Cutting Brew Day Time the time challenge!

[Owly055]

I second the 15 gallon for a 5 gallon BIAB.

I bave a 10 gallon and is really too small.

I also mostly brew lagers with pilsner and conventional wisdom is 90 min boil for SMS/DMS.

chris

I brew 2.5 gallons and am now using a 22 quart stock pot for a full volume BIAB mash. It works, but I could use another gallon capacity. I was using a 16 quart stock pot, and had to sparge........... It wouldn't begin to handle the grain and strike water. I'm not thrilled about huge equipment. My new 5.5 gallon stock pot is great, but it's also huge for my operation in the kitchen. The laminated bottom is a HUGE asset. It spreads the heat more uniformly. I highly recommend laminated pots for this reason. It's made temp control on my "inline mash" brews far easier, though it does have a "thermal flywheel" effect. It does continue heating the brew after you shut off the flame, though not too much.

H.W.

 

[Owly055]

It's important to note that not one of those probrewers on that thread is batch sparging OR BIAB brewing. They get by with short mashes because they do 90minfly sparges (usually) and conversion continues for a good period of time after that begins.

It's not exactly apples to apples. There is also more then just conversion going on in the mash tun, there is a breakdown of longer chain sugars into shorter chain sugars. You can get complete conversion without breaking down the longer chains and you'll get a nice full bodied beer out of it with a higher FG. If you give the enzymes more time to work, you can get those dry and (digestible as the Euro brewers refer to it) beers that many styles require, and many brewers/beer drinkers, enjoy.

There's a balance to be struck. Some dude on pro brewer says "conversion takes place in as little as 8 minutes" and it's off to the races, but make sure you're getting what you want out of your mash. That's the whole purpose of being an AG homebrewer isn't it? To exercise a level of control over your final product that extract might not give you? If you're going to do an 8 minute mash because first and foremost you want to cut time, I sincerely think you'd be better off using extract. If you can't low and slow a mash to get a very dry finish (ala Pliny the Younger and other popular "triple IPAs") then what you're going to get from high quality extract is well worth the time savings.

I know Owly said his whole point was to see how fast he could do an AG BIAB brewday, but I'm submitting some food for thought here. At what point are you missing a huge opportunity to cut time by insisting on a mash process that yields you the same product extract gives you?

The 10 minute mash did NOT give full attenuation....... nor did I expect it to. The 20 minute mash with a fine crush DID give full attenuation. I haven't bettered it by mashing as long as two hours.

Controlling the exact amount of fermentables is something that requires some pretty precise techniques. The crush must be exactly the same, the strike temp and mash time must be exactly the same, etc. It's something we may be able to come close to, but I suspect repeatability is not as good as we would like it to be. How many of us manage PH and mineral content as well as we could..... or bother at all?

The goal is NOT to achieve ultimate attenuation with virtually no residual sugars, it's to hit a target. Repeatability is where it's at for many people who brew according to a specific recipe. Go to McDonalds, and you get the same product every time........ It may be garbage, but a rat burger is always the same! Open a can of Bud, Oly, Coors, etc, and it will always be the same. Most of us strive for repeatability by replicating our process as exactly as possible each time.

Let me suggest that perhaps the long slow mash is sometimes NOT going to give you what you want........ too dry, and the 10 minute mash is not going to give you what you want... too sweet, but that in some cases doing a 10 minute conversion and immediately drawing off a percentage of the wort and taking it to mash out temps rapidly, while allowing the remainder to work in the Beta range for an extended period, then combining the two for the boil, might be a way to achieve a very specific product again and again.

But we have wonderful tools in the form of a large array of crystal malts. We have tools that the old time commercial brewers didn't.... And tools that the home brewer of yesteryear didn't........... I was one of those who brewed when it was illegal to brew beer at home (but you could brew wine) (60's). You could buy almost nothing...... light LME, and dark LME...... hop flavored or not hop flavored. You might find some garden hops, but you couldn't buy hops in the store. We talked about malting our own grains, and browsed the library for information...... it was scarce. We live in the Halcyon days of home brewing. Not only do we have an incredible array of ingredients available.....
(I have 18 varieties of hops in the freezer right now, 50 pounds of two row, various quantities of different crystal malts, victory malt, Melanoidin malt, Carapils, chocolate malt, roast barley, wheat malt, rye malt, corn sugar, flaked corn, torrified wheat, and a pound of amylase).

The suggestion that somehow mashing rapidly gives you the same product that extract brewing does is beyond absurd. Time, in and of itself is NOT what makes a good beer......... aging perhaps, but writing this whole effort off as reducing brewing to something equivalent to extract brewing is simple minded, and wrong. It fails to take many factors into account.


H.W.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Great post. I don't see how so many brewers can just trust others judgement so blindly. We have at least two users who have said time and time again that fine crush+short mash (20-30min) = full attenuation.

I'm definitely looking forward to cutting my brewday down by a half hour, and building a heat stick to cut it down another 40 minutes (heating to strike temp, heating to boil).

 

[Owly055]

Great post. I don't see how so many brewers can just trust others judgement so blindly. We have at least two users who have said time and time again that fine crush+short mash (20-30min) = full attenuation.

I'm definitely looking forward to cutting my brewday down by a half hour, and building a heat stick to cut it down another 40 minutes (heating to strike temp, heating to boil).

