Cutting Brew Day Time the time challenge!

[jbaysurfer]

If you're going as far as isomerized hop extracts, why is malt extract off the table? Just do a no boil with DME and isomerized hop extract, pitch, clean. Brewday over.

 

[Owly055]

If you're going as far as isomerized hop extracts, why is malt extract off the table? Just do a no boil with DME and isomerized hop extract, pitch, clean. Brewday over.

That misses the point entirely............ You could just as well say..... Just go over to the local microbrewery and get a couple of growlers. The point is not how little time can you spend brewing....... the answer to that would be zero. This is about reducing the time involved in all grain brewing to the point where it isn't an all day project. I could easily set up to do large brews..... half barrel let's say, and my time per gallon of beer would be a fraction of what it is today. I brew 2.5 gallon all grain batches because I enjoy experimenting with malts and hops. I don't enjoy spending many hours waiting. This began with the decision that 4.5 hours to brew a 2.5 gallon all grain brew was absurd, and needed to be reduced.
I'm delving into the extremes, but ultimately will settle on a reasonable process that gives me good quality beer in an acceptable length of time. Yesterday's brew took an hour and a half start to finish including cleanup. I accomplished this by cutting my mashing time, and boil time, and crash cooling in 5 minutes.
I don't expect to end up anywhere near this number in the end...... It's just too rushed. I don't intend to ever spend 4.5 hours on a 2.5 gallon brew again. The answer that is shaping up is the unattended mash. With a hot plate, a 24 hour timer, a pump, and a PID controller I see no reason why I can't dough in before I go to bed, and have the hotplate and pump kick on, bringing the mash up to mashing temp. That's all pretty simple.

 

[adiochiro3]

Increase your grain bill and reduce your mash time. You can get conversion in way under an hour. Do a no chill BIAB with a monster burner and you should be pretty fast.

Other than as an academic exercise, what's the point? My goal is to enjoy my brew day and make nice beer.

I race a clock all day at work - brewing is my relaxation time.

If I was really in a hurry, I'd just do partial mash.

^This,^ except if I was in a hurry, I probably wouldn't brew that day...

 

[TexasWine]

Just gotta say, this has been a really fun thread to follow. Lots of great ideas being batted around.

 

[EJay]

Owly - this is a great thread. Thanks for getting it going.

I've been a 1 gallon AG brewer because I like to experiment with different styles. I'm adjusting my capacity, like you, to 2.5 gals, in part because a 5G pot fits in my oven where I mash.

I love to see you pushing the edge of the envelope. Now, for instance, even if I go a traditional route, I have learned that its OK if I cut, say, the mash short by 10 or 15 minutes. Keep up the experimenting!

 

[Owly055]

Owly - this is a great thread. Thanks for getting it going.

I've been a 1 gallon AG brewer because I like to experiment with different styles. I'm adjusting my capacity, like you, to 2.5 gals, in part because a 5G pot fits in my oven where I mash.

I love to see you pushing the edge of the envelope. Now, for instance, even if I go a traditional route, I have learned that its OK if I cut, say, the mash short by 10 or 15 minutes. Keep up the experimenting!

For us little guys, brew time makes a proportionally larger difference.

What I'm doing may seem extreme with my current record being 1 hour 40 minutes start to finish including cleanup, but the real goal is to find what works and what doesn't so I can hone in on a good workable procedure.

* I know that starch conversion takes very little time with a fine grind, but that the fermentability is lowered when mash time is cut too short. Clearly 10 minutes is just a tad too short. It looks like 20-30 minutes is probably going to be realistic.

* I know that there is a price in terms of more trub, hence less beer because of the finer grind, but that the increased mash efficiency more than offsets the trub loss. The answer of course is to counter the trub loss with a bit more water, so there's no net loss. I'm hitting 90% like clockwork.

* I don't yet know how much difference boil times really make yet. My most recent brew was half an hour, and my mash was 20 minutes.


***** My shortened process brews are finally being bottled. I'll probably be trying my first "speed brew" this evening. It's only been in bottle conditioning for about 5 days, but I can't wait to see what I've got. This is the brew with the 10 minute mash and one hour boil. I won't be tasting my "rolling stone" which was a 45/45 (mash/boil time) brew, until the weekend. I've been accelerating the bottling just a bit....... impatient, but I'm out of bottles at the moment.

