Cutting Brew Day Time the time challenge!

[Owly055]

Brewhouse efficiency in terms of time can be measured as related to irreducible minimums. The irreducible minimums are 1 hour mash time and 1 hour boil time. Divide the irreducibles by the actual time and you have brewhouse efficiency in terms of time.

My last brew was 44% efficient in terms of time. It took 4.5 total hours.

I don't waste ANY time. I crush my grain while heating strike water, measure hop additions, etc, during the mash, etc.

Clearly the time is being consumed in heating and cooling.

I put hot tap water in my mash tun / boil kettle (BIAB), but my tap water is not all that hot.

* Step 1: Raise hot water heater temp to about 180F This will allow me to use hot tap
water as strike water, cooling as needed

* Sparge right out of the tap!

* Step 2: Pre-Crush grain

* Step 3: Set up a high output heating system, possibly using electric elements along
with a high output propane burner to bring wort to a boil FAST.

* Step 4: Build an immersion chiller ( I currently submerge my boil kettle in a pot of
cold water with a steady stream of cold tap water) AND freeze blue ice, in sealed
plastic cubes, and toss them in the hot wort


My current target is to reduce my brew day to 3 hours. I feel that this is ambitious but achievable. That would be a 66% efficiency. I feel it can be brought somewhat below this figure.


What is your brewhouse time efficiency? Divide 2(hours), by the actual total time including cleanup and pitching yeast.

As crushing can be done in advance when you have a spare few minutes, I think it's fair to not include this time unless it is taken from other "productive time". Weigh and crush your grain while watching your favorite garbage on TV...... during the commercials. If it's taken out of useless time like this, it's a free bonus.

How fast can we hit boil from 152 deg mash temp? Water weighs approximately 8.4 pounds per gallon. My boil is 2.5 gallons, or 21 pounds. It takes 1 BTU to raise one pound of water 1 deg F. If my wort is 150 deg at the end of mash, I have to raise it 62 degrees F which means 60*21 = 1302 BTUs. A 2500 watt electric heating element puts out 8530 BTU per hour, divided into 1302 equals .1526 hours or 9.15 minutes. Realistically 2500 watts is a bit much. Cut that by half and add a high output propane burner, and it should still be possible to hit boil in under 10 minutes.

There's not much point in being this fast, as I sparge my BIAB, but I can see hitting 15 minutes. If I can hit boil in 15 minutes and hit pitch temp in 15 minutes, I have a theoretical capability of doing my entire brew day in 2.5 hours........Not realistic...... but 3 hours IS realistic.


H.W.

 

[paperairplane]

Increase your grain bill and reduce your mash time. You can get conversion in way under an hour. Do a no chill BIAB with a monster burner and you should be pretty fast.

Other than as an academic exercise, what's the point? My goal is to enjoy my brew day and make nice beer.

I race a clock all day at work - brewing is my relaxation time.

If I was really in a hurry, I'd just do partial mash.

 

[masonsjax]

As mentioned you can mash in as short as 15-20 mins. I've had good results doing that myself. You can do a shorter boil too, maybe 30 mins if you use more hops to get your bittering charge from all late additions. Personally I enjoy brewday and I'm not too desperate to make it shorter, but I can appreciate the exercise.

 

[Dutchbier]

+1 on this is a hobby not a career. I respect your efforts but efficiency is not my goal. Listening to music, sampling good beer, pull a couple weeds in the garden. These are part of my brew days. Sometimes it is 5 hours snd sometimes it is not.

 

[mblanks2]

Other than as an academic exercise, what's the point? My goal is to enjoy my brew day and make nice beer.

I race a clock all day at work - brewing is my relaxation time.

Same here. I don't really concern myself with the time involved because it is my time. Sometimes I'm done in 4.5 hours and sometimes 6. I brew because I enjoy it and since it is my relaxation time I don't look to cut it short.

Personally I enjoy brewday and I'm not too desperate to make it shorter, but I can appreciate the exercise.

Same here, also.

 

[RM-MN]

You do have some misconceptions about brewing that add time. If you want to really cut your brew day to the minimum you can have started with sacks of grain and have your brew in the fermenter in as little as 2 hours and 10 minutes. Now how would I know that?

Since you mentioned that you BIAB, consider your hour long mash. Do you really need that? NO! Conversion (as shown with an iodine test) can happen in less than 3 minutes but you have to have your grains milled to nearly flour to get that and that's hard to do and still not get it all into the fermenter. I use a Corona style mill and set it as tight as it will go. That gets me some pretty small particles but not all flour so I mash a little longer to account for the time it takes for those particles to wet through. Lets allow 10 minutes for that.

It still takes a while for my water to heat up but like you I mill my grains during that time. I start with cold water because my hot water has run through a softener and I don't want to use that. Since I planned to "no chill", my boil time is 45 minutes and I might be able to go shorter with different hops for bittering but there is still a minimum time required to ensure that I don't end up with DMS in my fermenter.