I got so wound up that I didn't finish the thought about what all we have today that we didn't in the past. More important perhaps than mere ingredients, we have the internet. We have the ability to research at the touch of a button, to experiment, and to share the results of those experiments instantly and world wide. If I for example have a passion to try malting, I merely have to use a search engine to find numerous people who have gone over the same ground, made the mistakes already, and found many useful techniques. I don't have to start from ground zero.......... I can build on what has already been done, and you can build on what I have done......... and someone else can build from there. This formerly wasn't the case. There were books, and not very many. The isolated experimenter had no way to connect with others. His reach was local, and the other guy growing hops or malting, or experimenting with mash times was a thousand miles away.
In the 80's I spent hundreds of dollars of telephone time "pulling the string". Calling one person about something I was interested in, and if they couldn't help me, at least getting names and numbers of others in an ever broadening net. It was the ONLY way to get in contact with resource people. My interests range from biochemistry to metallurgy, to electronics, to food science, to zoology, geology, engineering, gardening, construction, etc. There seems to be no end. Information is gold to me.

H.W.

 

[jbaysurfer]

The suggestion that somehow mashing rapidly gives you the same product that extract brewing does is beyond absurd.

Screw it. I'm absurd. I bet today's extract is every bit as high quality as what would be produced in an 8 minute mash.

You spent a thousand words condescending and didn't even address the reason for my post. The reference on pro-brewer to an 8 minute mash and the fact that nobody on this thread is doing a 90 minute fly sparge.

 

[jbaysurfer]

I got so wound up that I didn't finish the thought about what all we have today that we didn't in the past. Information is gold to me.

H.W.

Collaboration on threads like this is the reason for your gold. You should consider whether this thread is your bully pulpit, or whether it's about collaboration of ideas. Because not so long ago you had to make consecutive posts to keep it going.

 

[Beer-lord]

I usually get my gear ready, the grain crushed and the water in the pot (BIAB) the night before. When I get up and am ready to brew, I kick the burner in and get going. But as some have said, I don't rush because I truly enjoy every minute of it. OK, maybe not the cleaning but, I do the cleaning as I go and almost always am done EVERYTHING in 4 1/2 hours when I do a 60 minute mash and a 60 minute boil. Of course, longer mashes and 90 minute boils are different but they're just as enjoyable.

 

[ACbrewer]

I admit to reading the 1st page and skiping to the end, so I appologize if anyone else has mentioned this.

Boil time can be reduced by using more heat - heat sticks. BUT if you want to reduce your brew time, you can do that with a heat stick and timer. I heard about one guy who fills his hot water vessel up the night before and throws a heat stick on a timer in it. At brew start minus 3 hours (usually 6am), it turns on, and he reduces that front end heat the water time.

A second thing to mention is you get about 90% AA extraction at 30 mins, so is going 1 hour really worth it? You could add a bit more hops at the start.

As to the "I don't care how long, I'm brewing for fun" well some times we want to brew, but can't block off 4 hours to do it. Finding ways of reducing the time is helpful, at the same time, I'm not racing someone to make beer faster than them, I'm making beer that I want to drink and having fun doing it.

 

[Owly055]

I admit to reading the 1st page and skiping to the end, so I appologize if anyone else has mentioned this.

Boil time can be reduced by using more heat - heat sticks. BUT if you want to reduce your brew time, you can do that with a heat stick and timer. I heard about one guy who fills his hot water vessel up the night before and throws a heat stick on a timer in it. At brew start minus 3 hours (usually 6am), it turns on, and he reduces that front end heat the water time.

A second thing to mention is you get about 90% AA extraction at 30 mins, so is going 1 hour really worth it? You could add a bit more hops at the start.

As to the "I don't care how long, I'm brewing for fun" well some times we want to brew, but can't block off 4 hours to do it. Finding ways of reducing the time is helpful, at the same time, I'm not racing someone to make beer faster than them, I'm making beer that I want to drink and having fun doing it.

Excellent point about hops utilization..........

I'm unclear about your comment on reduced boil time. Do you mean time to reach boil, or actual boil time? It's obvious that the harder you boil, the less time you need to boil, and that's a point that has not been made.

Everything we are trying to accomplish by boiling is enhanced by a higher energy harder boil. We concentrate more rapidly, and boil off DMS, etc more rapidly

Having water preheated has been mentioned by a number of people....

I don't like any aspect of brewing........ except waiting. There are several rather long waits involved. If you can utilize this time, as I often do, it helps a lot.


H.W.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Excellent point about hops utilization..........

I'm unclear about your comment on reduced boil time. Do you mean time to reach boil, or actual boil time? It's obvious that the harder you boil, the less time you need to boil, and that's a point that has not been made.

Everything we are trying to accomplish by boiling is enhanced by a higher energy harder boil. We concentrate more rapidly, and boil off DMS, etc more rapidly

Having water preheated has been mentioned by a number of people....

I don't like any aspect of brewing........ except waiting. There are several rather long waits involved. If you can utilize this time, as I often do, it helps a lot.


H.W.

I don't think you could match hop utilization by a harder boil. Definitely reduction, and DMS boil off. But I don't see how the same IBU's can be matched, unless somehow you boil under pressure which sounds super dangerous and fun.

I think he was just referring to heating to strike/boil rather than actually boiling for a shorter time.

I also hate waiting. I've debated doing two side by side brews to increase productivity via parallel processes. Probably going to do that next time actually. 5G batch, and a 3G batch, since I have a 7.5 G pot, and a 5G pot, and two biab bags and if I delay the starts about 15 minutes I won't have to worry about waiting for the immersion chiller, or re sanitizing it in the pot 15 minutes early. Definitely doing this next time.

 

[Owly055]

I don't think you could match hop utilization by a harder boil. Definitely reduction, and DMS boil off. But I don't see how the same IBU's can be matched, unless somehow you boil under pressure which sounds super dangerous and fun.

I think he was just referring to heating to strike/boil rather than actually boiling for a shorter time.