H.W.

 

[jbaysurfer]

That misses the point entirely............

I think this is unfair. I went back and read the OP, it doesn't specify that it HAS to be all grain in order to qualify for your (Self defined) "challenge". If you're going to hold our feet to the fire on honest suggestions, you need to rewrite that whole post.

Other posters suggested hop extract, I suggested malt extract. The latter can save a lot more time then the former.

I humbly suggest your beer body and consistency will be more well rounded and repeatable by using malt extract rather then rushing the mashing process in an all grain brew. Just like hop extract, someone has already taken the time to process the grain for you.


I'm trying to contribute here. It's a public forum so I'm well within my right to do so, and I admitted to you I thought the whole point of trying to speed the brewday (beyond 4.5hours anyway) was something that didn't appeal to me, so I can see where the adversarial tone is coming from...

But nevertheless I've contributed actual suggestions to your thread at this point that come from a lot of experience. Try to lose the adversarial attitude towards me. I might yet come up with an idea you like that can help.

 

[RM-MN]

For us little guys, brew time makes a proportionally larger difference.

What I'm doing may seem extreme with my current record being 1 hour 40 minutes start to finish including cleanup, but the real goal is to find what works and what doesn't so I can hone in on a good workable procedure.

* I know that starch conversion takes very little time with a fine grind, but that the fermentability is lowered when mash time is cut too short. Clearly 10 minutes is just a tad too short. It looks like 20-30 minutes is probably going to be realistic.

* I know that there is a price in terms of more trub, hence less beer because of the finer grind, but that the increased mash efficiency more than offsets the trub loss. The answer of course is to counter the trub loss with a bit more water, so there's no net loss. I'm hitting 90% like clockwork.

* I don't yet know how much difference boil times really make yet. My most recent brew was half an hour, and my mash was 20 minutes.


***** My shortened process brews are finally being bottled. I'll probably be trying my first "speed brew" this evening. It's only been in bottle conditioning for about 5 days, but I can't wait to see what I've got. This is the brew with the 10 minute mash and one hour boil. I won't be tasting my "rolling stone" which was a 45/45 (mash/boil time) brew, until the weekend. I've been accelerating the bottling just a bit....... impatient, but I'm out of bottles at the moment.

H.W.

You know that 10 minutes is too short based on how many times of using that? To me, your .005 higher FG can be attributed to other factors too. My 10 minute mash ended .010 below what I expected, much bigger difference but I attributed that to a wild yeast because none of the yeasts I was using should get me a FG of 1.002 or lower.

 

[Owly055]

I think this is unfair. I went back and read the OP, it doesn't specify that it HAS to be all grain in order to qualify for your (Self defined) "challenge". If you're going to hold our feet to the fire on honest suggestions, you need to rewrite that whole post.

Other posters suggested hop extract, I suggested malt extract. The latter can save a lot more time then the former.

I humbly suggest your beer body and consistency will be more well rounded and repeatable by using malt extract rather then rushing the mashing process in an all grain brew. Just like hop extract, someone has already taken the time to process the grain for you.


I'm trying to contribute here. It's a public forum so I'm well within my right to do so, and I admitted to you I thought the whole point of trying to speed the brewday (beyond 4.5hours anyway) was something that didn't appeal to me, so I can see where the adversarial tone is coming from...

But nevertheless I've contributed actual suggestions to your thread at this point that come from a lot of experience. Try to lose the adversarial attitude towards me. I might yet come up with an idea you like that can help.

Jay:

I didn't mean to take an adversarial tone........ sorry if I offended you. I definitely did not mean anything personal, and welcome any ideas. I would hope that everybody participating in this discussion takes away something of use to them.

You are correct in that this was not stated to be exclusively about all grain brewing.....Your points are well taken....... For me extract brewing is entirely off the table. Not only is it not what I want to do, but it radically increases cost. My grain cost for a 2.5 gallon batch is under $3. With DME, the cost goes up to over $15. Clearly time has value, but this is a leisure time activity.... a hobby, and typically we don't value time in the same manner as we do when working. DME or LME knock over an hour out of a conventional brew, about half that when you realize that a half hour mash will do the job with a reasonably fine crush and BIAB. DME makes sense for a base malt, as I generally use 2 row for most of my grain bill, and you can do a lot with steeping grains, but it doesn't make economic sense for me.