When the boil is over I dumped the entire amount of wort directly into a fermenter bucket. They are safe to 250F. so boiling wort won't hurt them. Put the lid on and fill the airlock with starsan solution to the minumum to form an airlock so it doesn't get sucked back as the wort cools. When it gets to pitching temp, add the yeast.

Now, that isn't my normal brew session, I do like to spend a bit more time than that but I had to experiment to see how short of a brew day I could make. I usually spend more like 3 1/2 as I take the time for the 30 minute mash and an hour long boil and chill the wort with a tub of cold water.

 

[Conan]

Staying with hour mashing and boiling, the next best bet is like you said- a better chiller. Add in faster heating and that's a large chunk of time deleted from the day.
My brew day takes 4.5 hours for one batch or 6 hours for two, all grain, 5 gallon batches. Mash one while the other boils, etc. I don't need a short brew day but also don't want to spend all day waiting for water to boil. A single batch isn't rushed at all. I prefer to work a lot at the start, getting everything set up and ready so I can relax the rest of the brew and toss in some hops. Kyle

 

[Weezy]

Double crush, no sparge, BIAB=2 hours from mill to chill.

Dump hot to a corney fermenter, seal it, and put the keg in the pool.

 

[fmr_army]

The following input might be the lamest that you'll get: I'm usually not in a rush to finish my brew day, but have thought about doing the heatstick-on-a-timer trick so that the water preheats while I sleep.

 

[Owly055]

If I gave the impression that I wanted to "rush through my brew day to get it over with", that was not my intent at all. I enjoy my brew day. I DON'T enjoy long waits. To me brewing is an "activity", and spending more time waiting than anything else seems pointless. It's about creating good beer........... and for me inventing and experimenting are what make it a real pleasure. I enjoy improving my equipment and developing new techniques, as well as creating recipes.

I'm designing some equipment to make the job simpler and more accurate. A reverse circulation system based very loosely on the Braumeister, but with the pump on top, drawing out of the "grain tube", transferring it to the kettle so gravity creates the circulation up through the grain bed. An extremely simple system that uses a coolant pump ($50 approx). The system is based on an inexpensive brewing bag and a cheap aluminum stockpot, and a few other odds and ends.

I'm also in the process of designing a replacement for my range..... I live alone in my own home, so nobody can tell me what I can and cannot do ;-)... The cooktop will consist of one monster propane burner (for brewing), and one ordinary one, as well as two induction burners, all set in a concrete countertop (home built), with a combo microwave / induction oven below.
The problem is finding a high output burner that runs on household propane pressure. The first stage is going to be to buy an outdoor type high output burner and experiment with orifice sizes, mainly the main jet. Household propane pressure is less than half a pound per square inch. The big burners all use adjustable regulators. It might be an insurmountable obstacle, but I doubt it.

H.W.

 

[HarborTownBrewing]

I can relate to your desire to develop new techniques: I'm trying to tweak my set up a bit to save some time - at this point I seem to be spend the most time waiting on the boil, and chilling the wort. I'd rather be brewing than sitting on a chair in the kitchen watching the thermometer slowly tick upwards while I eat my hot pocket.

The boil: little I can do. I'm limited by my stove, but I do what I can to keep the heat contained.

The chill: I just rigged up a mod to my immersion chiller. I found that with my previous chiller the bottom or so half of the wort would be nice and cool, but as soon as I moved my thermometer up in the pot my temp was 30+ degrees higher on the upper portion of wort because the wort chiller wasn't supplying cool enough water by the time it got to the top of the chiller. This past weekend I added a second immersion chiller which wraps around the outside of my prior chiller, offset about 2" from the previous one. It tee's off the supply/return lines, but inverts the water so I'm supplying cold water to the top of one chiller loop and to the bottom of the other chiller loop. I found that this cooled my wort evenly and quickly this past weekend.

I seem to usually finish in 5 hours - 6 hours by the time I return the kitchen to being completely clean. It's not bad, but I'd love to save an hour or so if I could. But hey - I usually end up making a day out of it and enjoy it the best I can.

 

[tadkays]

I did 5.5 hours last Saturday start to finish including clean-up.

• 30 mins equipment set up, measure & mill grains
• 50 mins measure water, heat to strike temp, add to tun, mix/stir, establish mash temp
• 60 mins mash rest, heat sparge water, measure hops
• 30 mins batch sparging/draining to kettle
• 20 mins bring wort to boil
• 60 mins boil
• 20 mins hop stand/whirlpool
• 30 mins chill wort
• 20 mins siphon to carboy, begin clean up
• 10 mins aerate & pitch, finish clean up

It was a great day to make an all Jaryllo hop Pale Ale! That's about as quick as I can do an all-grain batch with my system. When I finish draining the mash tun, I am roughly half way through the process.

