Dissolving chalk?

[beerisyummy]

This is very interesting. It seems obvious that if chalk will dissolve in an acidic environment, and a mash is acidic .... well then...???

 

[hawkwing]

Whether or not it dissolves in the mash it dissolves in carbonated water. Your overthinking it lol.

 

[The_Antikveik]

I'd recommend extract brewers steep the darkest malts after adjusting pH with an empirically determined amount of CaCO3 (use a cheap pH pen ). Also a reality check for AG brewers questioning the use of chalk

 

[The_Antikveik]

Whether or not it dissolves in the mash it dissolves in carbonated water. Your overthinking it lol.

Nope, you're under-thinking it. Blatantly, too

 

[hawkwing]

Nope, you're under-thinking it. Blatantly, too

How so?

 

[The_Antikveik]

How so?

Because you're focusing on carbonated water rather than the mash

 

[hawkwing]

Because you're focusing on carbonated water rather than the mash

Your words not mine. Out of context BTW.

 

[beerisyummy]

Based on what I've read so far, if carb. water works, I mean, it's so simple, why not do it. There is a lot of concern over solubility of chalk, and even if it's misplaced I'd just as soon guarantee myself some Ca. Don't have the time or the chops to wade thru all the science.

 

[The_Antikveik]

Under thinking - reality - over thinking

Not really my logic as such. More common sense really.

Deviations from reality have comparable effects, regardless.

 

[The_Antikveik]

Based on what I've read so far, if carb. water works, I mean, it's so simple, why not do it. There is a lot of concern over solubility of chalk, and even if it's misplaced I'd just as soon guarantee myself some Ca. Don't have the time or the chops to wade thru all the science.

No science required. Empirical observation is more than enough to satisfy. Challenge it with a scientific design, by all means. It won't alter the fact it works. A prescribed amount of CaCO3 tossed into the mash, that is.

 

[beerisyummy]

No science required. Empirical observation is more than enough to satisfy. Challenge it with a scientific design, by all means. It won't alter the fact it works. A prescribed amount of CaCO3 tossed into the mash, that is.

Right, I'm an empirical kinda fella. But given the fact I wouldn't know whether or not it "worked" if I toss the chalk in the mash water - other than the pH reading - and by the time I take the reading it's too late - and the fact I can *see* in my little jar of carbonated water whether or not the chalk has dissolved - that's what I think I want to do. Sorry for the excessive hyphenations....

 

[The_Antikveik]

Right, I'm an empirical kinda fella. But given the fact I wouldn't know whether or not it "worked" if I toss the chalk in the mash water - other than the pH reading - and by the time I take the reading it's too late - and the fact I can *see* in my little jar of carbonated water whether or not the chalk has dissolved - that's what I think I want to do. Sorry for the excessive hyphenations....

It's added to manage pH. I wanted you to know that. I think you need to understand that bit and take it onboard

 

[beerisyummy]

It's added to manage pH. I wanted you to know that. I think you need to understand that bit and take it onboard

Right, thanks. But minerals are added to mashes to influence pH AND provide desirable substances, like calcium, no? I mean controlling pH is the easy part b/c you can adjust salts accordingly and in the end just squirt in the acid of your choice if you're still too high. My main concern, to re-state, is to add calcium and carbonate without including sulfate or chloride. In other words, If I dump in enough gypsum and/or CaCl2 get to my target levels of chloride vs. sulfate for the desired maltiness/hoppiness profile but I'm still short on the Ca or CO3 that I want, that's where the chalk comes in handy. Especially if I can be sure it dissolves

 

[catalanotte]

There are lots of detailed discussions on this that get very technical but dissolving Chalk first requires the creation of carbonic acid by saturating the water with CO2. This is the natural process that allows rainwater drops to erode limestone. By bubbling large quantities of CO2 gas into water, or using carbonated water as others suggested, you can recreate this process and force dissolved Calcium carbonate. The problem is you have now created lots of Carbonate alkalinity which can make it harder to drop the pH of the mash if its too high. Great for very low alkalinity water and a dark beer, not so good if your water already has high alkalinity and you are making a lighter beer.

Adding slaked lime creates some dissolved calcium but only to a point. As the pH of the solution rises towards the 9-10 range, you will start precipitating out Calcium Carbonate. Now you have lost both the Calcium you need and the Carbonate you may want to keep your mash pH from dropping too much. This is the lime softening process used for water with too muck alkalinity, but it (almost) completely strips the water of Calcium so you end having to add it back with CaCl or Gypsum.

