Dirt cheap RIMS heater

[Mojzis]

as mentioned the heater would likely work with a standard compression fitting... my 1000w one will arrive in three days I will post results.

Have you put it together?

 

[pablosbrewing]

This thread is pretty interesting. One snag on the copper for me is figuring out how to get that element in there since I don't where to get the silicone bungs. All I have seen are the standard carboy bungs.

Search for silicone stopper - most of the big online guys have them. One example

https://www.midwestsupplies.com/searchspring/result/?cat=&q=silicone+stopper

 

[Mojzis]

I finally got around to putting this together. I used 3/4" SS from amazon and one of the 800w heaters. I ordered two heaters, the first I was refunded because it never came. The second one arrived on time alongside the original order.

Both are supposed to be the same thickness but they are slightly different. I tried a 3/8" compression fitting but the nut is too large. I had to drill the inside of the fitting to get the element in. I'm going to try a smaller fitting and drill it out.

For what it's worth I brewed a batch with it and it worked great. I used silicone to seal the end but that didn't work too well. I didn't see any signs of scorching when I cleaned it. I ran it with a PID.

 

[mattd2]

This has really intrigued me, and seeing Mojzis tube on another thread has me trawling Ebay to find the required parts. My thoughts are to incorporate this into my very long and no-light-at-the-end-of-the-tunnel-yet arduino controller project, but to get it up and running I was think of using a cheap Ardunio Mini Pro to run it.
All in all I think I could get a stand alone tube with controller up and running for around $60 (with hose tails for the in/out). I have a similar issue that Alpha has with not living in the US so getting cheap fittings sometimes get stung with crazy shipping costs. I have found a couple of Chinese suppliers with "free" shipping and pretty cheap unit costs for fittings. I have also gone for a 1/2" tube design and 6mm heater (only 400W but should be able to maintain temps) due to restrictions in what these suppliers do offer!
Tube

• Heater $8.50
• 1/2" x 75mm Barrel Nipple $1.90
• 1/2" Tee 2x $3.00 = $6.00
• DS18B20 SS Temp probe $2.60
• 1/2" NPT x 6mm Compression Fitting 2x $4.50 = $9.00
• 1/2" NPT x 12mm Hose tail 2x $2.30 = $4.60
• Tube Total = $32.60

Controller

• Rotory encoder $1.00
• LCD + Serial board $5.70
• Arduino Pro Mini + USB/UART converter $5.00
• Project Box + Power supply for Arduino ~$5.00
• 25A SSR $3.50
• Control Total = $20.20

Total Build cost $52.80

 

[Bigdaddyale]

This has really intrigued me, and seeing Mojzis tube on another thread has me trawling Ebay to find the required parts. My thoughts are to incorporate this into my very long and no-light-at-the-end-of-the-tunnel-yet arduino controller project, but to get it up and running I was think of using a cheap Ardunio Mini Pro to run it.
All in all I think I could get a stand alone tube with controller up and running for around $60 (with hose tails for the in/out). I have a similar issue that Alpha has with not living in the US so getting cheap fittings sometimes get stung with crazy shipping costs. I have found a couple of Chinese suppliers with "free" shipping and pretty cheap unit costs for fittings. I have also gone for a 1/2" tube design and 6mm heater (only 400W but should be able to maintain temps) due to restrictions in what these suppliers do offer!
Tube

• Heater $8.50
• 1/2" x 75mm Barrel Nipple $1.90
• 1/2" Tee 2x $3.00 = $6.00
• DS18B20 SS Temp probe $2.60
• 1/2" NPT x 6mm Compression Fitting 2x $4.50 = $9.00
• 1/2" NPT x 12mm Hose tail 2x $2.30 = $4.60
• Tube Total = $32.60

Controller

• Rotory encoder $1.00
• LCD + Serial board $5.70
• Arduino Pro Mini + USB/UART converter $5.00
• Project Box + Power supply for Arduino ~$5.00
• 25A SSR $3.50
• Control Total = $20.20

Total Build cost $52.80

Can you walk me through assembling and programing the controller?All the parts are still on a slow boat from China

 

[poptarts]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/50-dedicated-herms-468563/
This system is cheaper and easier to make imo, flash your stc with stc-1000+ and you have a very nice HERMS system.