 

[Owly055]

I did 5.5 hours last Saturday start to finish including clean-up.

• 30 mins equipment set up, measure & mill grains
• 50 mins measure water, heat to strike temp, add to tun, mix/stir, establish mash temp
• 60 mins mash rest, heat sparge water, measure hops
• 30 mins batch sparging/draining to kettle
• 20 mins bring wort to boil
• 60 mins boil
• 20 mins hop stand/whirlpool
• 30 mins chill wort
• 20 mins siphon to carboy, begin clean up
• 10 mins aerate & pitch, finish clean up

It was a great day to make an all Jaryllo hop Pale Ale! That's about as quick as I can do an all-grain batch with my system. When I finish draining the mash tun, I am roughly half way through the process.

I'm doing small batches..... 2.5 gallon using BIAB. I don't whirlpool, and my so called "sparge" is quite fast. It's done by pouring hot water through the grain sitting in the bag in a colander, and squeezing. This takes place while I'm bringing things to a boil. I've thought a lot about using a counterflow chiller and hopback, but that adds more pieces, including a pump to my system, and at the moment, I'm trying to keep it simple. I don't siphon anything, I dump my chilled wort into my fermenter. I don't worry too much about aeration as I pitch very heavily, using top crop from some previous batch. I crop about 4 times, so there's a lot of yeast, and I warm and aerate heavily prior to pitching, starting the process about 24 hours in advance.

H.W.

 

[DurtyChemist]

If I subtract the time I spend doing other chores around the house while heating/mashing/boiling then my brew day ends up taking under an hour. I do 6 gallon batches BIAB in almost the same amount of time as you but technically it's faster because I'm not waiting for a boil, I'm folding laundry and doing dishes so it takes me 40 seconds from when I turn the burner on until I see a boil, because its 10 seconds to walk to my pot and get a good temperature reading.

 

[Owly055]

If I subtract the time I spend doing other chores around the house while heating/mashing/boiling then my brew day ends up taking under an hour. I do 6 gallon batches BIAB in almost the same amount of time as you but technically it's faster because I'm not waiting for a boil, I'm folding laundry and doing dishes so it takes me 40 seconds from when I turn the burner on until I see a boil, because its 10 seconds to walk to my pot and get a good temperature reading.

I do a lot of multitasking while brewing also. Suspect everybody does.

H.W.

 

[mbbransc]

I suspect some of you don't have young children. I have two small boys and full schedules on Saturdays. I generally plan my brew days far enough in advance that it's not a problem and I can take my time enjoying the process and camaraderie with buddies. Tomorrow is not one of those days.

I'm brewing (2) batches tomorrow for a party but have a hard stop at 1230. It generally takes me 6 hrs to brew (2) batches. I'll be hurrying every step of the way tomorrow.

Also have to rack to secondary (2) batches in my down times; split batches for some experimenting.

I'll do as much as I can tonight; milled grains, measure out hops, set up burners, etc. Hope to be heating strike water at 630AM.

 

[MikeInMKE]

I found that with my previous chiller the bottom or so half of the wort would be nice and cool, but as soon as I moved my thermometer up in the pot my temp was 30+ degrees higher on the upper portion of wort because the wort chiller wasn't supplying cool enough water by the time it got to the top of the chiller.

I stir the wort the whole time I'm running water through the chiller, so there's no stratification.

 

[Owly055]

About to go on the clock........ Doing a trial Friday evening instead of Saturday AM. I'll be documenting every step.

H.W.

 

[Owly055]

3 minutes to grab brew pot, fill with 128 deg water, put on the stove, and cover

Mashing with 2.5 gallons of water for 5.5 gallons of grain. 5 pounds 2 row, and 1/4 pound each CR60 and Carapils. Total ferment is 2.5 gallons, preboil volume 3 gallons

Gathering other necessaries while heating. Grain, bag, insulating blanket, etc. (Note that grain was ground yesterday)

20 minutes from start, strike temp reached, (162 strike water)

Dough in, 3 degrees above target of 152, struggling with dough balls... crushed a bit too fine, or didn't pour in carefully enough. I need something that will pour decently.
5 minutes elapsed before dough in completed and mash countdown started. 4:25 PM

This is a 45 minute mash, so it will come out at 5:10 PM

Gather necessaries for stage 2. Colander, etc, and put sparge water on ready to start heating.

Measure out hops for first wort addition. 1/4 oz Nelson Sauvin 1/4 oz Nugget

Measure out hops for 5 minute addition 1/4 oz each Nelson, Nugget, and Amarillo+ Irish moss so I don't forget it. Only two hop additions during boil, an additional 1/4 oz Nelson dry hop at 4 days.

