tgodsill
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@TheMadKing Let your journey begin here ********************.
Discussion on malty German beers
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I was actually waiting for your original post to suddenly morph into an evangelisation for lodo... Pleased to see that it didn't.
My perspective on the whole thing is actually that im not at all sure that the elusive it factor of German Beers even exists at all.. I live in the uk and have been in Germanya few times and used to live above a pub that imported German Beers exclusively, and really im not sure I would say that anything was hard to recreate..
However i wonder if the quality of barley in the States differs, but probably you guys would have noticed the difference in imported grain v local by now.
OP
OP
I've read their entire website, thanks!
But seriously.. Phrasing like "let your journey begin" sounds pretty cult like... Just sayin'
Do I have to pay for shipping to get some of the koolaid and one of those cool robes? [emoji16]
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OP
OP
I've certainly wondered if ingredients play a big factor as well.
There certainly is a difference between the commercial Dunkel I have in my fridge and mine when I taste them side by side but I wouldn't call it anything magical.
The best way I can describe it to someone is:
Go buy a bottle of Sam Adams octoberfest and taste it very criticality and slowly like a beer judge would next to a bottle of Ayinger Marzen.
The initial malt flavor when it first hits your pallet is almost perfect, it's rich and full and has everything I'm after. But then you swallow and its sweet and heavy and it lingers
The Ayinger has the same initial taste and you expect it to be sweet, but then you swallow and its crisp, smooth, perfectly balanced with the hops, and doesn't feel heavy at all making it very drinkable.
That's all I'm after. I'm not chasing some undefined "it". I'm trying to make a beer that has that same quality of initial strong full malt flavor but that is very drinkable and balanced on the finish. I still think it's a combination of mash technique and yeast handling, but ingredients and recipe also seem like good candidates.
If Lodo brewing accomplishes that, then I'm willing to test it, but I'm admittedly skeptical.
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Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
The melanoidin malt solution to low maltiness intrigues me. However, the fact that its Lovibond color is in the ballpark of 26L may dissuade using loads of it. How about 10% of a light Munich malt (in the 5L to 10L range)? Or ~20% Vienna malt added to the Pilsner?
Not to worry, no evangelical zest here whatsoever...
I actually live in Italy so I have full access to German and UK malts, from the US I only get my yeast and hops.
As for German beers, the larger breweries have all switched to single-step infusion mashing and high temperature fermentations, although they are admittedly better at it than other breweries I doubt their product still has much of the original character left. For that you have to look for the smaller, tradition-obsessed breweries, many of which are to be found in Franken (Bamberg).
I've often used Melanoidin in an attempt to simulate decoction character. While it works to some extent I found that excessive amounts quickly make the beer cloyingly sweet.
OP
OP
My typical pilsner uses about 6% melanoidin and I have no issue with the flavor of my pilsners.
I think because it's a much hoppier and lighter beer it's easier to get the crisp profile I'm after (for me). The last one that I entered in competition got a 35 but it did get marked down a little bit for being slightly too dark, so you're right that any melanoidin use needs to be restrained.
I've not tried adding Vienna though. That's not a bad idea at all.
OP
OP
Not to worry, no evangelical zest here whatsoever...
I actually live in Italy so I have full access to German and UK malts, from the US I only get my yeast and hops.
As for German beers, the larger breweries have all switched to single-step infusion mashing and high temperature fermentations, although they are admittedly better at it than other breweries I doubt their product still has much of the original character left. For that you have to look for the smaller, tradition-obsessed breweries, many of which are to be found in Franken (Bamberg).
That's really good info thank you
Do you have any more info on the high temperature fermentations? Are they pressurized as well?
OP
OP
Awesome, thanks!
I’ve been considering this as well, as I love the malty german beers. I haven’t explored LODO yet, just because I don’t have the equipment for it, but I am careful to avoid adding to much oxygen to the hot side.
My last Oktoberfest has led me to believe that ingredients may play a bigger role in this. I used dark Munich for the first time, and the resulting beer has a very malty, toasty flavor. Now, in full disclosure, my attenuation was poor. FG was around 1.020, and I’m not sure why. The beer is not cloying, but it’s definitely not as crisp and dry as it should be.
I still want to experiment with some LODO techniques to see if that helps. Until then, my next mash may just be a deccoction. I’ve never done one, so I would like to try that to see how that changes my beer.