I also hate waiting. I've debated doing two side by side brews to increase productivity via parallel processes. Probably going to do that next time actually. 5G batch, and a 3G batch, since I have a 7.5 G pot, and a 5G pot, and two biab bags and if I delay the starts about 15 minutes I won't have to worry about waiting for the immersion chiller, or re sanitizing it in the pot 15 minutes early. Definitely doing this next time.

you found the oversight in my post.............. Hops utilization. It was addressed in the post I was responding to. 30 minutes extracts most of the alpha acids. A hard boil will achieve the other objectives however.


H.W.

 

[goybar]

I enjoy brewing and would love to spend a 4-6 hours to do it, but I also have a family (wife and daughter) who don't really see me during the week due to long commute. I just don't have that amount of free time on the weekends. As such I don't brew very often anymore. When I do it is often stressful as I'm rushing trying to do things quickly and accomplish other household things in between. It is not relaxing or care free. Pre-kids it was different.

I'm very excited about trying the shortened mash times (and boil times) H.W. and others have done. This would make it possible for me to brew more often. I like the idea of doing quick 1-2 gallon batches. Heating time should be reduced with the decreased water volumes. This should allow me to brew more frequently and refine my recipes and processes.

Chris

 

[Owly055]

I enjoy brewing and would love to spend a 4-6 hours to do it, but I also have a family (wife and daughter) who don't really see me during the week due to long commute. I just don't have that amount of free time on the weekends. As such I don't brew very often anymore. When I do it is often stressful as I'm rushing trying to do things quickly and accomplish other household things in between. It is not relaxing or care free. Pre-kids it was different.

I'm very excited about trying the shortened mash times (and boil times) H.W. and others have done. This would make it possible for me to brew more often. I like the idea of doing quick 1-2 gallon batches. Heating time should be reduced with the decreased water volumes. This should allow me to brew more frequently and refine my recipes and processes.

Chris

Chris:
I think you hit the nail right squarely on the head. Brewing can be a big production involving large amounts of beer and consuming most of a day, and that can be a relaxing and fun day with friends and neighbors. But for many of us who brew in smaller quantities and love to experiment with recipes and ingredients, the time involved can prevent us from being able to brew as frequently, and from experimenting as much as we would like. I personally have done 33 brews since February when I began all grain brewing. I would be at 34 and looking at 35 on Saturday except that I spent 6 days hunting Turquoise in Nevada, including almost 2000 miles of driving so I missed a brew session. With my shortened brew day, I could easily brew this evening. I can easily start about 7:00 and be done and cleaned up at a very reasonable hour, or I can get up a bit early (5:00 am) and brew before going to work. I can basically fit my brew day in almost anywhere........ 2.5 to 3 hours is not a huge time commitment. If I can't sleep for some reason, I sometimes get up and set up my equipment at 2:00 AM and brew........ When I get done I sleep like a baby.

H.W.

 

[Owly055]

Brew day start 7:30 AM
grind grains........... 10 min
fill pot .................. 5 min (slow faucet)

Set pot on stove, high heat, drop in 2500 watt floating heater (new toy)

Heat to 150 F (dough in temp) 3 min!!! WoW (138 after dough in)


raise temp slowly to 152 over 30 minutes
Mash count down starting at 7:50 AM....... end time 8:20
Mash procedure is to raise and rest on the stove top with bottom heat, cycling the heat off and on. 10 minute rest at 145........ heat to 150 rest 10 min, then gradually bring temp up to 155 over the remaining 10 minutes, then full bore up to 160 lift bag and squeeze. The idea is to mash in ranges, allowing the temp to drift between stages Clean up mill and put stuff away during this period, and measure first hop addition

Full Rolling Boil 8:22 AM!!

Incredible...... I lifted the bag, and drained it, set it in a colander in another pot, dropped in my 2500 watt floating heater and cranked the stove burner in high..... squeezed the bag to get most of the wort out, poured the remainder into the main kettle, and watched for the boil. Elapsed time from lifting the bag at 8:20 and full boil was a mere 2 minutes!! It was far faster than I expected. As I write I am one hour and 5 minutes into the process, my boil began 13 minutes ago, everything is cleaned up and put away, fermenter ready to go, chiller out and ready yeast ready, hops measured out........

The biggest non-essential time consumers were chilling and heating when I began. I've reduced the chill time to about 7 minutes. My total times to temp....... tap temp to mash temp and mash to boil is down to 5 minutes!........... Talk about instant gratification. This floating heater is an awesome addition to my tool kit. The heating coil, plus the pot it is mounted to, plus cord (home made), and installation of a 220 outlet for the purpose all added up to under $50. The time savings are amazing. It's almost too fast.

This boil will be governed not by time but by final volume. I expect it to run a full hour.


Below if I managed to do it properly are two photos of my 2500 watt heater. It is NOT completed, but I used it as is. The connections will be insulated with silicon RTV, and I will install a ground connection for safety. I used it exactly as it is in the photos.... carefully.


H.W.

 

[Tutsbrew]

I enjoy brewing and would love to spend a 4-6 hours to do it, but I also have a family (wife and daughter) who don't really see me during the week due to long commute. I just don't have that amount of free time on the weekends. As such I don't brew very often anymore. When I do it is often stressful as I'm rushing trying to do things quickly and accomplish other household things in between. It is not relaxing or care free. Pre-kids it was different.

I'm very excited about trying the shortened mash times (and boil times) H.W. and others have done. This would make it possible for me to brew more often. I like the idea of doing quick 1-2 gallon batches. Heating time should be reduced with the decreased water volumes. This should allow me to brew more frequently and refine my recipes and processes.