5:00 turn on element under sparge water

5:10.........remove insulation and set mash tun / boil kettle on burner, throw in First Wort Hops. Elapsed time zero as I began a minute or so before end of mash, as the mash is continuing until mashout temps reached

Drain and squeeze bag while wort is heating, and proceed to sparge while heating to boil temp.

Clean and put away equipment used so far, empty grain bag, wash and hang out to dry.

Sparge completed 5:27 PM wort not yet boiling

This is a pseudo sparge where heated water is carefully poured through grain bag, squeezing, etc, to extract remaining sugars. I do it ONLY because I don't have a large enough kettle to mash my full volume of water.

worry about boil over..... pour a nip of my favorite boubon.. I've had enough beer.

5:42 Full boil achieved. Will boil 45 minutes It took 32 minutes to achieve full boil. Will boil until 6:22

Set large pot in sink, get out immersion chiller and connect hoses. Slosh the starsan in fermenter a bit, shake yeast starter.

End of boil will come at 6:22, 2 hours and 22 minutes from the start. I'm estimating with my new chilling system that chill to pitch temp will take 15 minutes. Immersion chiller, brew kettle sitting in larger kettle of cold water with a steady flow, and floating containers of ice. My target time to completion including clean up is 6:45, or 2 hours and 45 minutes. We'll see how close I come! It's clear that I have a bottle neck at the "heat to boil & sparge" point. 17 minutes to sparge, 32 minutes to boil. I need to speed the heating to boil, and eliminate the sparge by using a larger kettle. I believe that with a 2500 watt floating electric heater, along with my stove top heat, I can reach boil in well under 10 minutes. This puts my target of 1 hour per gallon well within reach for a 2.5 gallon brew. With a larger brew, 5 gallons or more, the time per gallon could be halved with the proper equipment.

6:17 Add second hop addition......... 5 minutes boil left (Nelson Nugget Amarillo & Irish Moss) start water in cooling pot, pull out ice tubes.

6:22 Quick grab pot and set it in cooling pot, put immersion chiller in and turn on water, and drop ice tubes in, grab a wort sample to cool for refractometer test.

dump starsan out of fermenter and get ready for transfer

6:30 Pitch temp. Lift chiller out, lift boil kettle out, set fermenter in sink, dump wort into fermenter, and pitch yeast 6:31

6:38 Finished dumping everything, washing boil kettle, taking gravity readings, and putting things away, and adding starsan to fermentation lock.


Missed my OG by 1 point, but only because my post boil volume was high. Actual real conversion rate was excellent, at about 75%

Total time was 2 hours 38 minutes start to finish. Grain pre-crushed. My cooling system was awesome with the immersion chiller (20' of copper), 3 bottles of ice, and the pot submerged in another pot with cold water running into it. 8 minutes to cool to pitch temp!! Amazing. I stirred it the whole time. 52 minutes total spent heating strike and boil. with an immersion heater (2500 watt), I should be able to reduce that to about 15 minutes, and approach 2 hours brew time with a larger brew kettle and pre-crushed grain. Clearly the 45 minute mash was a success....... We'll see about the 45 minute boil. I started this project at 4:00, and it's now 6:48 as I finish writing it up!

H.W.

 

[Owly055]

I hope the color codes in my previous post were not confusing. Time related activities were in red, in between activities in blue, and comments in green.

In retrospect:

1: Buy 5 gallon kettle so I can mash with full volume
2: Decrease mash time to 30 minutes
3: Drop strike temp 3 degrees to 159F More with larger volume of water.
4: Build a simple grain dispenser that I can hold in one hand while I stir with the other to
prevent dough balls. Just an extended funnel with a plastic cap I can pull off.
5: Build floating 2500 watt heating element
6: Return to 60 minute boil until I see the results of the shortened boil



I believe that a 2 hour brew day is entirely within reach without rushing, and without compromising my product. Most of the time brewing is spent waiting.

H.W.

 

[RM-MN]

I hope the color codes in my previous post were not confusing. Time related activities were in red, in between activities in blue, and comments in green.

In retrospect:

1: Buy 5 gallon kettle so I can mash with full volume
2: Decrease mash time to 30 minutes
3: Drop strike temp 3 degrees to 159F More with larger volume of water.
4: Build a simple grain dispenser that I can hold in one hand while I stir with the other to
prevent dough balls. Just an extended funnel with a plastic cap I can pull off.
5: Build floating 2500 watt heating element
6: Return to 60 minute boil until I see the results of the shortened boil



I believe that a 2 hour brew day is entirely within reach without rushing, and without compromising my product. Most of the time brewing is spent waiting.

H.W.

2. Decrease mash time to 20 minutes. If your grain is milled fine, 10 minutes may be enough.

4. Use a stiff wire whisk to stir in your grains. It will break up doughballs in seconds.

7. Use cold water for your sparge. It won't burn you if you spill and it is readily available right from the kitchen tap. It will take a little time to heat this sparge water in the boil pot but since you have hot, wet grain to pour it through, the wort collected won't be all that cool.