We looked at hop extract as a way to shorten the boil 50% without having to double the bittering hops...... something that does make economic sense. On the other hand, I can and will probably simply use Summit or Magnum for bittering, if I choose to go with a half hour boil.


H.W.

 

[Owly055]

I couldn't resist sampling my "speed test" brew, though brew day was only 15 days ago. It was bottled 5 days ago. This was a 1 one gallon test brew that I "threw together" with what I had on hand, and ironically it seems that most of the "throw together" brews I make are quite good.

It is slightly heavy and rich (sweet), but not excessively so. The head is awesome, probably due to having a significant amount of unfermentable sugars in it. It's a bit "green" yet, but the flavor profile is excellent. First wort hopped with Motueka, Motueka at 30 min, and Nelson at 10 min, 4 grams each. Grain bill for a one gallon brew 2 lbs 2 row, 1/4 pound CR60. Measured ABV 5.2% when I expected a tad under 6% (normal mash) IBU 41 makes it work. A rich slightly sweet malty beer. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it........ In fact I like enough that I will experiment with the combination again.

In expectation of being a bit sweet, I hopped it higher than I normally do... I'm usually in the low to mid 30's. The result is far better than I had expected.

In conclusion, the ultra short mash (10 minutes) seems to be a tool to achieve a bit of additional sweetness. There really is no way to compensate for this sweetness other than hops. Leave the crystal out, and the flavor profile is going to change. Expect a sweet beer with a 10 minute mash.


H.W.

 

[Arrheinous]

If nothing, this is all a great discussion of what is possible now which even the crazy Belgians of the old days couldn't turn into a lasting style.

With things like sanitizers, pure yeast, well-modified malts, refrigeration, and reliable steel or plastic vessels we can do what wasn't feasible back then. Many of the styles and techniques we use today were made to accommodate those hardships that aren't a factor anymore.

EDIT: And doing it all-grain instead of extract is the goal here.

 

[jbaysurfer]

Jay:

I didn't mean to take an adversarial tone........ sorry if I offended you. I definitely did not mean anything personal, and welcome any ideas. I would hope that everybody participating in this discussion takes away something of use to them.

You are correct in that this was not stated to be exclusively about all grain brewing.....Your points are well taken....... For me extract brewing is entirely off the table. Not only is it not what I want to do, but it radically increases cost. My grain cost for a 2.5 gallon batch is under $3. With DME, the cost goes up to over $15. Clearly time has value, but this is a leisure time activity.... a hobby, and typically we don't value time in the same manner as we do when working. DME or LME knock over an hour out of a conventional brew, about half that when you realize that a half hour mash will do the job with a reasonably fine crush and BIAB. DME makes sense for a base malt, as I generally use 2 row for most of my grain bill, and you can do a lot with steeping grains, but it doesn't make economic sense for me.

We looked at hop extract as a way to shorten the boil 50% without having to double the bittering hops...... something that does make economic sense. On the other hand, I can and will probably simply use Summit or Magnum for bittering, if I choose to go with a half hour boil.


H.W.

Nah, don't sweat it. I've been made aware in another thread that I need to recalibrate myself when it comes to the internet. Thick skin is more mandatory now then ever.

Best of luck on your quest. I may have no desire to get my brewday as short as what you're pursuing, but if I can save myself a half hour on a brewday based on what you guys discuss, it'll get me to bed earlier (since I tend to brew at night....maybe sleep deprivation is part of my problem LOL!).

 

[Owly055]

Jay:
It looks at this point like BIAB is a critical element to time saving. It allows time saving over a conventional mash and sparge that is significant, and with a finer crush, makes it possible to achieve 90% efficiency, which is nothing to sneeze at. It also allows a reduced mash time, all of which adds up to an easy hour savings over conventional mash and sparge. A few brewers here have "gone backward" to BIAB from mash and sparge.