Chris

Amen. Between a weird work schedule during week and one day a weekend watching grand kids I have one day a week to get the usual things done such as mowing, fixing or doing this and that. If I brew, not much else gets done and then I feel kinda selfish in taking that day for myself. Having said that, I would not trade my full family life for a life that would otherwise give me all the brew days in the world...

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Super jealous owly. Do you have some links for that heater? Would love to get one of those babies!

Did you build or buy it?

 

[Owly055]

http://www.sourcingmap.com/ac-220v-2500w-alloy-spiral-electric-water-heating-element-tube-heater-p-381203.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=froogle&utm_campaign=usfroogle&gclid=CMqK0qCQosACFQuOaQodJ04AOA

ONLY 15.79 !!

I built it of course.............. From a cheap element and a bowl from the Salvation Army, and msc parts from Ace Hardware. It is 220 volt, so I had to wire in an outlet.

H.W.

 

[brettwasbtd]

Well I am nowhere near the skills of others on this thread, but I did post my personal best today of 4.5 hours. Did a 40 minute mash (normal mill setting) and was fine with the book right at 3 hours. Chilling and cleanup took WAY too long, gotta work on that! Hit my numbers dead on 75% efficiency for a 6 gallon batch. Also doesn't help that I have to set up and tear down outside every time.

 

[Owly055]

Well I am nowhere near the skills of others on this thread, but I did post my personal best today of 4.5 hours. Did a 40 minute mash (normal mill setting) and was fine with the book right at 3 hours. Chilling and cleanup took WAY too long, gotta work on that! Hit my numbers dead on 75% efficiency for a 6 gallon batch. Also doesn't help that I have to set up and tear down outside every time.

Please keep us posted on your attenuation with the 40 min mash. My mash today was using a courser crush than my actual speed brews.... about .025 roller spacing. I mashed for 30 minutes in 3 steps. Conversion was fairly rapid, but I allowed extra time for the Beta to do it's work. I've had excellent luck with the 30 min mash.

BIAB is one of the keys to a shortened brew day. There is no time involved in draining the mash tun, or sparging. I run straight through to the boil from the mash, never taking it off the stove. Today I lifted the bag out and drained most of the wort, then set it in a colander in another pot to finish draining and squeeze, while the main kettle had the flame at full heat, and the floating element..... It all happened shockingly fast. I barely had the bag squeezed and poured in before things were at a rolling boil. I used too much water, so unfortunately I had to boil longer than I intended.

With brew in a bag, the clean up is minimal........ shake the bag out good and rinse it and hang out to dry. On the stove top as I do it, there is very little to put away or clean up. What there is, I mostly do during the boil. At the end, there is the brew kettle, and the immersion cooler, and my yeast jar........not much else at all. Those things are the work of minutes.

H.W.

 

[brettwasbtd]

Will do! Using WLP002, which looking back at my notes (didnt keep good ones) I am not 100% sure of my normal attenuation with this yeast, but I mashed at 151 so I am hoping for upper 60th percentile for attenuation. White labs states 63-70%. I have considered BIAB and can definitely see the time savings. I was thinking how vorlauf, runoff and then repeat for sparging was a real time killer. Didn't get up to a boil til the 2 hour mark - thats 80 minutes from end of mash to boil! Cleaning seems to be the little odds and ends, my mash tun is already clean and dry by the end of the boil. I have ball valve on my pot, but need to get a hose barb and hose so I can drain right into the fermentor. Using a racking cane is not efficient! Also have to lug everything up to a kitchen sink for cleaning.

 

[Owly055]

Will do! Using WLP002, which looking back at my notes (didnt keep good ones) I am not 100% sure of my normal attenuation with this yeast, but I mashed at 151 so I am hoping for upper 60th percentile for attenuation. White labs states 63-70%. I have considered BIAB and can definitely see the time savings. I was thinking how vorlauf, runoff and then repeat for sparging was a real time killer. Didn't get up to a boil til the 2 hour mark - thats 80 minutes from end of mash to boil! Cleaning seems to be the little odds and ends, my mash tun is already clean and dry by the end of the boil. I have ball valve on my pot, but need to get a hose barb and hose so I can drain right into the fermentor. Using a racking cane is not efficient! Also have to lug everything up to a kitchen sink for cleaning.

There are a lot of things to eat up time. I've never done the mash and sparge system. I started out with biab which allowed me to buy minimal equipment. An $11 20 quart stock pot from Walmart, a brew bag, and various odds and ends I already had. I brew 2.5 gallon batches, so you have a major efficiency advantage over me with your larger brews.

Brew in a bag used full volume mash, which was believed originally to be a weakness in the process, resulting in lower mash efficiency due to lower concentration of enzymes. This has been proved not to be the case..... for whatever reason. The time savings is considerable. Lift the bag, and crank the heat up while the bag's draining.......... I transfer it to a colander and squeeze. Draining the wort out of the mash and squeezing the bag is the work of a few minutes, and is done while the wort is heating to boil.

With a 2.5 gallon brew, I simply lift the kettle and pour it into the fermenter, everything is in the kitchen, nothing is heavy, clean up is easy and minimal.