 

[Owly055]

2. Decrease mash time to 20 minutes. If your grain is milled fine, 10 minutes may be enough.

4. Use a stiff wire whisk to stir in your grains. It will break up doughballs in seconds.

7. Use cold water for your sparge. It won't burn you if you spill and it is readily available right from the kitchen tap. It will take a little time to heat this sparge water in the boil pot but since you have hot, wet grain to pour it through, the wort collected won't be all that cool.

It's hard to imagine a 10 minute mash!! I like the whisk idea!!

Here is a new program I'm going to try based on the idea of a 10 minute mash:

1: Fill a larger kettle (5 gal) with the full 3.5 gallons of strike water at 130 deg from my
hot water tap.
2: Put the kettle on the stove and turn the heat on.
3: Immediately add the grain (at 130)
4: At 165, pull the grain bag out and drain it, and add first wort hops. This should be
about 28 minutes into the heat.
5: Continue on to the boil, etc (60 min)

The grain will dwell in the mashing range for about 15 minutes, and the mash will speed up as the temp goes up. With this process, I should have a total time of about 5 minutes setup, 28 minutes of heating / mashing, 60 minutes of boil, 8 minutes of cooling, and about 10 minutes of cleanup for a total of 111 minutes. An hour and 51 minutes total. I could cut the heat down at 152 for another 5 minutes in the mash range, and still be under 2 hours total brew time.

I'm going to try this on my next brew. I've got $2.50 worth of 2 row (5lb), and 88 cents worth of crystal and carapils(1/2 pound). $3.38 worth of grain in a 5 gallon brew, and about $2 worth of hops, for a total of $5.38 in materials cost using top cropped yeast. I spend more than that on 2 glasses of beer at the local microbrewery!! About 36 cents per bottle. I use EZCap bottles so I don't even have caps. It's a cheap experiment.
I just checked my blue enamel hot water bath canner, and my brew bag will just stretch over the rim......... barely. It will easily handle all my strike water. It will also significantly increase surface area, so the boil will do it's job better.

I also just discovered that the jets on my gas range are adjustable in a couple of minutes with a half inch wrench. Just lift the burner grates and tray to reach it. I can get a LOT more fire out of it, probably 50% more with no problem. This and the larger kettle means that I can go fast up to conversion temps, cut back and proceed through this range more slowly, the go pedal to the metal up to boil. With the larger surface area, almost 50% more (12.5" diameter versus 10.5" diameter), and a harder boil, I'll feel better about a 45 minute boil. I won't be doing short boils for the next two brews......... until I'm able to sample this brew and see if there are any negative effects.

Thanks for the ideas........ You've really got the wheels turning. I'll take "speed brewing" to the next level. My new target is 2 hours, and I think I can make it!

H.W.

 

[RM-MN]

If the iodine test is an accurate indicator, I have conversion in less than 3 minutes at 152F. I can't believe it so I continue to mash for the 10 minutes. For that I have to mill the grains to near flour (more like corn meal).

If that is true, you will have a very fermentable wort as most of the conversion will be done by the beta amylase before the grain gets to the alpha amylase area. It's an interesting experiment. I like it.

 

[Owly055]

If the iodine test is an accurate indicator, I have conversion in less than 3 minutes at 152F. I can't believe it so I continue to mash for the 10 minutes. For that I have to mill the grains to near flour (more like corn meal).

If that is true, you will have a very fermentable wort as most of the conversion will be done by the beta amylase before the grain gets to the alpha amylase area. It's an interesting experiment. I like it.

I think it's doable............ Next weekend I'll try this. The one fly in the soup is that I will need to lift the lid and stir regularly to keep the temp even. A pump system that transferred the hot water / wort from bottom to top steadily would be a real asset. I have a little 12 volt "ebay pump" that would do the job, but no ports in the pots. My grind the other day was extremely fine. I used the "standard" setting on the BC for one pass, then adjusted the rollers much closer. I could go closer yet. At the setting where I was grinding for my second pass, the handle would slip if I tried to crush whole malt. I hand crank as it seems silly to use power for 5.5 pounds of grain!

I like the idea of the nonstop single heat............ I probably won't do the iodine test, just test gravity near the end of the boil. If it's within the target area, it's a go. If not, add some DME or Corn Sugar. I've used honey to save brews that fell short of the mark, such as my Kombucha Beer, where I mashed with Kombucha instead of water, and my chocolate stout where I added the cocoa right in with the grain as I was milling it. In both cases the mash was retarded, presumaby due to the foreign material, and my gravity fell short. In both cases the operation was a failure, but the patient lived to make a decent beer!