I actually built a mash tun and was going to put it into use until I bought the BC mill and started turning in 90% regularly. The mash tun became a cooler again, and a friend bought it from me........ I could see no point in going there. I don't see any reason to mash longer than about 30 minutes with a suitable crush unless you want a super dry beer. I already know that I seem to gain nothing between a 30 minute mash with a fine crush, and an hour mash with a more normal crush.

The other big time saver for me was building an immersion chiller, and ice tubes. 20' of 1/2" copper coil with a good blast of cold water going through it and 5 ice tubes (restaurant ketchup bottles with lead weights glued into the bottom, and filled with ice), I can chill 2.5 gallons from boil to pitch in 5 minutes!!

All I can do at this point is play with mash and boil times to see what really is needed. The sweet spot for mashing is somewhere between 20 and 30 minutes........There's not a lot of minutes to gain there. What I really don't know is how much I can cut boil times before compromising quality. That's going to vary depending on the beer. I know from testing a brew with a 45/45 (mash/boil) that I can't detect DMS, or any other negative qualities at that level. I don't see me going under half an hour due to hops. A 30/30 brew yields slightly over 1.5 hours. An hour and a half is a bit to hurried. I'm currently thinking that a half hour mash with a 45 minute boil is about where I'll end up, and slightly under 2 hours total brew day. That's a huge improvement over 4.5 hours!

As I mentioned before, I intend to look at doing an auto start mash.....doughing in at a low temp, and using a timer to kick my pump and a hotplate on, with a PID for temp control, so I wake up ready to do the boil.

H.W.

H.W.

 

[wobdee]

How much does base malt choice play into these quick mash conversions? I suppose most are using US 2 row that is highly modified, what about a less modified Euro Pils malt?

 

[brettwasbtd]

Just got through reading this thread, awesome stuff! Would you mind posting pics of your crush next time?

I am always looking for ways to speed up brewday and this thread is full of good ideas

 

[RM-MN]

Just got through reading this thread, awesome stuff! Would you mind posting pics of your crush next time?

I am always looking for ways to speed up brewday and this thread is full of good ideas

The picture I have of my grains looks a lot like every other picture of crushed grains but if you want to just imagine it, think corn meal with shredded husks mixed in. Here's the picture: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/photo/p1070971-62856.html

 

[brettwasbtd]

The picture I have of my grains looks a lot like every other picture of crushed grains but if you want to just imagine it, think corn meal with shredded husks mixed in. Here's the picture: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/photo/p1070971-62856.html

Thanks, definitely finer than I crush, granted I haven't ever adjusted the settings on my barley crusher. Shredded husks is a good way of describing it and it looks like your endosperms get busted about 3 times finer than mine.

 

[masonsjax]

Seems I adjust my barley crusher several times per year. The roller gap changes slightly with the seasons.

 

[Owly055]

The picture I have of my grains looks a lot like every other picture of crushed grains but if you want to just imagine it, think corn meal with shredded husks mixed in. Here's the picture: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/photo/p1070971-62856.html

What's the spacing on your rollers? I'm running .010 for my second crush

H.W.

 

[Owly055]

Seems I adjust my barley crusher several times per year. The roller gap changes slightly with the seasons.

I adjust mine every time I crush..... takes a few seconds using index marks I'm made.


H.W.

 

[RM-MN]

What's the spacing on your rollers? I'm running .010 for my second crush

H.W.

I use a Corona mill. There is no spacing, the plates rub when empty. It sound terrible when I turn it empty.

 

[Owly055]

Everybody suspected that I was a bit "cracked"........... now you know for sure ;-)


I decided this AM to run a radical experiment......... 20 minute "inline mash", no boil, no chill, fermented "on grain"......... A simple one gallon brew, single malt, multiple hop. 2 lbs of American 2 row, strike water 2 gallons + 3 pints.

I first made "hop tea"........... a half hour process. Some Magnum boiled 20 min, some Amarillo 10 min, and a 1 min addition of Mosaic. I did this while I was making breakfast, and used a pint of water.

Later, I doughed in at 130, raising the temp to 152, stirring constantly, turned the heat off, and played around between 145 and 152 for 20 minutes. This seems to give 100% conversion plus excellent attenuation (with .010 crush). During this time, I added my hop tea.