My last Oktoberfest has led me to believe that ingredients may play a bigger role in this. I used dark Munich for the first time, and the resulting beer has a very malty, toasty flavor. Now, in full disclosure, my attenuation was poor. FG was around 1.020, and I’m not sure why. The beer is not cloying, but it’s definitely not as crisp and dry as it should be.
I still want to experiment with some LODO techniques to see if that helps. Until then, my next mash may just be a deccoction. I’ve never done one, so I would like to try that to see how that changes my beer.
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
Taking this to its limits, would mashing at 70 degrees C. be excessive? Mouthfeel may enhance the perception of maltiness.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
You want that fermentability to keep it dry though.
It's not my area at all, but do we know what kind of mash thickness German breweries use? That could be a variable to play with.
It's not my area at all, but do we know what kind of mash thickness German breweries use? That could be a variable to play with.
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
I believe I once read an article by Kai Torester (Braukaiser) stating that German brewing is generally done with thinner mashes than for typical American Brewing, but that is the extent of my knowledge on this subject.
OP
OP
I think that would increase the heaviness and perception of sweetness as well, which would have the opposite effect
MadKing, I think a lot of us who have been brewing for a while are seeking the same. I have been brewing for 16 years with a slant towards German styles. I know you do not want to discuss LODO, but it really is kind of the final frontier in a way. You probably have been to Germany or Belgium and realized the beers just taste different in country. What you are searching for is the best beer in the world type of flavor. It does not come easy. Not every German or Belgium brewery is Low oxygen but they do have 1000s of years of process in the learning. In my opinion, low oxygen is a big part of it.
I have just started experimenting with the techniques. I will give you an easy way to experiment if you keg. Just do these two things on your next brew and see if you have any improvements:
Boil your mash and sparge water for 5 minutes and cool down right before use. Underlet your mash by adding the water slowly to the grain instead of adding grain to the water.
Naturally carbonate your kegs with fermenting wort. Easy, just transfer to your keg with 1 plato left in fermentation. Having a spunding valve helps monitor this but many do it without. The fermenting wort will finish in the keg at fermentation temps, scavenge any oxygen and create the carbonation all in one easy step. Then move the keg to your fridge for lagering/serving.
As Schematix stated, I do not see the emotion around this stuff. You are just trying to preserve the malt/grain flavors all the way through the process. It is not as easy as relax and have a homebrew (which is fine) but if you have every been around Germans or German breweries, the easy road is not part of the list of options
I did this test on a hefeweizen and it is the best beer of the style I have ever made. It had 'that something' that I taste over there that I never taste here. Sort of a missing fullness in the malt profile. You know you are on the right track if you taste your cooled wort from the boil kettle and you taste honey notes.
Best of luck in whatever you try.
I have just started experimenting with the techniques. I will give you an easy way to experiment if you keg. Just do these two things on your next brew and see if you have any improvements:
Boil your mash and sparge water for 5 minutes and cool down right before use. Underlet your mash by adding the water slowly to the grain instead of adding grain to the water.
Naturally carbonate your kegs with fermenting wort. Easy, just transfer to your keg with 1 plato left in fermentation. Having a spunding valve helps monitor this but many do it without. The fermenting wort will finish in the keg at fermentation temps, scavenge any oxygen and create the carbonation all in one easy step. Then move the keg to your fridge for lagering/serving.
As Schematix stated, I do not see the emotion around this stuff. You are just trying to preserve the malt/grain flavors all the way through the process. It is not as easy as relax and have a homebrew (which is fine) but if you have every been around Germans or German breweries, the easy road is not part of the list of options
I did this test on a hefeweizen and it is the best beer of the style I have ever made. It had 'that something' that I taste over there that I never taste here. Sort of a missing fullness in the malt profile. You know you are on the right track if you taste your cooled wort from the boil kettle and you taste honey notes.
Best of luck in whatever you try.
That would give you a beer that the Germans would describe as "mastig". "Chewable" ist the closest translation I can think of...
