a starter.

 

[Logzor]

I have yeast (the same strain) from a pale ale as well as an oatmeal stout. Neither were over 5% ABV. I washed the yeast as shown in the yeast washing thread. So it's not just slurry from a yeast cake.

I have the yeast in a quart jar, could I just add some sugar to it, shake it up, and let it go overnight? I don't have any extra malt extract.

If I pitch and it doesn't work can I just re-pitch a starter later?

 

[BenS]

Just pitch it! Pitch it all. More than you normally would. Don't start it, just pitch it.

 

[Logzor]

Just pitch it! Pitch it all. More than you normally would. Don't start it, just pitch it.

Exactly what I was hoping to hear LOL

 

[Piratwolf]

Just pitch it! Pitch it all. More than you normally would. Don't start it, just pitch it.

I disagree with this almost completely. Over pitching can be detrimental, just as under pitching can. Check out a yeast calculator website and at least get in the right neighborhood.

 

[chiteface]

I would disagree too. Mrmalty.com has a super easy calculator and it's free.at least take a look. Also To achieve the clean favors of a Stone brew, I would leave out the yeast from the stout, otherwise you may get a slightly smoky/chocolate flavor.

 

[Logzor]

OK so how do I calculate what would be equivalent to a 2L starter?

OG will be 1.072, 5g batch.

I assume a starter creates a lot more yeast cells right? In mrmalty I see how I can use slurry to calculate how much I need. Are they considering washed slurry? This is washed yeast.

 

[Yankeehillbrewer]

Here's what I would do....

Since a White Labs vile is 35mls, I would take that amount of your washed yeast and create a proper starter from that, or you could do 70mls and do a smaller starter. That will get you in the ballpark of the correct amount of yeast and you know that it will be good and healthy. If anything it will be a slight overpitch, which is fine.

 

[chiteface]

OK so how do I calculate what would be equivalent to a 2L starter?

OG will be 1.072, 5g batch.

I assume a starter creates a lot more yeast cells right? In mrmalty I see how I can use slurry to calculate how much I need. Are they considering washed slurry? This is washed yeast.

Are you concerned about making a starter, or do you not have the proper equipment? If you want optimal results I would do a starter because that does create more healthy yeast. Yes slurry would be the washed yeast.

 

[Logzor]

I don't have any equipment to make starter. I ended up just dumping in about a 1/2" washed yeast that I had in a 1 quart jar. The top blew off when I opened it open so I assume the yeast are still good.

Hopefully in the next day or two I'll see signs of fermentation.

I plan on ordering some kind of glassware so I can make a starter right on the stove and use the same container to store it.

 

[Sulli]

Keep us updated.

 

[jagec]

Just pitch it! Pitch it all. More than you normally would. Don't start it, just pitch it.

This method will work, and will make perfectly good beer, but won't make GREAT beer, or CONSISTENT beer.

 

[dbhokie]

Id just make a starter, you don't need much equipment. You just need a glass jug, (doesn't even technically need to be glass), and some light dme. Then shake it if you don't have a stir plate.

 

[Logzor]

Yeah it sounds like I need to keep some extra DME on hand. Would LME work just as well? What about plain sugar?

Dumb question, but why do I need a starter when the wort is basically one giant version of the exact same thing the starter is? The only difference is the hops and the grains I steeped.

The wort turned out a lot darker than I expected. Although so did my Stone Pale Ale when I made it (turned out great BTW). There is about a gallon of trub in the bottom, which I suspect will compact in the coming weeks. I added a little more water to help make up for the displacement.

 

[BenS]

I would disagree too. Mrmalty.com has a super easy calculator and it's free.at least take a look. Also To achieve the clean favors of a Stone brew, I would leave out the yeast from the stout, otherwise you may get a slightly smoky/chocolate flavor.

Stone re-pitches yeast from batch to batch. Why can't home brewers?

 

[dbhokie]

Yeah it sounds like I need to keep some extra DME on hand. Would LME work just as well? What about plain sugar?

Dumb question, but why do I need a starter when the wort is basically one giant version of the exact same thing the starter is? The only difference is the hops and the grains I steeped.

The wort turned out a lot darker than I expected. Although so did my Stone Pale Ale when I made it (turned out great BTW). There is about a gallon of trub in the bottom, which I suspect will compact in the coming weeks. I added a little more water to help make up for the displacement.