Your larger brews....... presumably 5 gallon or so, involve inherently less time per gallon of beer with the same process. I have to brew in 2 hours to match your efficiency if you can brew in 4........ Economy of scale. I have no interest in scaling up. Twice as much per brew means I only get to brew half as often.
For me brewing is more about experimenting and honing in on what I like than about producing lots of beer. I've brewed 34 batches since I started all grain brewing in February.
I've only repeated a brew once. Otherwise every brew has been unique, though the variations are often relatively small. I'll be sipping something and say to myself, "what if that had a bit of Simco in it?" Or "The Nelson Sauvin is a bit over powering.... perhaps I shouldn't dry hop with it", or "that beer cold do with a tad more sweetness, should I mash higher or add more crystal". I will then make a note in my brew log, and craft a recipe on Brewer's Friend. I'm currently honing in on a recipe with Nelson Sauvin and Motueka, a combination I really like. IBUs in the mid 40's. Do I bitter with Nelson or Motueka, or use Nugget, Magnum, or Summit? Calypso works well in this combo as a bittering hop. My brew Sunday was a "clean up" brew. I had more open hops than I wanted around, so I picked a couple and brewed with them.

H.W.

 

[Owly055]

Today was brew day again, and I decided to do a speed brew with the specific intent of using slightly reduced attenuation instead of crystal or carapils to give body and a bit of residual sweetness.

Yesterday evening:

I crushed my malt... 5 pounds of pilsner, and a pound of Victory using a double crush, with rollers at .010 for the second go around.

6:00 AM:

I started filling my brew kettle, and measured my first hop addition while it filled. It takes awhile to fill in my kitchen sink.

Set the kettle on the stove, at high, and drop in floating heater

6:06 AM: Temp at 150 strike target. Lift heater out, drop bag in and dough in.

Heat steadily and slowly to 160

6:25 AM Lift brew bag, drain, and squeeze.

Transfer bag and colander to second kettle, and drop floating heater into wort
Continue draining and squeezing (quickly)

6:30 AM full rolling boil.......... lift heater out and add wort from second kettle, drop heater back in......

6:32, full rolling boil....... foam spilling into floating heater. Lift heater out

45 minute boil

Hop additions, prepare cooler, drink first beer of the day........... The sun isn't over the yard arm yet........ It's a ways from being up even!!

7:17 AM The sun is not yet up, but the sky is lightening in the East. Shut off the flame, lift kettle into sink..... inside hot water bath canner filled with cold water, drop in immersion chiller, and ice tubes.

7:23 AM lift immersion chiller out, lift ice tubes out, lift brew kettle onto the counter, dump water from canner, lift fermenter into sink, and pour wort into fermenter...... Pour yeast at the half way mark, set fermenter in position.

put things away and clean up.......... a bit slower than usual..... probably because I'm sipping a beer while doing it.

7:38 AM............ brew day done.

The huge reduction in heating and cooling times, the full volume BIAB mash, the fine crush allowing full conversion FAST, crushing grain in advance, reducing boil to 45 minutes, being organized, etc, all contribute to reducing the brew day to not much over an hour and a half. Brewhouse efficiency was roughly 85%, and I have a suspicion that attenuation will be very close to normal. Time will tell.... though I planned for lower attenuation.

I don't have process control / repeatability down pat. There are a lot of variables. Crush makes a huge difference. I don't do a step mash, but rather a "slope mash" where the temp rises gradually. I never take off the heat. To get optimum repeatibility, I need to go with electric heat, and some sort of circulation system to keep the heat uniform. Ultimately I hope to transition to a 3500 watt induction system.

H.W.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Super jealous. I definitely need to get one of those heaters and see if the lhbs will let set their mill gap or ask around my homebrew club, can't get a mill just yet

 

[Owly055]

If you are doing BIAB, buy one of those inexpensive Walmart grain mills. They are cheap, and a number of members are using them with good success. If you are doing a conventional mash tun & sparge, I don't think they are a good idea, but for brew in a bag, they're fine according to several people here.
The key to a shortened mash is fine crush. Heating and cooling time are the real culprits in increasing the brew day. There really is no reason not to dough in and go to bed, then boil in the morning. I've left a mash as long as 4 hours. If you are worried about too much attenuation and a dry beer, use some crystal. Is a short mash better than a "mash while you sleep"? The floating heater was so cheap, I've been asking myself why I didn't do it sooner. The element was peanuts, but I had to buy short cord and a plug, and buy a receptacle. The stainless steel bowl from "the Army" was so cheap it hardly is worth mentioning. It all adds up, but it was still cheap for what it gives me. I only use it for a total of about 5-6 minutes per brew day. The chiller cost quite a bit more in the end........... I got raped on the copper tubing. I would have been ahead to buy the whole roll. Then I had to install plumbing and a faucet to run it, but it not only cut out a considerable amount of time, but also increased the quality of my product. The best investment was the BC barley crusher. It has allowed me to pay 50 cents a pound for my base malt instead of $2, as well as control my process better.
Altogether, I've spent about $300 in the last few months between these items, and a new larger brew kettle. Every item has saved me time and / or money.

H.W.

Super jealous. I definitely need to get one of those heaters and see if the lhbs will let set their mill gap or ask around my homebrew club, can't get a mill just yet

 

[mjdonnelly68]

I've said this on the boards before:

For me brewing is like sex: I don't get to do it nearly as often as I'd like and when I do get to do it, I'm in no hurry to finish quickly.

My average brew day is six glorious hours (seven if I think about baseball).

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Yea I do biab right now, the lhbs has a barley crusher and I turn the dial as tight as I can but it still don't think it's set properly. Seems to be around .034 or so if I were to take a guess based on the crush settings, maybe a little lower.

So what'd you do to make the element? Any chance of us getting a write up? Element+plug+bowl+outlet? Drill some holes, wire element to cord etc?

I feel like this design is a bit better than the usual heat stick as there's less submerged parts to seal up, no piping to buy, no elbow.