 

[alphaomega]

I've just released the mash control firmware for the stc. It will be better suited for the task, but it is still pretty untested.
I don't wanna start any HERMS vs RIMS war, they both have merits, but I think that RIMS has the upper hand in a few key aspects. Cleanability mainly, but also smaller footprint and faster acting. A properly implemented RIMS will not have scorching issues. HERMS on the other hand can be easier to build and use.

 

[poptarts]

I just read your relase notes but not sure what they mean. Im using one of my STCs for powering my ghetto HERMS what benefits do would I see if I reflash it to the newest version?

 

[mattd2]

Can you walk me through assembling and programing the controller?All the parts are still on a slow boat from China

So I feel a bit bad now, Sorry but I was listing the parts I intended to buy to build this... and then got hit with some life curveballs and probably won't be into this until at least November... but since you have bought the bits I could look at building it vicariously through you
Once the stuff arrives give me a PM and I can start looking at it.
One other thing it looks like I missed on my first post is you will need to get the compression fittings drill through to allow the sensor/heater to slid all the way through the fitting. A decent machine shop should be able to take care of this in less than 10 minutes (an offer of a dozen beers is usually all it costs )

 

[Bigdaddyale]

I just received a bunch of stuff today.I have everything for the controller but missing the sensor.
I need to pick up a box and wall wart .Thanks

 

[augiedoggy]

Have you put it together?

I had an engine to finish building and swap this summer as I'm restoring an old corvette plus I was pretty involved in converting my camper to solar this spring so the brewing hobby have been on hold till now. But I have been pricing components and deciding on which way to build it ...
I do believe this will trim a some waiting time off of my brewday since I now have to wait to heat my sparge water up to temp until my recirculation is done.
plus I already have the extra pid which is only monitoring the output temps of my mashtun at the moment.
I think I will be building a larger "2.0" control panel soon.

 

[augiedoggy]

well I finally got around to building mine... I used 3/4" copper for the main body and 1/2" fittings at all ends. I tested it tonight with just 2 gallons of water in my mashtun which it heated from 76 to 153 (setpoint) in 35 minutes so it should have no issues just maintaining my mash temps.

My "1000w" element doesnt appear to truly be 1000w however since its only drawing 3 amps? its rated at 220v according to the numbers etched into the side and I am feeding it 240v so I would think the draw should be even higher right?

Regardless of this I am happy, I was able to use a 1/2" compression fitting wit a very small amount of teflon tape wrapped around the very top of the element... its holding up fine so far.

 

[mattd2]

well I finally got around to building mine... I used 3/4" copper for the main body and 1/2" fittings at all ends. I tested it tonight with just 2 gallons of water in my mashtun which it heated from 76 to 153 (setpoint) in 35 minutes so it should have no issues just maintaining my mash temps.

My "1000w" element doesnt appear to truly be 1000w however since its only drawing 3 amps? its rated at 220v according to the numbers etched into the side and I am feeding it 240v so I would think the draw should be even higher right?

Regardless of this I am happy, I was able to use a 1/2" compression fitting wit a very small amount of teflon tape wrapped around the very top of the element... its holding up fine so far.

I wonder if you have been duped, 220Vac is an odd voltage nowadays as I understand. Commonly it is 240Vac (220Vac is commonly used as a throwback to the old standard).
But lets accept what is written on the package - 1000W @ 220Vac gives a resistance of 48.4 ohms. You would need to be feeding a 48.4 ohm load a 145Vac for it to be drawing 3A, and be putting out 435W.
If it was 1000W @ 240Vac it would need to be supplied at only 170Vac to be drawing 3 A.

Now the interesting part - if it was actually spec'd at 750W @ 240Vac - that would be equvilant to supplying it with 230Vac (reasonably to assume this would be true) when it draws 3A (or 3.125A @ 240Vac). This would give an output power of just under 700W which allowing for some loss fits your test very closely = 2 gallons raised 77°F in 35 minutes

 

[mattd2]

I wonder if you have been duped, 220Vac is an odd voltage nowadays as I understand. Commonly it is 240Vac (220Vac is commonly used as a throwback to the old standard).
But lets accept what is written on the package - 1000W @ 220Vac gives a resistance of 48.4 ohms. You would need to be feeding a 48.4 ohm load a 145Vac for it to be drawing 3A, and be putting out 435W.
If it was 1000W @ 240Vac it would need to be supplied at only 170Vac to be drawing 3 A.