I then did a 180F mashout, let it cool slightly, and added some more mosaic, and poured the works into my 2 gallon fermenter.

After lunch, I'll pitch yeast..........

Needless to say, I have a LOT of trub (grain), but no break material. The two gallon fermenter is almost 3/4 full with a little over 1/3 of that being trub. It's going to be interesting to see what happens after fermentation........ How much trub will be left?? I expect about 3L recovery... maybe a little more. When I go to cold crash, I'll siphon the liquid off the top, then pour the rest through a sterile strainer.

Since I'm pushing the limits, why not go all the way? There was talk recently about no boil (Arrheinous), and hop extracts. I know the Sake folks brew "on grain". Keeping the temp down to 180 (mash out), I don't see tannins being an issue. Are there any more rules I can break? ;-)

H.W.

 

[EJay]

Just be clear, you're fermenting the entire mash (grain and all?)

If so, I'm very interested to see how this turns out. I don't know ph-wise what the beer goes through during fermentation, so I am curious if there's any tannin extraction issues.

In wine (I work for a commercial winery) it is normal to ferment reds on the skins... but we also get a lot of tannins out of it when we do. I have no idea if this is applicable to grain and beer

 

[Owly055]

Just be clear, you're fermenting the entire mash (grain and all?)

If so, I'm very interested to see how this turns out. I don't know ph-wise what the beer goes through during fermentation, so I am curious if there's any tannin extraction issues.

In wine (I work for a commercial winery) it is normal to ferment reds on the skins... but we also get a lot of tannins out of it when we do. I have no idea if this is applicable to grain and beer

That's exactly what I'm doing.............. Grain and all. Like I mentioned before, the Saki people do it with rice. I don't expect phenomenal results, but they ought to be interesting.

I'm testing multiple things here:

Hop Tea
No Boil
No Chill
Ferment on Grain

and of course my 20 minute mash, which I already know works well with good attenuation on my .010 crush........

If you don't count the time making hop tea, which could have been done while heating / mashing, the process took well under an hour including milling grain. The only cleanup was the brew kettle, a saucepan (and a jar which I needn't have used), and a wooden spoon. Nothing else was used........ except the refractometers. About 50 total minutes. A new record brew day ;-).

I look forward to trying the results, but that's several weeks off yet.

My last test,which was a "speed brew" with an ultra short mash was highly successful........ It helped me pin down a mash time I'm comfortable with, which is in the 20 minute range. Conversion happened very rapidly (about 5 min), but attenuation was a bit low
But there is a sliver lining....... The resulting beer was phenomenal.....a rich, slightly sweet red beer with the best hop combo I've run across yet......... because they were what I had open!! (Motueka / Nelson)........ It just worked!!

H.W.

 

[Arrheinous]

Fermenting on grain sounds like a neat trial. Someone around here was talking about why grapes are fermented on must to make wine and beer isn't fermented on grain.

I'd be concerned about whatever the grain husks can harbor and protect from the hot water - if possible.

The other issue, which hasn't been discussed, is that grain tends to be dirty. It's a farm product. There's bugs and maybe other things you wouldn't want to steep into the wort.

Then again, if you boil the wort then all those bug guts get homogenized.

 

[EJay]

You're well on your way to "instant beer". By the time you're done with this, you'll be down to a tea bag with hops and grain. Put it in a container with warm water, stir it, give the yeast a couple minutes to do their thing. Drop in an alka seltzer for carbonation, put on the lid, rest it on ice for 2 minutes

 

[Owly055]

You're well on your way to "instant beer". By the time you're done with this, you'll be down to a tea bag with hops and grain. Put it in a container with warm water, stir it, give the yeast a couple minutes to do their thing. Drop in an alka seltzer for carbonation, put on the lid, rest it on ice for 2 minutes

Interestingly, I pitched top crop from an adjacent fermenter that was in high krausen, and I was seeing serious fermentation within half an hour......... I'm a "major league overpitcher" ............ But I've never seen fermentation that vigorous that fast. It wasn't just a bubble now and then, a steady percolation like a coffee pot. That was many hours ago now, and the entire thing is "boiling" in the usual fashion for a fermenter in full swing.... grain particles rising and falling, and almost an inch of krausen. I pitched at about 1:00, and it's now 8:22 pm. This isn't going to take long!!