Howard

 

[lgilmore]

Just kind of skimmed your post, but to the OP, if you plan on doing what you said you wanted to in your kitchen, better check with your home owners policy. There's a reason the gas is what it is in your house. Altering things can work yourself right out of coverage. Check first.

If you're in a rental, even more important.

As far as how fast you want to go, there are systems where all you have to do is press a button. What you're doing may be a turn on for some, for others, not why we brew. I do what I do for the experience it provides, not to beat a clock. But I am sure others may think the way you do. Cheers. Check with your insurance company before you alter your kitchen in the way you've mentioned.

 

[Riot]

So I think I have found a better way to check for conversion than an iodine test. Yesterday was my first brew with a refractometer and I was playing with it during the mash. Samples taken 10 minutes apart had a difference of about 6 brix. You should be able to sample periodically until you measure complete conversion based on gravity potential of the mash. Anyone see any problems with this idea?

 

[masonsjax]

If the iodine test is an accurate indicator, I have conversion in less than 3 minutes at 152F. I can't believe it so I continue to mash for the 10 minutes. For that I have to mill the grains to near flour (more like corn meal).

If that is true, you will have a very fermentable wort as most of the conversion will be done by the beta amylase before the grain gets to the alpha amylase area. It's an interesting experiment. I like it.

You have that backwards. Alpha amylase will break down the amylopectin very quickly, resulting in a negative iodine test, however beta amylase needs time to further break down the resulting amylose into fermentable maltose. I'd give it at least 15 minutes, but I've had good results in my experience doing 20 minute mashes. Beta's ideal range is 140-150F. Mashing in the high 140s, or maybe starting in the mid 150s and allowing the temp to fall into the mid 140s over a 10 min period could potentially get it done quicker.

 

[Owly055]

You have that backwards. Alpha amylase will break down the amylopectin very quickly, resulting in a negative iodine test, however beta amylase needs time to further break down the resulting amylose into fermentable maltose. I'd give it at least 15 minutes, but I've had good results in my experience doing 20 minute mashes. Beta's ideal range is 140-150F. Mashing in the high 140s, or maybe starting in the mid 150s and allowing the temp to fall into the mid 140s over a 10 min period could potentially get it done quicker.

I was ripped for suggesting the "reverse step mash"....... awhile back which is exactly what you are pointing out. I've done exactly what you are suggesting...... and it seems to work. By your program, I would heat to 155, then turn the flame off, let it fall down to 145, then turn the flame back on and go from there. This would probably provide plenty of mashing time.

Howard

 

[Owly055]

Just kind of skimmed your post, but to the OP, if you plan on doing what you said you wanted to in your kitchen, better check with your home owners policy. There's a reason the gas is what it is in your house. Altering things can work yourself right out of coverage. Check first.

If you're in a rental, even more important.

As far as how fast you want to go, there are systems where all you have to do is press a button. What you're doing may be a turn on for some, for others, not why we brew. I do what I do for the experience it provides, not to beat a clock. But I am sure others may think the way you do. Cheers. Check with your insurance company before you alter your kitchen in the way you've mentioned.

I realize there are those who are put off by the idea of trying to set a time record for brewing. I'm NOT advocating that everybody should brew "on the clock", but rather trying to find the limits...... experimenting, playing, and at the same time trying to find a reasonable way to cut my brew time down. 4-5 hours for 2.5 gallons of beer is a bit absurd! I have a habit of pushing the limits and experimenting ........ it's my nature.

Thanks for the home owners insurance advice.....

H.W.

 

[Owly055]

So I think I have found a better way to check for conversion than an iodine test. Yesterday was my first brew with a refractometer and I was playing with it during the mash. Samples taken 10 minutes apart had a difference of about 6 brix. You should be able to sample periodically until you measure complete conversion based on gravity potential of the mash. Anyone see any problems with this idea?

Good plan: I presume you are using a normal grind. My brix reading is 15 on this brew, which means about 25 minutes mash at your 6 brix per 10 minutes. I'm crushing extremely fine, plus I'm doughing in at 130, so the malt will be soaking well before it's converting. These two factors should increase my mash speed significantly.

I'm going to do a mash test on a pound of two row, fine ground today, using the approximate temp ramp I was proposing.


H.W.

 

[masonsjax]

I was ripped for suggesting the "reverse step mash"....... awhile back which is exactly what you are pointing out. I've done exactly what you are suggesting...... and it seems to work. By your program, I would heat to 155, then turn the flame off, let it fall down to 145, then turn the flame back on and go from there. This would probably provide plenty of mashing time.

Howard

Limit dextrinase enzyme is denatured above 149ish so some of the steps in a typical step mash wouldn't work in reverse, but if you keep it under 160, you should be fine if you're just depending on alpha and beta amylase as most of us are.