Now the interesting part - if it was actually spec'd at 750W @ 240Vac - that would be equvilant to supplying it with 230Vac (reasonably to assume this would be true) when it draws 3A (or 3.125A @ 240Vac). This would give an output power of just under 700W which allowing for some loss fits your test very closely = 2 gallons raised 77°F in 35 minutes

And what was the diameter of the 1000W cartridge heater?

 

[augiedoggy]

And what was the diameter of the 1000W cartridge heater?

just under 1/2"... about 7/16

 

[augiedoggy]

just under 1/2"... about 7/16

I now wonder if my amp/volt meter in my panel may be off when reading that low... my new 4500w element draws 18.5amps and my meter shows 240-242v tonight... less when there are other things drawing on my power in the house.
my older 4500w ulwd elements draw 17.5 and about 17.8 if I remember correctly...

 

[augiedoggy]

I now wonder if my amp/volt meter in my panel may be off when reading that low... my new 4500w element draws 18.5amps and my meter shows 240-242v tonight... less when there are other things drawing on my power in the house.
my older 4500w ulwd elements draw 17.5 and about 17.8 if I remember correctly...

I was thinking the output was closer to 800w myself... it is losing some heat by pumping through about 7ft of silicone hose and then sprinking down through my sparge arm as well so...

 

[augiedoggy]

Damnit! my edit button is gone and I keep hitting the quote button instead!

 

[Mojzis]

I have the 1000w also and I feel like mine heats faster than that. No real data to go by though. If I remember right mine draws somewhere around 6 amps.

I used the 1/2" compression, tightened the hell out of it then sealed the end with JB weld just in case.

 

[mattd2]

Damnit! my edit button is gone and I keep hitting the quote button instead!

I was thinking that's what you were doing... since I did the exact same thing in the posts before you! TX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[mattd2]

I have the 1000w also and I feel like mine heats faster than that. No real data to go by though. If I remember right mine draws somewhere around 6 amps.

I used the 1/2" compression, tightened the hell out of it then sealed the end with JB weld just in case.

Is that rated at 240V or 120V?
Any chance you guys can check the resistance of the elements - that is the only thing that won't change and will determine the power at a given voltage.

 

[Mojzis]

I tried to edit, but yeah.

120v. I'll try to check it this weekend.

 

[alphaomega]

Hi guys!

Just want to offer a few thoughts on this discussion. 220V, 230V and 240V can be used pretty much the same. Here in Sweden we used to have 220V but is now 230V. Still, a lot of appliances are marked 220V and people still often refer to 220. The actual voltage fluctuates some anyway (like power draw for nearby stuff, for example you can see lights go dimmer when the water heater or something kicks in).
Also, the heating element is probably just a big wire wound resistor. While you can measure it's resistance and get a pretty good idea of it's power draw, there will also be a change in resistance with temperature (depending on the type of wire used, this can be small to pretty noticeable I think). Also, I don't think they go to any lengths during manufacturing to ensure correct resistance, they probably just wind the heater with approximately the same length of wire and then rather rate it a bit higher to err on the safe side.

All in all, the rated power for the element should be used as an indicator, not an absolute. 800W measured with a power meter on a 1000W element would not be totally surprising.

Cheers!
//mats

 

[augiedoggy]

I have the 1000w also and I feel like mine heats faster than that. No real data to go by though. If I remember right mine draws somewhere around 6 amps.

I used the 1/2" compression, tightened the hell out of it then sealed the end with JB weld just in case.

Yeah I think I got one that was mislabeled.

 

[waverz]

Just stumbled across this thread and am thinking about building a small rims tube only for the purpose of maintaining mash temps and recirculating wort.

I already have a diy temp controller I built for my 1000 watt electric smoker. It's got a standard 120v plug on it so it can be used with pretty much whatever I can plug into it. I've even used it to turn my crockpot into a sous vide cooker.