I'm curious as to how much the sediment will compact when fermentation is through.

I have no intention of making beer this way obviously.............But I also have no intention of taking 4.5 hours to the brew again. I've established to my satisfaction that the 20 minute mash gives both full conversion and good attenuation. I think a 30 minute vigorous boil is probably as short as is realistic without something sophisticated like an airstone blasting it with CO2 or nitrogen to help remove volatiles like DMS.

This is just a fun experiment at the cost of a dollar's worth of grain, and about the same in hops. 2 bucks is pretty cheap "entertainment"..............

H.W.

 

[Owly055]

Everybody suspected that I was a bit "cracked"........... now you know for sure ;-)


I decided this AM to run a radical experiment......... 20 minute "inline mash", no boil, no chill, fermented "on grain"......... A simple one gallon brew, single malt, multiple hop. 2 lbs of American 2 row, strike water 2 gallons + 3 pints.



H.W.

Oops............... I made a typo........ It was one gallon plus 3 pints strike water.

H.W.

 

[Owly055]

I've given a great deal of thought to this whole time reduction program, and clearly the mash time can be cut very significantly, but at the cost of having to babysit the mash for a little over half an hour as it heats from 130 tap water to mash temp through the conversion process, and up to the boil.

By babysit, I mean manage the temp and stir pretty steadily..........Not a really demanding undertaking, but slightly more than an ordinary process of heat to strike temp, and dough in, wrap with insulation and forget it for half an hour to an hour. The big issue is managing temp once in the mash range. Keeping the pot stirred so there aren't hot spots, and so the thermocouple gets an accurate reading is a process that requires pretty complete attention for awhile. Temp management is difficult, where an insulated mash process is far less demanding.

The ultra fine crush I've been using produces more trub..........not a big deal, but more trub equals less beer.

My attempt to use recirculation with BIAB was a failure........... it's as simple as that. With the fine crush, the bag plugged up, even with the low flow I was using, and I'm not satisfied that the flow I was using was sufficient to manage temp well. It had the big plus of giving me a fairly accuate thermocouple reading due to the steady flow.

My intention was to move toward automated recirculated BIAB, and that may still be viable if I go to a less extreme crush. I like the idea of doughing in at bedtime and waking up with a mash ready to go to boil. My next experiment will be to go to a more moderate crush and recirculate.

**** My original (way back) plan of using a reverse circulation rims system keeps coming back to me, and I'm going to build it. It will use a chugger pump for sufficient flow, and measure temp coming from a ported brew kettle using a thermocouple. The "grain basket" will be another stainless steel pot....... smaller one.... elevated on legs above the main brew kettle. It will be ported in the bottom (straight down), with a screen a short distance above the bottom, then the grain above that, and another screen above that. It will be ported again a bit higher for a return line the brew kettle. The pump will push the strike water / wort up through the grain basket, and it will return to the kettle.

The advantage of this system is that the grain will remain dry until the process starts, so It can all be set up in advance and start on a timer. A single solenoid valve will allow the pump to return water to the kettle while the strike water is heating, and a thermostat will close the valve to force the water to circulate up through the grain bed. When the process stops, everything in the grain tube will simply drain back through the bottom screen and pump into the brew kettle. This can all happen automatically.

With this kind of system, I don't really care how long the mash takes........

H.W.

 

[Owly055]

My experimental on grain ferment with a no boil process looks like it was something of a failure. Attenuation was poor, and I don't care for the flavor at all. It stopped fermenting fairly quickly.

What is interesting is that it warms all the way down when you sip it..... like a shot of whiskey. Needless to say it is not even bottled yet, I'm tasting it straight from the fermenter. It also looks like it may have the beginnings of a lacto issue.

All in all I can't call it a success, in fact it may end up being a "dumper". I used only 2 lbs of grain, so I'm not out much. I didn't really expect success, but wanted to see just how far you can go...... definitely NOT quality beer!


H.W.