 

[Owly055]

Will do! Using WLP002, which looking back at my notes (didnt keep good ones) I am not 100% sure of my normal attenuation with this yeast, but I mashed at 151 so I am hoping for upper 60th percentile for attenuation. White labs states 63-70%. I have considered BIAB and can definitely see the time savings. I was thinking how vorlauf, runoff and then repeat for sparging was a real time killer. Didn't get up to a boil til the 2 hour mark - thats 80 minutes from end of mash to boil! Cleaning seems to be the little odds and ends, my mash tun is already clean and dry by the end of the boil. I have ball valve on my pot, but need to get a hose barb and hose so I can drain right into the fermentor. Using a racking cane is not efficient! Also have to lug everything up to a kitchen sink for cleaning.

There really isn't anything to write up.............. The photo further up this thread says it all. I picked up a stainless steel bowl from "The Army" (Salvation Army), figured out the balance point of the element, measured out and drilled two holes in suitable locations, installed the nylon washers (supplied), and tightened down the nuts, and wired a piece of #14 cord about 3' long to the lugs, using ordinary automotive wire crimps. Since I took the photos, I have added a ground stud, which is a copper slot head screw (1/4 NC) with a nylon washer under the head, and two copper nuts, all from Ace Hardware. I simply drilled a hole in the bowl, and put the screw through the hole with the threaded end up, and the washer under the head. One nut tightens it through the hole, and the other holds my wire connection. It doesn't get much simpler than that. My live power connections are insulated by being heavily coated with silicon RTV. It's safe enough to satisfy me. I use the 20 amp 220 plug that looks like an ordinary 3 prong 110 V plug with one blade rotated 90 degrees to the other.

Sealing is no problem at all, and you can see down inside the unit. you could foam the inside if you wanted with Urethane for further protection, but I'd rather keep it open and dry. Nothing is really critical........ I only use the heater for minutes at a time. I had foam spill over into it yesterday... not much.

2500 watts is very powerful compared to most heat sticks. It's main liability is also an advantage. The open top bowl acts as a lid as it floats on the brew. This leaves only a small amount of exposed wort around the perimeter. The result is that when the wort hits a full boil, the hot break foam comes up in this area and wants to spill into the bowl. With the terminals well sealed this isn't a problem. I will however install a ground fault outlet eventually for peace of mind anyway.

http://www.sourcingmap.com/ac-220v-2500w-alloy-spiral-electric-water-heating-element-tube-heater-p-381203.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=froogle&utm_campaign=usfroogle&gclid=CMqK0qCQosACFQuOaQodJ04AOA


H.W.

 

[monkeyman1000]

Been watching your posts (and RM-MN's posts) for a bit. Finally ordered one of those Corona knock off grain mills and used it this morning. I also do a small batch size ( 1.75 to 2.25 gallons) on the stove, BIAB. My plan today was to grind fine and try a 30 minute mash. I screwed up however and forgot to turn off the stove after stirring the grains at 17 minutes in so I stopped the whole process and pulled the bag at about 24 minutes after my unplanned mashout. My pre boil gravity and OG ( 1.057 and 1.079 ) were right on the money and my pH was fairly close (5.56, was shooting for 5.50). I don't usually brew bigger beers but this is going to be a Christmas beer that will sit in bottles for a bit. I will say that my mash was hazier at the end of the 24 minutes so I hope everything converted. I will brew a normal beer in about 3 weeks so I will see how it goes. Heating is now my biggest time waster. About 35 minutes to get to mash and another 30-35 to get to a boil. I don't have the balls to try that heating element though. I would fry myself for sure. The homemade wort chiller brought my cooling times down from 40 minutes (ice bath) to about 10 minutes (ice bath and chiller). I tried a prechiller as well but it isn't really cutting my time down more than just the chiller and ice bath. My tap water is about 68 degrees right now. I am still waiting for a few things to dry but all in all my day was less than 3.5 hours. This is down from 5.5 hours. Maybe I will try the shortened boil time next since I am doing 75 minute boils.

 

[Owly055]

Been watching your posts (and RM-MN's posts) for a bit. Finally ordered one of those Corona knock off grain mills and used it this morning. I also do a small batch size ( 1.75 to 2.25 gallons) on the stove, BIAB. My plan today was to grind fine and try a 30 minute mash. I screwed up however and forgot to turn off the stove after stirring the grains at 17 minutes in so I stopped the whole process and pulled the bag at about 24 minutes after my unplanned mashout. My pre boil gravity and OG ( 1.057 and 1.079 ) were right on the money and my pH was fairly close (5.56, was shooting for 5.50). I don't usually brew bigger beers but this is going to be a Christmas beer that will sit in bottles for a bit. I will say that my mash was hazier at the end of the 24 minutes so I hope everything converted. I will brew a normal beer in about 3 weeks so I will see how it goes. Heating is now my biggest time waster. About 35 minutes to get to mash and another 30-35 to get to a boil. I don't have the balls to try that heating element though. I would fry myself for sure. The homemade wort chiller brought my cooling times down from 40 minutes (ice bath) to about 10 minutes (ice bath and chiller). I tried a prechiller as well but it isn't really cutting my time down more than just the chiller and ice bath. My tap water is about 68 degrees right now. I am still waiting for a few things to dry but all in all my day was less than 3.5 hours. This is down from 5.5 hours. Maybe I will try the shortened boil time next since I am doing 75 minute boils.

Hazy sounds like under converted.........but the fine crush / grind may be the culprit. If so the haze will clear as the yeast flocculates. If your crush was pretty fine, the conversion happens so fast it's a bit shocking. I monitor with my refractometer. Stirring is pretty important if you are doing a stove top "inline mash". Google "floating thermometer". The floating thermometer will give a good reading you can watch will stirring. You will see the conversion take place. The wort will go from milky to clear rather rapidly, and thin out. The refractometer readings will peak, and stop increasing. The only variable will be fermentability. Hopefully you didn't go through the conversion zone too fast. It sounds to me like your heating rate might have been a tad to quick.