OP
OP
MadKing, I think a lot of us who have been brewing for a while are seeking the same. I have been brewing for 16 years with a slant towards German styles. I know you do not want to discuss LODO, but it really is kind of the final frontier in a way. You probably have been to Germany or Belgium and realized the beers just taste different in country. What you are searching for is the best beer in the world type of flavor. It does not come easy. Not every German or Belgium brewery is Low oxygen but they do have 1000s of years of process in the learning. In my opinion, low oxygen is a big part of it.
I have just started experimenting with the techniques. I will give you an easy way to experiment if you keg. Just do these two things on your next brew and see if you have any improvements:
Boil your mash and sparge water for 5 minutes and cool down right before use. Underlet your mash by adding the water slowly to the grain instead of adding grain to the water.
Naturally carbonate your kegs with fermenting wort. Easy, just transfer to your keg with 1 plato left in fermentation. Having a spunding valve helps monitor this but many do it without. The fermenting wort will finish in the keg at fermentation temps, scavenge any oxygen and create the carbonation all in one easy step. Then move the keg to your fridge for lagering/serving.
As Schematix stated, I do not see the emotion around this stuff. You are just trying to preserve the malt/grain flavors all the way through the process. It is not as easy as relax and have a homebrew (which is fine) but if you have every been around Germans or German breweries, the easy road is not part of the list of options
I did this test on a hefeweizen and it is the best beer of the style I have ever made. It had 'that something' that I taste over there that I never taste here. Sort of a missing fullness in the malt profile. You know you are on the right track if you taste your cooled wort from the boil kettle and you taste honey notes.
Best of luck in whatever you try.
Thanks for the reply
I'm not a fan of changing multiple variable simultaneously. I know homebrewing isn't exact and I'm not shooting for lab grade reproducibility, but if I can change a couple things about my process and improve my beers across the board, I'm all for it.
So on my next german lager brew I'm going to start with preboiling my mash water without changing anything else. I BIAB so I can't underlet my mash, but I normally put aluminum foil over the top of my mash to help eliminate headspace for heat retention and I'm always careful about stirring too hard when I mash in.
If there is no perceptible change from preboiling, I'll add the SMB to the next go-round in addition to preboiling, and if no change there, then I'll add naturally carbonating in the keg to the process
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Don't be scared about changing more than 1 variable at time. You're not publishing peer reviewed scientific research here... If you only ever change 1 thing at a time your pace of progress will be very slow. Now with that said don't try to change 10 things, if anything because it make a lot more room for error.
I think the best way to see that the low oxygen process is real is to just do the mash. Even if you don't execute the rest of the process (light boiling, yeast, spunding, etc) and lose those flavors, you will at least observe them in the mash and know what you've done has changed the wort.
As others have said... hard boil your strike water for 5 (max 10) minutes. Rapidly chill to strike temp. Add your minerals and sulfites (10-20 ppm) at about 200F, slowly underlet the mash, give it a stir, and continue as normal. You can't really skip this part of the process (unless you use the yeast method, but that's another topic). It's as simple as pre-boil, sulfites and underlet slowly. A mash cap helps but isn't strictly necessary. Take small samples of your wort through the process and taste them. The other obvious sensory different is the lack of mash aroma. If it still smells strongly you didn't get the oxygen out of the water or are introducing too much.
OP
OP
Changing multiple variables all at once and then assigning all of the benefits to a single attribute makes my engineering spidey senses tingle...
Hornswoggle.
"Please help me solve problem X! But please don't tell me to use solution Y, even though solution Y has solved problem X for hundreds of other people."
I've said this previously, but show me somebody, anybody who has racked up dozens of medals/trophies/etc with competition winning LODO brews. If it were that simple (I'm not saying it's easy) then everyone would be doing it.
OP asked for other avenues to improve his beers.
I really doubt German breweries pre-boil and then rapidly chill the large quantities of water they mash with, the energy costs would be prohibitive. If they're already forgoing the time and expense of step mashing in favor of single infusion, I really can't imagine it makes any sense to waste energy pre-boiling. Having lived in Germany I can say with certainty that energy is expensive.
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Big Monk
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They definitely don't. Most larger breweries use column stripping methods if they desire de-oxygenated mashing water.
There is a difference between eliminating oxygen at the homebrew level and at the macro brewing level. Pre-boiling and using anti-oxidants is a "hack" used to approximate what larger brewers do through mechanical and physical means (i.e. stripping and square-cube law of vessel size).