A comment was made earlier about a difference between tap and RO/DI in this process, which is true as the RO/DI should have little carbonate alkalinity but tap water can very substantially based on source. Adding slaked lime to RO/DI will add calcium but needs to countered with more acid in the mash for pH control.

I prefer to stick with additions of CaCl and Gypsum to get the Calcium up to target which is not typically more than 50-70ppm. I have not seen a need for much more than that and you can easily bump calcium and keep chloride and sulfate levels appropriate for style.

Happy Brewing!!

 

[bracconiere]

And as others are saying, mashes are acidic...

and hot, in my experience, calcium carbonate isn't like bicarb, and foam up at the slightest touch. it needs persuasion....

 

[Miraculix]

Let me just throw in a wild guess......... if the chalk is used to get mash ph to a certain number, than it would not work if it would not be dissolved.

So call me crazy, but if you use it and happen to meassure the correct ph in your mash, wouldn't it simply mean that it worked? Compeltely without any CO2 and whatnot solving or not theory talk?

... must be the beer talking which I will have in one or two hours.

 

[catalanotte]

So call me crazy, but if you use it and happen to meassure the correct ph in your mash, wouldn't it simply mean that it worked? Compeltely without any CO2 and whatnot solving or not theory talk?

Don't get me wrong, I like the do what works approach. I brewed extract with 1 tablespoon of gypsum in the boil for years and it made good beer. Didn't know why, just kept doing what worked. In hindsight, I used local advice from someone that used local tap water to make IPAs, like me. That worked great for extract IPAs. When I tried to make non bitter beers, they sucked until I understood why I added gypsum and made some changes for those styles.

I could watch someone brew in red socks and produce an award winning beer, but I'd have a hard time convincing you all to buy red socks to make better beer. Not all observations are actually driving the outcome. It would be interesting to repeat the mash twice one with/one without, or take a pH before and after the chalk. Simply heating the water and the lowering the pH as you mash in the grains will increase the chalk solubility, but to a smaller extent.

If it makes good beer, it works. If you want to different or even better beer it does help to understand why it works.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

It doesn't make any sense to me. It's not like malted grain binds calcium selectively. The only reason I can think for adding more than the calculated amount is if you're not acidic enough to dissolve it all, and in that case you're going to be pulling tannins out anyway so you have a different problem. Calcium is important for yeast health and growth. It helps to prevent the yeast from dehydrating, but too much will precipitate phosphate so you want to keep it under 100 ppm.

But one of you (Kai) actually did the science bull work. That which makes intuitive sense is of zero value here. Need I mention that one of my favorite sayings is that intuition makes for seriously bad science. People tried the religo/philosophical approach to science for millennia and it got them essentially nowhere.

 

[Miraculix]

Don't get me wrong, I like the do what works approach. I brewed extract with 1 tablespoon of gypsum in the boil for years and it made good beer. Didn't know why, just kept doing what worked. In hindsight, I used local advice from someone that used local tap water to make IPAs, like me. That worked great for extract IPAs. When I tried to make non bitter beers, they sucked until I understood why I added gypsum and made some changes for those styles.

I could watch someone brew in red socks and produce an award winning beer, but I'd have a hard time convincing you all to buy red socks to make better beer. Not all observations are actually driving the outcome. It would be interesting to repeat the mash twice one with/one without, or take a pH before and after the chalk. Simply heating the water and the lowering the pH as you mash in the grains will increase the chalk solubility, but to a smaller extent.

If it makes good beer, it works. If you want to different or even better beer it does help to understand why it works.

I assumed that the person doing this was measuring a ph that is way off without any additions of chalk. Otherwise the chalk wouldn't make any sense, so a with chalk and a without chalk measurement would be there.

 

[AlexKay]

Right, thanks. But minerals are added to mashes to influence pH AND provide desirable substances, like calcium, no? I mean controlling pH is the easy part b/c you can adjust salts accordingly and in the end just squirt in the acid of your choice if you're still too high. My main concern, to re-state, is to add calcium and carbonate without including sulfate or chloride. In other words, If I dump in enough gypsum and/or CaCl2 get to my target levels of chloride vs. sulfate for the desired maltiness/hoppiness profile but I'm still short on the Ca or CO3 that I want, that's where the chalk comes in handy. Especially if I can be sure it dissolves

For carbonate, you can add baking soda. The small amount of sodium this adds will be below the taste threshold (and if it isn’t, I personally like a little more sodium in my dark beers, anyway.)

For calcium, I haven’t heard a good argument against calcium lactate. Can anyone weigh in?

 

[catalanotte]

For calcium, I haven’t heard a good argument against calcium lactate. Can anyone weigh in?