I think repitching is great, but when you used washed yeast, well I make a starter to ensure the viability of each culture, and it will at least let you know that you are getting to around a good pitch rate. I just buy a 3 pound bag of DME, and keep it handy, it will last you forever for starters. A beer that you brew is essentially a "starter", so that's why I have no problem using yeast cakes or slurry, but with washed yeast I usually make a starter. I think if you threw in multiple jars of it you probably would be perfectly happy with the result either way. Just my two ccs.

 

[BenS]

Yeah it sounds like I need to keep some extra DME on hand. Would LME work just as well? What about plain sugar?

Dumb question, but why do I need a starter when the wort is basically one giant version of the exact same thing the starter is? The only difference is the hops and the grains I steeped.

The wort turned out a lot darker than I expected. Although so did my Stone Pale Ale when I made it (turned out great BTW). There is about a gallon of trub in the bottom, which I suspect will compact in the coming weeks. I added a little more water to help make up for the displacement.

DME is best for starters. You can dose it out in small amounts, LME is an all or nothing use. DO NOT use sugar for starters. It 'trains' new yeast growth to only consume sucrose, so you'll have a really high finishing gravity in the beer you use that starter in.
Preparing a starter ensures that you are pitching the proper amount of yeast into a batch of beer. Not pitching enough yeast can lead to off flavors, long fermentation start times (read....infection), and sometimes, under atttenuated final gravity. I do not make a starter for re-pitching because I don't believe it's needed. I do make a starter when I am using a new package of liquid yeast because liquid yeast doesn't provide you with quite enough yeast for a 5 gal batch and you often get older packages that have lower viability (less yeast left alive).
And don't worry about color in the fermenter, it will turn out lighter than you think when you pour a beer.

 

[Yankeehillbrewer]

I don't have any equipment to make starter. I ended up just dumping in about a 1/2" washed yeast that I had in a 1 quart jar. The top blew off when I opened it open so I assume the yeast are still good.

Hopefully in the next day or two I'll see signs of fermentation.

I plan on ordering some kind of glassware so I can make a starter right on the stove and use the same container to store it.

If you can swing it I would suggest getting a Stir Plate, it really cuts down on the size of the starter. For example I'm working on a starter for a Pilsner, If I did a "Simple" starter I would have had to do 9 Liters, but with a Stir Plate I only need to do 3.4 Liters. Which means I only have to step it up once, instead of 4 or 5 times.

 

[neophilus]

I think it's just a question of viability. If you had the same amount of yeast in sealed vials from the store I don't see how you could be doing something wrong by pitching them directly in.

If you knew the viability of your yeast I wouldn't think you need a starter.

I think you could make great beer using this method, but not consistently.

 

[chiteface]

Stone re-pitches yeast from batch to batch. Why can't home brewers?

Oh, I'm not saying not to repitch, but I am saying you probably don't want to repitch from a stout cake to a pale ale. I am also saying its best to measure what you are pitching. I repitch all the time, as long as I know the sample is clean, and I am moving from like beer to like beer.

 

[Logzor]

Sounds like I need to get some equipment for a starter. Can anyone recommend a good beaker I can put onto the stove? I saw one online that's a 2000 mL. I would really like to be able to do it all in once container then throw it onto the stir plate.

 

[BenS]

Oh, I'm not saying not to repitch, but I am saying you probably don't want to repitch from a stout cake to a pale ale.

That's true. I've used washed yeast cakes from dark beers into light beers, but not the straight cake with old beer and trub in there.

 

[BenS]

Sounds like I need to get some equipment for a starter. Can anyone recommend a good beaker I can put onto the stove? I saw one online that's a 2000 mL. I would really like to be able to do it all in once container then throw it onto the stir plate.

Just make sure its pyrex or equivalent. I forgot what the name of heat shock resistant glass is. Anybody want to help me out? I have a 2000mL pyrex Erlenmeyer flask. I also have an electric stove so can't heat it directly.

 

[Guess42]

Borosilicate

 

[dbhokie]

Just make sure its pyrex or equivalent. I forgot what the name of heat shock resistant glass is. Anybody want to help me out? I have a 2000mL pyrex Erlenmeyer flask. I also have an electric stove so can't heat it directly.

My electric glasstop range heats my beakers fine. However, It's a bloody mess if it boils over, you think it goes up fast in a pot...hell.

 

[Logzor]

Good news. 1/2" of Krausen this morning. I was in the middle of brewing when I started this thread to give you an idea of the time frame.

This basically started on the same schedule the last time I used this yeast.

I need to install a blow-off tube when I get home. This thing is going to be exploding by tomorrow. I have maybe a 1/2 gallon of headspace in the carboy...