I'm not sure where this comes from but at the very least most of them are doing a Hochkurz step mash with a beta, alpha, and mashout step. I very much doubt, given what these brewers, especially the macro brewers, learn in those German brewing schools that they single infuse.
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Big Monk
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As an experiment, the thing to do would be to brew a beer where you implement all the non-oxygen process changes, i.e. soft boil, spunding, underlet, etc. and then brew a beer where you implement those changes PLUS oxygen exclusion on the hot side.
See what you prefer. See what people close to you prefer. It isnt a contest. YOU have to like the beer you brew and if people you know drink your beer, THEY should like your beer as well. If you think one version of the same beer is better with different methods then that's a good thing.
If you try certain brewing methods and the beer tastes better to you, noticeably better in fact, then go with that.
If you don't think your beer can improve and you are happy with it, then no changes should be necessary, i.e. YOU are the best judge as to whether things improve YOUR beer.
OP
OP
I'm not sure I understand... Can you clarify the difference between those process changes and excluding oxygen on the hot side?
It seems like soft boiling, et al, are part of the steps needed to exclude oxygen on the hot side.
Just a point though, I frequently enter competitions. So yes... It really is a contest and I want to make better beer than the other competition entries. And I can make the best beer in the world, but if it's so delicate that I can't bottle it or fill a growler with it to share without destroying it, then it's all pointless to me. I don't brew just for myself. I brew because I like to share my beer and I have pride in my creations.
Believe me, despite what they (and yours truthfully) have learned in German brewing school when you brew big-scale every cent counts and one sure way to reduce cost is to maximize turnout. The likes of Augustiner and Co. knock out 12 brews a day per production line, this means you have 2 hours tops to go from mash-in to yeast pitching. That means around 50 minutes for mashing, 30 for sparging (or rather straining as they all use mash filters) and the rest for what amounts to boiling at those places. There really is no time for a multti-step mash, wet millling and saccharification + mash out is really all there is time for. They also pay premium prices for their malt as the specs have to be really tight since they cannot make any process adjustments in the brewery. On the other hand, they do get a nifty quantity discount on malts and hops...
OP
OP
I also just want to thank everyone for keeping this civil. Especially Techbrau and RPIScotty... I know you guys have taken a lot of crap over the last couple years and I don't want to add to it. I'm a skeptic, but I like to think I'm a fair skeptic
Big Monk
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Believe it or not, what you are likely tasting is the cloying sweetness associated with oxidized (on the hot side) crystal and higher kilned base malts like Munich.
Try this:
1.) Brew some beers with quality continental malts, a simple multi step mash, and good fermentation practices (cold fermentation and excellent yeast health.). Evaluate those beers against this cloying quality you perceive.
2.) If those beers are lacking what you desire, try adding in the soft boil and hammering down on your cold side practices. Evaluate those beers against this cloying quality you perceive.
3.) If those beers are still lacking what you desire, try adding hot side oxygen exclusion. Then evaluate and see what you think.
Keep in mind that a group of like-minded people decided a handful of years ago to pursue many qualities of the beers from Weihenstephan, Ayinger, etc. because they made observations like you have about commercial beers and their own beers because they found them lacking ion certain qualities. They developed and distributed some methods that allowed them (and they hoped others) to obtain certain flavors and qualities in the beers they liked that had previously eluded them.
That group eventually fractured but the knowledge is still there. If it's not your thing then "no harm, no foul". No one will jump all over you about it.
Yet if you have certain flavors and qualities in mind, do yourself a favor and read up on the knowledge out there. It's there for those who are finding a certain set of parameters lacking, especially in lagers.
Big Monk
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Believe me, despite what they (and yours truthfully) have learned in German brewing school when you brew big-scale every cent counts and one sure way to reduce cost is to maximize turnout. The likes of Augustiner and Co. knock out 12 brews a day per production line, this means you have 2 hours tops to go from mash-in to yeast pitching. That means around 50 minutes for mashing, 30 for sparging (or rather straining as they all use mash filters) and the rest for what amounts to boiling at those places. There really is no time for a multti-step mash, wet millling and saccharification + mash out is really all there is time for. They also pay premium prices for their malt as the specs have to be really tight since they cannot make any process adjustments in the brewery. On the other hand, they do get a nifty quantity discount on malts and hops...