Mashout isn't necessary if your not fly sparging. Go ahead and collect or whatever you do with BIAB and move towards a boil. Maybe that's what you mean, I just want to be sure that point is clear, seems it's still a part of many homebrewers' routines.

 

[BrewerinBR]

why I would rush through something I so thoroughly enjoy. Brew Day for me a cherished activity, planned for at least two weeks. Each step contemplated the results documented, notes taken on future improvements. Process of previous brew days reviewed and ideas generated for improvements. Researched through volumes of books and internet whitepapers. I have no intention of even considering shortening my brew day I find ways to extend it, look forward to trying new processes one step at a time. I enjoy and savor each step every nuance and subtlety.

Why are you in such a hurry?

Just my $0.02

 

[Owly055]

I conducted the amazing 10 minute mash test and was shocked at how rapidly the conversion took place.

* One gallon test brew using 2 pounds of 2 row and some crystal. Double crushed, the
second pass done at .010 spacing.

* Dough in at 130 tap water temp, and crank the heat up

* When the mash reached 145, I turned the heat down to prevent it running through
the mash range too fast, as this is a very small batch

* Stirring constantly, the conversion started happening big time at around 149. I could
actually see it happen. The milky liquid cleared and thinned into a nice clear wort.
Meanwhile the brix jumped rapidly up to 10, and stopped just shy of 12. Post boil brix
I mashed with 1.5 gallons of strike water for a one gallon brew (excessive), and the
brix well above my target. The actual conversion took about 5 min. There is
absolutely no doubt that I achieved complete conversion.


I learned a few things here, one, perhaps the most important is that conversion can happen very very rapidly..... as I was told, two is that when you are watching, you can visually see it happen. Stirring appears to be important....... at least I think so. I also learned that the iodine test is a waste of time. As riot suggested, the refractometer is extremely effective. When the brix quits rising, conversion is obviously complete.

In conclusion, it's pretty obvious that my steady heat program will work fine as long as I monitor temps and stir through the mash range. That puts my 2 hour brew cycle within easy reach. It also alleviates the boredom of waiting. I will have to stir through the heating cycle until I hit 165 or so, then I'll have an hour boil to wait through.

This test brew is in the boil now. I will boil it down to 3/4 gallon, and ferment it in a one gallon ice tea jug, adding sterile water to make up the gallon after the krausen has fallen. Hopped with Motueka fwh and Motueka 30 min and Nelson Sauvin 5 min. (4 grams each) The extra long boil to boil it down to 3 quarts throws my hop additions all out of whack, but who cares! As long as it tastes decent (and it will), and has IBUs between 30 and 60 (and it will), I'm happy. It should give me 6 half liter bottles of good ale, easily.


H.W.

 

[Owly055]

Brew day fast approacheth rapidly...........and I'm tickling my recipe just slightly. It appears that the 5 minute conversion test I did Sunday is going to finish about .003 above my target FG. That's pretty darn good considering the process. Dough in at 130 tap water temp, fast heat to 145, go up from 145 at about 1 deg per min, keeping the temp below 155 until full conversion, then squeeze and run on up to boil. Full conversion in 5 min from about 149-154.

I'm going to tickle the recipe I used for the 2 hour 39 minute brew with 45 min mash 45 min boil, but use the 5 minute conversion and an hour boil.

The original grain bill is as follows: 5 lbs 2 row, 1/4 pound each carapils and CR60

Dropping the Carapils lowers the OG by 3 points, and adding 2.5 oz corn sugar brings it back up. Corn sugar is 100% fermentable for practical purposes, and carapils is not. The result should be the same ABV, and FG, same flavor as neither carapils nor corn sugar effect flavor. SRM will be slightly lower. 7.06 versus 7.13, but that difference is trivial. The unfermentable sugars from the short mash that leave me with the extra 3 points of gravity should stand in for the carapils, so I should have nearly the exact same beer except for a slight color change.

Thoughts anybody??

H.W.

 

[masonsjax]

It would be more effective to go down in temp during the mash, allowing alpha to work first in it's ideal range, then move down into beta's ideal range. Your way should work fine too, but might not be as efficient.

 

[Owly055]

It would be more effective to go down in temp during the mash, allowing alpha to work first in it's ideal range, then move down into beta's ideal range. Your way should work fine too, but might not be as efficient.

I agree that it is not technically as efficient, however it IS faster, and corn sugar is cheaper than CaraPils. It makes sense in terms both of time and cost (to me). The way I look at it, the purpose of the carapils is met by the slightly lower mash efficiency. I'm gaining what the carapils would give me, from the two row which I'm paying 50 cents per pound for as compared to $1.75 for the carapils. I forget what the corn sugar cost, but it was far less per point of gravity than any malts at the LHBS.

H.W.