I will probably use all 3/4" stainless pipe fittings from amazon along with a small 12v dc pump.

I'm not sure if any of this it's actually necessary but I have been looking for something to tinker with and being it's low cost, it shouldn't piss off too much.

Great thread! Thanks for the ideas!

 

[waverz]

Just got done testing my proto type. It didn't leak and it maintained water temp very well.

I used all 3/4" stainless pipe fittings, a 8mm cartridge heater, some swagelock fittings, and some brass hose barbs for my build. Most of these parts I found on Amazon.

The pump I found on ebay for under $20.

It works well but is very bulky and is much too long. I'm going to order a much shorter pipe nipple to make it more compact.

I was going to make it portable but may end up mounting it under my brew stand.

 

[waverz]

Made a batch of porter today with the new RIMS tube and pump. The new equipment functioned flawlessly. The problem was with the braided hose inside the mash tun. I little ways into the mash I noticed the flow from the cooler to the pump was greatly reduced. I may have to replace the braided hose with some type of manifold or screen. I think the braided hose got clogged with particulate and that limited the flow through the tube which limited temperature control.

 

[dyqik]

Even with those tiny eBay pumps, you have to restrict the output from them to prevent "stuck sparges" in the mash tun. You need a valve between the pump and the RIMS tube so you can reduce the flow rate (don't put it after the RIMS tube, as you don't want the possibility of pressure building up there if the controller goes wrong and boils the wort).

Most importantly, you need to start the recirculation very slowly to set the grain bed to prevent sticking. You can then gradually increase it as the mash proceeds (the parts of the grain bed that would stick gradually thin as the mash converts starches to sugars and the pump moves fine material from the bottom to the top of the grain bed - by the end of a 60 min mash I can run my Topsflo pump at full speed, where I had started at maybe 10% flow rate. I'm using a 12" domed mesh false bottom). Manually vorlaufing before starting the pump can help as well. You need to tune the PID controller for the slower flow rate to prevent overshoots.

 

[waverz]

Thanks for the input. I've read about stuck sparges but have never experienced one until I tried this system.

I was thinking about adding a PWM speed controller to the pump. Sure a valve would work just as well but a speed controller sounds more fun.

I will definitely try your suggestion about starting slow and ramping up flow over the duration of the mash.

Would you recommend leaving the temperature PID in auto tune mode while making the flow adjustment?

I did some more tinkering today and build a manifold and swapped it with the braided hose. I also reworked my RIMS tube a little and shortened it quite a bit. There was no need for it to be so long and bulky.

 

[augiedoggy]

Even with those tiny eBay pumps, you have to restrict the output from them to prevent "stuck sparges" in the mash tun. You need a valve between the pump and the RIMS tube so you can reduce the flow rate (don't put it after the RIMS tube, as you don't want the possibility of pressure building up there if the controller goes wrong and boils the wort).

Most importantly, you need to start the recirculation very slowly to set the grain bed to prevent sticking. You can then gradually increase it as the mash proceeds (the parts of the grain bed that would stick gradually thin as the mash converts starches to sugars and the pump moves fine material from the bottom to the top of the grain bed - by the end of a 60 min mash I can run my Topsflo pump at full speed, where I had started at maybe 10% flow rate. I'm using a 12" domed mesh false bottom). Manually vorlaufing before starting the pump can help as well. You need to tune the PID controller for the slower flow rate to prevent overshoots.

I use those "tiny ebay pumps".... I always start them at a real slow speed with my pwm speed controllers and then slowly turn them up to full power over the course of 30 seconds or so... over 30 brew sessions with no stuck sparge. I did have 1 or two that seemed to run slower though.
I do use a finer stainless braid as a secondary filter UNDER the false bottom though...

I actually just purschased a $70 upgrade- 1" stainless rims tube with a 1" camlock on the end so I can easily remove the element for cleaning...

I also ordered a longer 15" 1000w 240v element which should be less density than my current 10" one but in hindsight I should have gotten the 24" one. since my old element only had a 3.1 amp draw which is only 744w which if I did the math right makes 75w per sq inch on my old element vs 66 on my new one as far as watt denisity...