Discussion on malty German beers

[cyberbackpacker]

I have used Saurmaltz in pilsners routinely for controlling mash pH and I haven't noticed any great effect from it, so I went back to pure lactic acid.

I see where you are coming from, but Sauergut is much different than Sauermalz... I would look into it if I were you; I have appreciated it's effects. And I think it could help with what I believe is a "crispness"/well-defined maltiness of finish and character, a la the mentions of attenuation, that you are searching for. Maybe even just do a small 1 gallon batch to test.

Just an idea to try and help you get where you want to go.

 

[TheMadKing]

I see where you are coming from, but Sauergut is much different than Sauermalz... I would look into it if I were you; I have appreciated it's effects. And I think it could help with what I believe is a "crispness"/well-defined maltiness of finish and character, a la the mentions of attenuation, that you are searching for. Maybe even just do a small 1 gallon batch to test.

Just an idea to try and help you get where you want to go.

I'll test it out thanks!

I'm also curious about some of the other LoDo techniques as standalone contributors, specifically:

Higher than normal pitch rate
Lower than normal pitch temperature
Non-standard fermentation profile
Sodium in the finished water profile
Conditioning grain before milling
Preboiling water
Naturally carbonating in a keg

I'm thinking that I want to test all of these in isolation. That's just a lot of variables to change simultaneously to be able to attribute all of the change in the finished product to lower oxygen alone.

 

[techbrau]

So I'm a huge German beer fan.
...
Now, in all modesty, I make pretty decent beer. It's technically good meaning that there's not usually detectable flaws resulting from technique or process and rarely off flavors. When I make a German beer though, I struggle to get the incredibly refined "malty but attenuated" flavor characteristic of these styles.

I currently have a munich dunkel on tap. It's the right color, the right gravity, the right basic flavor, it's pretty tasty! But then I try it beside an imported dunkel and the malt flavor is practically non-existent.

I'm not talking about the difference between bad beer and good beer here, I'm talking about the difference between good beer and masterful beer. I frankly don't know how they retain so much malt character without making a beer that tastes sweet.
...
Please do not bring up LODO techniques on this thread, that is not my intent. I minimize oxygen whenever practical and I cannot accept that this quality of beer was only developed in Germany after the invention of bottled CO2.

"Please help me solve problem X! But please don't tell me to use solution Y, even though solution Y has solved problem X for hundreds of other people."

 

[Miraculix]

I just remembered that in one of bigger experiments, I compared smash to smash with 10% melanoidin malt. That really made a huge difference in maltyness and gave me what I was looking for. I guess long and very thick decoction should do almost the same.

 

[TheMadKing]

Also another update, I just emailed the Devils Backbone brewing to see if I can talk to someone about their process. Their Maibock is one of my favorite beers of all time

 

[TheMadKing]

[emoji57]

"Please help me solve problem X! But please don't tell me to use solution Y, even though solution Y has solved problem X for hundreds of other people."

Much like religion.

This is why I asked not to discuss that topic. Not because I don't believe it has merit, or because I'm not exploring it on my own, but because it is a devisive contentious subject that seems to breed nothing but personal attacks like this.

Shun the non-believer if you must, but please don't start evangelizing here. This is a conversation not a political rally.

I was just on your website though, thanks.

 

[schematix]

Low oxygen isn't religion, politics or evangelizing. It's a brewing process to get certain qualities in the finished product.

That's it.

Why it evokes emotions like this in people is totally beyond me.

 

[schematix]

Would you be interested in a beer swap? Is it possible to bottle and preserve the maltiness?

I've been a kegger since day 1 and don't even own the equipment to bottle. You're welcome to stop by whenever.

 

[TheMadKing]

I've been a kegger since day 1 and don't even own the equipment to bottle. You're welcome to stop by whenever.

Bit of a drive, but thank you for the invitation

I'll give it a shot. I already have the ability to do the hot side Lodo techniques with my current equipment. If it works, great, I'll start rolling back variables one at a time until I figure out why specifically. If not, I'll probably give it another shot before I go back to my standard peasant brewing techniques

 

[Bilsch]

I'll give it a shot. I already have the ability to do the hot side Lodo techniques with my current equipment. If it works, great, I'll start rolling back variables one at a time until I figure out why specifically.

It worked for me and I hope the same for you.

 

[tgodsill]

@TheMadKing Let your journey begin here lowoxygenbrewing.com.