 

[govner1]

why I would rush through something I so thoroughly enjoy. Brew Day for me a cherished activity, planned for at least two weeks. Each step contemplated the results documented, notes taken on future improvements. Process of previous brew days reviewed and ideas generated for improvements. Researched through volumes of books and internet whitepapers. I have no intention of even considering shortening my brew day I find ways to extend it, look forward to trying new processes one step at a time. I enjoy and savor each step every nuance and subtlety.



Why are you in such a hurry?



Just my $0.02

+++1 on making your brew day a pleasure. It's a HOBBY not a daunting chore! And, if done well your resulting product will/should be something you and your friends/family can enjoy with you.
Certainly there are processes you can make more efficient. These come with experience and from sharing your experiences with others while learning from them.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[Owly055]

+++1 on making your brew day a pleasure. It's a HOBBY not a daunting chore! And, if done well your resulting product will/should be something you and your friends/family can enjoy with you.
Certainly there are processes you can make more efficient. These come with experience and from sharing your experiences with others while learning from them.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

We all view things differently........ working toward reducing the time spent is a challenge I look forward to, NOT a chore. It amazes me how many people automatically assume that my attempts to reduce brewing time are "a chore" and take the pleasure out of brewing. I get my pleasure from many aspects of brewing. I look forward to brew day as much as anybody else. Part of that enjoyment is designing my recipes to hone in on flavors I like, part from experimentation with equipment and technique, and part from the results. NONE of it is from waiting for things to happen. There is plenty of leisure during a 2 hour 38 minute brew day.... Time to visit with friends, to have a beer, answer email, plan my next brew.
If I dreaded brew day..... would I do it once a week? If I dreaded brew day, wouldn't I be saving for a Pico Brew, or Braumeister? Or building a sophisticated triple tun HERMS system that would do 11 gallon brews so I would be able to brew once a month instead of once a week?

There are many things people I know do and call "pleasure" that I can't even relate to. One long time friend is a famous celebrity........ I won't mention his name for obvious reasons. I'm amazed at his "power vacations". He owns property here locally, and comes out in summer, and I visit with him at the local watering hole. He's as excited as a kid coming to summer camp, and I love his enthusiasm. He outlines his plans, and they are scheduled right down to the minute. "I'm going to do this, then that, then the other thing, etc.". He brings the intensity of his life in _______ with him here, and seems to have little concept of relaxing and enjoying himself in a leisurely manner, as I would see it. He would go crazy hanging out with me for a week, and I would go crazy hanging out with him. We come from different worlds, and look at things entirely differently.

M___ doesn't advocate that everybody do "power vacations", I don't advocate that everybody take the laid back vacations I do. I encourage those who are offended by the idea of cutting brew day time to abandon this thread.........it's like porn. Those of us who are offended by it simply don't watch it, except those who get off on being outraged by it.

H.W.

 

[Arrheinous]

I've done all-grain, no-boil on the last six or so batches and those days are 3 hours from dragging out equipment to clean up finished. The Aurora Blonde was 2.5 hours because I only sparged once. And I'm getting 70% efficiency with malt conditioning and a good grind.

Run-off wort is hot so it goes into a brew bucket to chill (no glass!). After an overnight chill I pitch yeast. Using a fridge and agitating the wort every hour gets that down to maybe five hours of chilling. I can also transfer from the bucket to a carboy and I've found there's an average amount of trub.

Granted most of those were pitched with Roeselare but the Pumpkin Stout and Blonde are non-sours. A good mash out (180F), extensive use of mash hopping or a cereal/decoction mash with hops for IBUs can let you do this.

I'm experimenting with Whirlfloc in the mash and gelatin in kegs to try and clarify the beer which doesn't get a chance for hotbreak. The blonde is going to be my test case for this.

 

[Owly055]

I've done all-grain, no-boil on the last six or so batches and those days are 3 hours from dragging out equipment to clean up finished. The Aurora Blonde was 2.5 hours because I only sparged once. And I'm getting 70% efficiency with malt conditioning and a good grind.

Run-off wort is hot so it goes into a brew bucket to chill (no glass!). After an overnight chill I pitch yeast. Using a fridge and agitating the wort every hour gets that down to maybe five hours of chilling. I can also transfer from the bucket to a carboy and I've found there's an average amount of trub.

Granted most of those were pitched with Roeselare but the Pumpkin Stout and Blonde are non-sours. A good mash out (180F), extensive use of mash hopping or a cereal/decoction mash with hops for IBUs can let you do this.

I'm experimenting with Whirlfloc in the mash and gelatin in kegs to try and clarify the beer which doesn't get a chance for hotbreak. The blonde is going to be my test case for this.

I've never heard of no boil.......... I'd love to hear more about it. I almost felt like a criminal when I reduced my boil to 45 minutes in the face of all the people who insist that one hour is a minimum, and state what appear to be excellent reasons. I'm not sure how you get bittering without boil.

H.W.