Following, would like to hear more. From a quick Google search it looks like calcium lactate is a product of the reaction between lactic acid and calcium carbonate. Could you add a measured amount of both to get both calcium and a pH drop in the mash?

Would lactate add any perceived flavors different from the lactic acid additions often used for pH control?

 

[CleanEmUpIves]

For carbonate, you can add baking soda. The small amount of sodium this adds will be below the taste threshold (and if it isn’t, I personally like a little more sodium in my dark beers, anyway.)

For calcium, I haven’t heard a good argument against calcium lactate. Can anyone weigh in?

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Lactate_Taste_Threshold_experiment
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=15041.0
The issue is accounting for the resulting lactate taste threshold.

 

[AlexKay]

The issue is accounting for the resulting lactate taste threshold.

That seems to indicate that 400 ppm lactate is hard for most people to taste. Calcium lactate is about 18% calcium by mass, so you could add ~100 ppm calcium ... which is more than you should need, right?

 

[CleanEmUpIves]

That seems to indicate that 400 ppm lactate is hard for most people to taste. Calcium lactate is about 18% calcium by mass, so you could add ~100 ppm calcium ... which is more than you should need, right?

British beers are often brewed with 150ppm+ of Calcium. The percentage of calcium added via specific salts would certainly be a matter of reason. The Jim's Beer kit forum has very fierce proponents of high calcium water.

Most is not all when it comes to taste.

I don't know of any water calculators that account for calcium lactate but perhaps some of the authors @Silver_Is_Money or @Martin Brungard would consider adding it.

There is no hard and fast validation for your goal. Why not try it for yourself and report back?

 

[AlexKay]

Just ordered 400 g for $15.

I’ve got a Bo Pils brew day planned in a week or so. I’d normally be low on calcium in order to keep chloride and sulfate low; I’ll try it with ~50 ppm of calcium from calcium lactate. Not as rigorous as a split batch with different water, I know, but if it comes out tasting good I’ll feel I’ve accomplished something.

 

[beerisyummy]

Let me just throw in a wild guess......... if the chalk is used to get mash ph to a certain number, than it would not work if it would not be dissolved.

So call me crazy, but if you use it and happen to meassure the correct ph in your mash, wouldn't it simply mean that it worked? Compeltely without any CO2 and whatnot solving or not theory talk?

... must be the beer talking which I will have in one or two hours.

I'll get back now with my real-world experience. I dissolved the chalk in a small jar of carbonated water, which I made with my Sodastream. It immediately foamed up a bit, which I took as a good sign (chemical reaction?). I swirled it up a couple times, ending up with this white .... chalky .... liquid. It looked a lot more dissolved than the gypsum and CaCl sitting in the bottom of the mash pot, and we don't hear much at all about those not dissolving in a mash.
Here's the interesting part: the pH ended up a little high, at 5.5 .... I was aiming for 5.3-5.4. Not sure how it might have evaded the brewing software (I use brewer's friend), or maybe my pH meter needs to be recalibrated. At any rate, rampant potential inaccuracies notwithstanding, imma say "it worked."

 

[CleanEmUpIves]

The solution should clear after a while.

See instructions and pictures here:

https://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Building_brewing_water_with_dissolved_chalk

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

In the latest Brulosophy Exbeeriment Gypsum was added to one American Pale Ale, doubling it's SO4 ppm, and not added to another otherwise identical American Pale Ale. Calcium of course went way up also for the beer that received the huge dose of Gypsum. Of 21 testers, only 4 claimed to be able to notice any difference. That's about as statistically definitive as it gets as to the irrelevance of adding a bunch of excess Gypsum.

The moral of the story is: Why torture yourself attempting to boost Calcium via Chalk addition(s), when you are not going to notice if it was done via the application of such torture, or via simply adding CaSO4 (or likely also CaCl2).

PS: I've been on record saying much the same thing for some time now. I.E., that the most likely event will be that you won't notice a difference.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

AFAICT, Kai Troester designed and maintains the Brewers Friend mash pH adjustment software. Did he design it to reflect the poor solubility of Calcium Carbonate as per his research and compensate for it internally thereby. That would seem logical.

 

[catalanotte]

Just ordered 400 g for $15.

I’ve got a Bo Pils brew day planned in a week or so. I’d normally be low on calcium in order to keep chloride and sulfate low; I’ll try it with ~50 ppm of calcium from calcium lactate. Not as rigorous as a split batch with different water, I know, but if it comes out tasting good I’ll feel I’ve accomplished something.

What is you normal target for Ca for a Bohemian Pilsner? I have only made one and it came out really good at 12 ppm Ca. Was concerned about this very issue and opted to brew with low Ca. No problems.