 

[divrack]

I was afraid Brulosophy would come up as a source...
The second exbeeriment has nothing to do with decoction BTW.

I was actually waiting for your original post to suddenly morph into an evangelisation for lodo... Pleased to see that it didn't.
My perspective on the whole thing is actually that im not at all sure that the elusive it factor of German Beers even exists at all.. I live in the uk and have been in Germanya few times and used to live above a pub that imported German Beers exclusively, and really im not sure I would say that anything was hard to recreate..
However i wonder if the quality of barley in the States differs, but probably you guys would have noticed the difference in imported grain v local by now.

 

[TheMadKing]

@TheMadKing Let your journey begin here lowoxygenbrewing.com.

I've read their entire website, thanks!

But seriously.. Phrasing like "let your journey begin" sounds pretty cult like... Just sayin'

Do I have to pay for shipping to get some of the koolaid and one of those cool robes? [emoji16]

 

[TheMadKing]

I was actually waiting for your original post to suddenly morph into an evangelisation for lodo... Pleased to see that it didn't.
My perspective on the whole thing is actually that im not at all sure that the elusive it factor of German Beers even exists at all.. I live in the uk and have been in Germanya few times and used to live above a pub that imported German Beers exclusively, and really im not sure I would say that anything was hard to recreate..
However i wonder if the quality of barley in the States differs, but probably you guys would have noticed the difference in imported grain v local by now.

I've certainly wondered if ingredients play a big factor as well.

There certainly is a difference between the commercial Dunkel I have in my fridge and mine when I taste them side by side but I wouldn't call it anything magical.

The best way I can describe it to someone is:

Go buy a bottle of Sam Adams octoberfest and taste it very criticality and slowly like a beer judge would next to a bottle of Ayinger Marzen.

The initial malt flavor when it first hits your pallet is almost perfect, it's rich and full and has everything I'm after. But then you swallow and its sweet and heavy and it lingers

The Ayinger has the same initial taste and you expect it to be sweet, but then you swallow and its crisp, smooth, perfectly balanced with the hops, and doesn't feel heavy at all making it very drinkable.

That's all I'm after. I'm not chasing some undefined "it". I'm trying to make a beer that has that same quality of initial strong full malt flavor but that is very drinkable and balanced on the finish. I still think it's a combination of mash technique and yeast handling, but ingredients and recipe also seem like good candidates.

If Lodo brewing accomplishes that, then I'm willing to test it, but I'm admittedly skeptical.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The melanoidin malt solution to low maltiness intrigues me. However, the fact that its Lovibond color is in the ballpark of 26L may dissuade using loads of it. How about 10% of a light Munich malt (in the 5L to 10L range)? Or ~20% Vienna malt added to the Pilsner?

 

[Vale71]

I was actually waiting for your original post to suddenly morph into an evangelisation for lodo... Pleased to see that it didn't.
My perspective on the whole thing is actually that im not at all sure that the elusive it factor of German Beers even exists at all.. I live in the uk and have been in Germanya few times and used to live above a pub that imported German Beers exclusively, and really im not sure I would say that anything was hard to recreate..
However i wonder if the quality of barley in the States differs, but probably you guys would have noticed the difference in imported grain v local by now.

Not to worry, no evangelical zest here whatsoever...
I actually live in Italy so I have full access to German and UK malts, from the US I only get my yeast and hops.
As for German beers, the larger breweries have all switched to single-step infusion mashing and high temperature fermentations, although they are admittedly better at it than other breweries I doubt their product still has much of the original character left. For that you have to look for the smaller, tradition-obsessed breweries, many of which are to be found in Franken (Bamberg).

 

[Vale71]

The melanoidin malt solution to low maltiness intrigues me. The fact that its Lovibond color is ballpark 26L may dissuade using loads of it. How about 10% of a light Munich malt (in the 5L to 10L range)?

I've often used Melanoidin in an attempt to simulate decoction character. While it works to some extent I found that excessive amounts quickly make the beer cloyingly sweet.

 

[TheMadKing]

The melanoidin malt solution to low maltiness intrigues me. However, the fact that its Lovibond color is in the ballpark of 26L may dissuade using loads of it. How about 10% of a light Munich malt (in the 5L to 10L range)? Or ~20% Vienna malt added to the Pilsner?

My typical pilsner uses about 6% melanoidin and I have no issue with the flavor of my pilsners.