Your heating times are much like mine were..... the 2500 watt floating heater reduced them to insignificance. "Heat Sticks" are probably safer

My floating heater looks a bit scary to people.... and I don't recommend it for the faint of heart. It is insulated now (with silicone).

Putting it in the proper perspective, I work with electricity all the time......... How about 480 3 phase and water (center pivots). It's not for everybody. I recently built an electronic capacitor discharge mouse trap that is capable of killing a man, though it has some safety devices to prevent that. As a teen (late 60's), I took apart countless TVs for the electrical components, which found their way into various projects............. Remember TV repairmen getting killed by the capacitors in TVs. My folks apparently hadn't heard of it, and I wasn't shy about discharging the capacitors with a screwdriver.

The moral of the story is that if you are NOT comfortable with electricity..... don't do it!! We are all adults here ( I hope ). I work with things that could kill me every day, and have for well over 30 years. Stay in your comfort zone. My "comfort zone" extends far beyond that of many people I know. You probably don't even want to know some of the things I do and have done.

Keep us posted on your results. It's exciting to see people actually trying the short mash, and making an effort to bring the brew day under control. Remember that a "hard boil" is far better than a whimpy boil for what we are trying to accomplish. If you have a good full rolling boil, cut your boil time back. If your boil is kind of pathetic, maybe you shouldn't.

H.W.

 

[TexasWine]

I'm glad to report I had a successful brew day fellas (and ladies)! Spent some time figuring out how to adjust my mill. Ran it through at 0.025 and then again at 0.010. The second run I milled directly into my bag. Then I dropped that sucker full of grain into my kettle of strike water, stirred out the dough balls, slid it into the oven and watched it sit there at 151F, without even budging, for 30 minutes.

On to the boil, I did a first wort hop addition while it was heating up, then a 15, 10, 5 and 1 minute (Zombie Dust clone here on HBT in case anyone was wondering). Hit my volumes spot on using PricelessBrewing's spreadsheet. Did a no chill right into the bucket and now it's sitting in the fermentation chamber. I'll pitch the yeast tomorrow morn and report back in a few weeks to let y'all know how the finished product turned out.

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this discussion. I'm pumped!!!

Just to report back. With the 30 minute mash and shortened boil I got an OG of 1.069 at 78% efficiency. Measured the final gravity tonight at 1.012, which is lower than predicted. Yeast attenuated far beyond what I expected.

Beer is crystal clear and tastes amazing even flat and warm.

Here's to short mashes, short boils, and no chill brewing!

 

[Owly055]

Just to report back. With the 30 minute mash and shortened boil I got an OG of 1.069 at 78% efficiency. Measured the final gravity tonight at 1.012, which is lower than predicted. Yeast attenuated far beyond what I expected.

Beer is crystal clear and tastes amazing even flat and warm.

Here's to short mashes, short boils, and no chill brewing!

That's an impressive FG for a 30 min mash................. What was your crush? Are you going to cut the mash back to 20 minutes to see what happens? It's really shocking to see how fast conversion takes place..... If you are stirring and monitoring.

H.W.

 

[TexasWine]

That's an impressive FG for a 30 min mash................. What was your crush? Are you going to cut the mash back to 20 minutes to see what happens? It's really shocking to see how fast conversion takes place..... If you are stirring and monitoring.

H.W.

I did two passes with my barley crusher. First at .025, second at .010. Finest crush I've had to date. The results were very much like corn meal.

From a time savings point, I'm pretty happy with the 30 minute mash. I was busy prepping for the next steps, weighing out my hops, sanitizing the fermenter, tending to my wife who was running a fever that day, etc. If I get to a point where I'm waiting on the mash to finish I'll definitely attempt a shorter time.

On the other end of the spectrum I'm also considering doing an over night mash. Since I use my oven to mash in I could hold temps for as long as I want. It could be helpful for those times where I don't have 2 back to back hours to dedicate to brewing. I could instead break it up into smaller chunks.

 

[Owly055]

I've considered various night time mashing ideas including the overnight mash.

I've mashed as long as 3 hours, just doughing in at 152, insulating and going off to do something else. My obvious concern was over attenuation, but there was no problem. I may try an overnight mash just to see how it works.

The other option I've considered is doughing into cold water, and putting a hot plate on a timer, but this would require some kind of circulation system.... a simple propeller to push the mash down to the bottom in the center so it would rise back up along the edges for example. mounted in a tube that went nearly to the bottom of the pot, a small electric motor would drive the prop, and sit over the top of the kettle. A large automotive heater fan motor would work for this. The circulator would come on when the hot plate came on. This would be a nice thing to have anyway for my "inline mashes" where I have constant bottom heat.

Take it a step further, and you could have a container with a measured amount of water and an electric valve...... the water would flow into the kettle, the circulator pump would come on, and the hot plate would come on. The circulator prop being at the top, it would be churning air until the strike water reached it....... The problem would be introducing the water and not having clumps.

My favorite system is the reverse circulation system (Braumeister). It would use an ordinary brew kettle with a pump, and an elevated grain basket, pumping the water up through the bottom screen and top screen, and returning it to the kettle from a port above the top screen. The grain basket would be a 20 quart Walmart stainless steel stock pot, with a custom ordered screen in the bottom and another above the grain. About $100 for the two screens, and $11 for the pot, and $135 for the pump, then there's the hot plate and the PID controller, plumbing, etc..... It just keeps adding up.