I think the thing to remember, and what I could have been clearer on, is that even though they may pick a certain mashing temperature, they are sweeping through beta on the way and sweeping through the mashout range on the way to the boil, i.e. they are "resting" at certain temps for the time it takes to heat up.
I agree that things are done quite differently in your house vs. Weihenstephan, Ayinger, Agustiner, etc. but sometimes to try and approximate the final product you use a method that may logistically differ.
OP
OP
I actually do associate that sweetness with excessive crystal malt. I almost never use any crystal malt in my German style beers - at most I'll use <10% caramunich - But I think you misunderstand me, and I didn't express it well. My beers are not cloying - only Sam Adams has that issue. Mine have the nice dry finish that I'm after, and hops balance is based on recipe, but they are missing that upfront malt flavor.
I have read the paper and I understand the techniques, but it seems to me that some of these factors must outweigh others and I'm approaching it cautiously, from a diagnostic standpoint, rather than just diving in. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I do like your approach though, and I'll probably modify it for my own uses and try it
Big Monk
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I'm merely a hanger-on!
Guys like @techbrau and @Die_Beerery deserve much more credit than a lackey like me for hanging in there.
I have really enjoyed learning about LODO. To me it is why I love homebrewing so much. The grand experiment to make great beer. It is the spirit of homebrewing and am still surprised why it gets such a bad rap.
About changing too many tings at once - from what I am learning and how I see oxygen interaction, it is kind of all or nothing. If you make gains on the hot side but they fade quickly on the cold side you are not very far ahead. That is why I suggested one major hot side tweak and one major cold side tweak.
Hot side = creating more flavor
Cold side = retaining the flavor.
I did not add any of the sulfites and I may never go that far. I do not need to compete with Weihenstephan. The balance of easy to execute brew days and process is totally on my mind. Keep us updated!
About changing too many tings at once - from what I am learning and how I see oxygen interaction, it is kind of all or nothing. If you make gains on the hot side but they fade quickly on the cold side you are not very far ahead. That is why I suggested one major hot side tweak and one major cold side tweak.
Hot side = creating more flavor
Cold side = retaining the flavor.
I did not add any of the sulfites and I may never go that far. I do not need to compete with Weihenstephan. The balance of easy to execute brew days and process is totally on my mind. Keep us updated!
Another one of these threads? This is getting silly, I'm out.
Big Monk
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I always find it hilarious when the person adding nothing constructive to a thread is disgusted and bows out.
We’ll miss your thrilling contributions!
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
I haven't been to Germany but I really like Veltin's Grevensteiner. It has a unique malty character that I've never had in any other beer, including imported Ayinger and Weihenstephaner.
Interesting thread, thanks everyone!
I need to drink up some of my beer supply. All my kegs are full. I’m eagerly looking forward to implementing some of the suggestions given here. One question about carbonating naturally...how do you manage all the trub? I don’t whirlpool and dump everything from the boil kettle into the fermentor. If I then transfer all this into the keg to carbonate naturally, I’ll end up with 1/2 gallon of trub and only 4 1/2 gallons of beer.
Big Monk
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You need to whirlpool and not dump everything into the fermenter!
Limiting trub at each stage (mash to kettle, kettle to fermenter, etc.) is Key. You really want to take great pains to remove hot and cold break.
Obviously things like using a BIAB Bag for mash filtering, Brewtan B, kettle finings, and whirlpooling out the kettle trub will help greatly.
That’s what I thought the answer was. I do BIAB and don’t have a pump. I have tried manually whirlpooling several times, but wasn’t successful. I never ended up with a trub cone. Just a layer at the bottom of the kettle where everything settled out. I’m not sure what I’m doing wrong. What is the brewtan b for?
OP
OP
You're not doing anything wrong, that's pretty typical if you don't have the ability to whirlpool. I would suggest overbuilding your recipe by about 1/2 gallon and just leave all that settled gunk in the kettle.
For a long time I just dumped my entire kettle in the fermenter but I've since stopped doing that, mostly because of the hop matter it carries with it. I was getting some harsh bitterness from it.
The fact that it can cause staling in finished beer isn't something I've personally observed but the chemistry is sound as far as I can tell.
Brewtan B is a tannin compound that chelates metal ions as well as claims to improve shelf life of finished beer.
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