I think because it's a much hoppier and lighter beer it's easier to get the crisp profile I'm after (for me). The last one that I entered in competition got a 35 but it did get marked down a little bit for being slightly too dark, so you're right that any melanoidin use needs to be restrained.

I've not tried adding Vienna though. That's not a bad idea at all.

 

[TheMadKing]

Not to worry, no evangelical zest here whatsoever...
I actually live in Italy so I have full access to German and UK malts, from the US I only get my yeast and hops.
As for German beers, the larger breweries have all switched to single-step infusion mashing and high temperature fermentations, although they are admittedly better at it than other breweries I doubt their product still has much of the original character left. For that you have to look for the smaller, tradition-obsessed breweries, many of which are to be found in Franken (Bamberg).

That's really good info thank you

Do you have any more info on the high temperature fermentations? Are they pressurized as well?

 

[Vale71]

Yep, they start at around 0.5 bar and can increase up to 3 bar. They also mostly use yeast strains that are particularly suited for this kind of fermentation (Page 4 in this brochure from a well-known yeast bank in Munich) and higher pitch rates and reduced oxygenation.

 

[TheMadKing]

Yep, they start at around 0.5 bar and can increase up to 3 bar. They also mostly use yeast strains that are particularly suited for this kind of fermentation (Page 4 in this brochure from a well-known yeast bank in Munich) and higher pitch rates and reduced oxygenation.

Awesome, thanks!

 

[Blackdirt_cowboy]

I’ve been considering this as well, as I love the malty german beers. I haven’t explored LODO yet, just because I don’t have the equipment for it, but I am careful to avoid adding to much oxygen to the hot side.

My last Oktoberfest has led me to believe that ingredients may play a bigger role in this. I used dark Munich for the first time, and the resulting beer has a very malty, toasty flavor. Now, in full disclosure, my attenuation was poor. FG was around 1.020, and I’m not sure why. The beer is not cloying, but it’s definitely not as crisp and dry as it should be.

I still want to experiment with some LODO techniques to see if that helps. Until then, my next mash may just be a deccoction. I’ve never done one, so I would like to try that to see how that changes my beer.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

As for German beers, the larger breweries have all switched to single-step infusion mashing and high temperature fermentations, ...

Taking this to its limits, would mashing at 70 degrees C. be excessive? Mouthfeel may enhance the perception of maltiness.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

You want that fermentability to keep it dry though.

It's not my area at all, but do we know what kind of mash thickness German breweries use? That could be a variable to play with.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

You want that fermentability to keep it dry though.

It's not my area at all, but do we know what kind of mash thickness German breweries use? That could be a variable to play with.

I believe I once read an article by Kai Torester (Braukaiser) stating that German brewing is generally done with thinner mashes than for typical American Brewing, but that is the extent of my knowledge on this subject.

 

[TheMadKing]

Taking this to its limits, would mashing at 70 degrees C. be excessive? Mouthfeel may enhance the perception of maltiness.

I think that would increase the heaviness and perception of sweetness as well, which would have the opposite effect

 

[Bassman2003]

MadKing, I think a lot of us who have been brewing for a while are seeking the same. I have been brewing for 16 years with a slant towards German styles. I know you do not want to discuss LODO, but it really is kind of the final frontier in a way. You probably have been to Germany or Belgium and realized the beers just taste different in country. What you are searching for is the best beer in the world type of flavor. It does not come easy. Not every German or Belgium brewery is Low oxygen but they do have 1000s of years of process in the learning. In my opinion, low oxygen is a big part of it.

I have just started experimenting with the techniques. I will give you an easy way to experiment if you keg. Just do these two things on your next brew and see if you have any improvements:

Boil your mash and sparge water for 5 minutes and cool down right before use. Underlet your mash by adding the water slowly to the grain instead of adding grain to the water.

Naturally carbonate your kegs with fermenting wort. Easy, just transfer to your keg with 1 plato left in fermentation. Having a spunding valve helps monitor this but many do it without. The fermenting wort will finish in the keg at fermentation temps, scavenge any oxygen and create the carbonation all in one easy step. Then move the keg to your fridge for lagering/serving.

As Schematix stated, I do not see the emotion around this stuff. You are just trying to preserve the malt/grain flavors all the way through the process. It is not as easy as relax and have a homebrew (which is fine) but if you have every been around Germans or German breweries, the easy road is not part of the list of options

I did this test on a hefeweizen and it is the best beer of the style I have ever made. It had 'that something' that I taste over there that I never taste here. Sort of a missing fullness in the malt profile. You know you are on the right track if you taste your cooled wort from the boil kettle and you taste honey notes.