I just ordered a new Ipad Air 2, blowing a pretty piece of change. My current Ipad is coming on to 5 years old (gen 1), so I won't be buying any brewing equipment for awhile. I also purchased a vehicle recently, so many projects are in a holding pattern.

H.W.

 

[steveoatley]

Owly

Check out this

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/50-dedicated-herms-468563/

Small herms system, some have put on timers

S

 

[Owly055]

Owly

Check out this

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/50-dedicated-herms-468563/

Small herms system, some have put on timers

S

Neat!
Unfortunately recirculation does not work well with a brew bag..... at least not with the fine grist I use. The bag weave plugs up. Direct bottom heat does work, but requires stirring in some way. I've been playing with a number of ideas, and I do have a hot plate coming, and most of what I would need I have.

H.W.

 

[sputnam]

i started brewing 2 at a time. I take 3.5 hours from first gathering my quipment to putting it away. So, for 2 brews thats 7 hours.

Doing 2 at a time I did it in 5.5 hours, that's 2.75 hrs per brew....plus I only had to get out, clean, and put away all my crap just once. Best idea I've had in a while.

 

[Owly055]

i started brewing 2 at a time. I take 3.5 hours from first gathering my quipment to putting it away. So, for 2 brews thats 7 hours.

Doing 2 at a time I did it in 5.5 hours, that's 2.75 hrs per brew....plus I only had to get out, clean, and put away all my crap just once. Best idea I've had in a while.

Good point! I actually have enough equipment as it stands to stagger two brews, especially since I built the floating heater and can reach mash temps in minutes, and likewise boil temps. I look forward to my weekly brew day though, and I'm not sure skipping a week would suit me. I know it seems almost contradictory to say this, considering the fact that I've been trying to reduce brew day time. I do look forward to it every week. I look forward to a 2 to 2.5 hour session..........but not a 4 to 4.5 hour session. Does that make any sense at all? ;-)

H.W.

 

[sputnam]

Good point! I actually have enough equipment as it stands to stagger two brews, especially since I built the floating heater and can reach mash temps in minutes, and likewise boil temps. I look forward to my weekly brew day though, and I'm not sure skipping a week would suit me. I know it seems almost contradictory to say this, considering the fact that I've been trying to reduce brew day time. I do look forward to it every week. I look forward to a 2 to 2.5 hour session..........but not a 4 to 4.5 hour session. Does that make any sense at all? ;-)

H.W.

i do understand. When I bottled, I actually looked forward to bottling day (i did 2.5 gallon batches and got around 22 bottles) then that became a chore that I dreaded. Then I got into kegging and while trying to get the pipeline full, I was brewing every weekend for a while. I looked forward to it at first, but it too became a chore I wasn't sad to see go. Now I have the pipeline for 6 taps full and brewing 2 at a time, I can probably get away with brewing every 6 weeks...maybe more, maybe less. But, I feel like they will be cherished more so than by brewing each week....does that make sense?

 

[Owly055]

i do understand. When I bottled, I actually looked forward to bottling day (i did 2.5 gallon batches and got around 22 bottles) then that became a chore that I dreaded. Then I got into kegging and while trying to get the pipeline full, I was brewing every weekend for a while. I looked forward to it at first, but it too became a chore I wasn't sad to see go. Now I have the pipeline for 6 taps full and brewing 2 at a time, I can probably get away with brewing every 6 weeks...maybe more, maybe less. But, I feel like they will be cherished more so than by brewing each week....does that make sense?

It does make sense........ I've only done 35 brews so far, and I'm still full of ideas, combinations and techniques I want to try. I do repeat a few brews when I find something I really like, but more likely, I'll repeat it with a variation..... I always have an idea to better it. I often sit down the night before brew day and put something together on Brewer's Friend.

I'm going to experiment with a shandy tomorrow AM. Mashing hot and fast... somewhere between 160 and 165, and the mash will probably only last 5 minutes or so..... I expect conversion in that amount of time. My object is to make a fully converted wort with low fermentability, and a lot of sweetness. I'll ferment it out, then add lemon juice (fresh) in what passes for "secondary". The idea is to get a bottleable shandy with adequate sweetness to temper the sourness of the lemon. If I don't have enough alcohol from the malt, I'll add corn sugar. I've never mashed at the upper end of the temperature spectrum, and nobody seems to know from personal experience what the result will be. It should be an interesting experiment......... Hopefully not a "dumper". I'll be adding the lemon to taste.


H.W.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

It does make sense........ I've only done 35 brews so far, and I'm still full of ideas, combinations and techniques I want to try. I do repeat a few brews when I find something I really like, but more likely, I'll repeat it with a variation..... I always have an idea to better it. I often sit down the night before brew day and put something together on Brewer's Friend.

I'm going to experiment with a shandy tomorrow AM. Mashing hot and fast... somewhere between 160 and 165, and the mash will probably only last 5 minutes or so..... I expect conversion in that amount of time. My object is to make a fully converted wort with low fermentability, and a lot of sweetness. I'll ferment it out, then add lemon juice (fresh) in what passes for "secondary". The idea is to get a bottleable shandy with adequate sweetness to temper the sourness of the lemon. If I don't have enough alcohol from the malt, I'll add corn sugar. I've never mashed at the upper end of the temperature spectrum, and nobody seems to know from personal experience what the result will be. It should be an interesting experiment......... Hopefully not a "dumper". I'll be adding the lemon to taste.


H.W.

Sounds interesting, let us know how your fermentability turns out.

I'd be curious about doing some of the base malt with a under modified euro malt and the rest as your typical base malt, would the base malt provide enough conversion to counteract the euro malt in a quick mash or will the euro malt decrease the attenuation enough that you could control the attenuation by your ratio of base malts