Best of luck in whatever you try.

 

[Vale71]

Taking this to its limits, would mashing at 70 degrees C. be excessive? Mouthfeel may enhance the perception of maltiness.

That would give you a beer that the Germans would describe as "mastig". "Chewable" ist the closest translation I can think of...

 

[TheMadKing]

MadKing, I think a lot of us who have been brewing for a while are seeking the same. I have been brewing for 16 years with a slant towards German styles. I know you do not want to discuss LODO, but it really is kind of the final frontier in a way. You probably have been to Germany or Belgium and realized the beers just taste different in country. What you are searching for is the best beer in the world type of flavor. It does not come easy. Not every German or Belgium brewery is Low oxygen but they do have 1000s of years of process in the learning. In my opinion, low oxygen is a big part of it.

I have just started experimenting with the techniques. I will give you an easy way to experiment if you keg. Just do these two things on your next brew and see if you have any improvements:

Boil your mash and sparge water for 5 minutes and cool down right before use. Underlet your mash by adding the water slowly to the grain instead of adding grain to the water.

Naturally carbonate your kegs with fermenting wort. Easy, just transfer to your keg with 1 plato left in fermentation. Having a spunding valve helps monitor this but many do it without. The fermenting wort will finish in the keg at fermentation temps, scavenge any oxygen and create the carbonation all in one easy step. Then move the keg to your fridge for lagering/serving.

As Schematix stated, I do not see the emotion around this stuff. You are just trying to preserve the malt/grain flavors all the way through the process. It is not as easy as relax and have a homebrew (which is fine) but if you have every been around Germans or German breweries, the easy road is not part of the list of options

I did this test on a hefeweizen and it is the best beer of the style I have ever made. It had 'that something' that I taste over there that I never taste here. Sort of a missing fullness in the malt profile. You know you are on the right track if you taste your cooled wort from the boil kettle and you taste honey notes.

Best of luck in whatever you try.

Thanks for the reply

I'm not a fan of changing multiple variable simultaneously. I know homebrewing isn't exact and I'm not shooting for lab grade reproducibility, but if I can change a couple things about my process and improve my beers across the board, I'm all for it.

So on my next german lager brew I'm going to start with preboiling my mash water without changing anything else. I BIAB so I can't underlet my mash, but I normally put aluminum foil over the top of my mash to help eliminate headspace for heat retention and I'm always careful about stirring too hard when I mash in.

If there is no perceptible change from preboiling, I'll add the SMB to the next go-round in addition to preboiling, and if no change there, then I'll add naturally carbonating in the keg to the process

 

[schematix]

Thanks for the reply

I'm not a fan of changing multiple variable simultaneously. I know homebrewing isn't exact and I'm not shooting for lab grade reproducibility, but if I can change a couple things about my process and improve my beers across the board, I'm all for it.

So on my next german lager brew I'm going to start with preboiling my mash water without changing anything else. I BIAB so I can't underlet my mash, but I normally put aluminum foil over the top of my mash to help eliminate headspace for heat retention and I'm always careful about stirring too hard when I mash in.

If there is no perceptible change from preboiling, I'll add the SMB to the next go-round in addition to preboiling, and if no change there, then I'll add naturally carbonating in the keg to the process

Don't be scared about changing more than 1 variable at time. You're not publishing peer reviewed scientific research here... If you only ever change 1 thing at a time your pace of progress will be very slow. Now with that said don't try to change 10 things, if anything because it make a lot more room for error.

I think the best way to see that the low oxygen process is real is to just do the mash. Even if you don't execute the rest of the process (light boiling, yeast, spunding, etc) and lose those flavors, you will at least observe them in the mash and know what you've done has changed the wort.

As others have said... hard boil your strike water for 5 (max 10) minutes. Rapidly chill to strike temp. Add your minerals and sulfites (10-20 ppm) at about 200F, slowly underlet the mash, give it a stir, and continue as normal. You can't really skip this part of the process (unless you use the yeast method, but that's another topic). It's as simple as pre-boil, sulfites and underlet slowly. A mash cap helps but isn't strictly necessary. Take small samples of your wort through the process and taste them. The other obvious sensory different is the lack of mash aroma. If it still smells strongly you didn't get the oxygen out of the water or are introducing too much.