Cutting Brew Day Time the time challenge!

[Owly055]

Just to report back. With the 30 minute mash and shortened boil I got an OG of 1.069 at 78% efficiency. Measured the final gravity tonight at 1.012, which is lower than predicted. Yeast attenuated far beyond what I expected.

Beer is crystal clear and tastes amazing even flat and warm.

Here's to short mashes, short boils, and no chill brewing!

That's an impressive FG for a 30 min mash................. What was your crush? Are you going to cut the mash back to 20 minutes to see what happens? It's really shocking to see how fast conversion takes place..... If you are stirring and monitoring.

H.W.

 

[TexasWine]

That's an impressive FG for a 30 min mash................. What was your crush? Are you going to cut the mash back to 20 minutes to see what happens? It's really shocking to see how fast conversion takes place..... If you are stirring and monitoring.

H.W.

I did two passes with my barley crusher. First at .025, second at .010. Finest crush I've had to date. The results were very much like corn meal.

From a time savings point, I'm pretty happy with the 30 minute mash. I was busy prepping for the next steps, weighing out my hops, sanitizing the fermenter, tending to my wife who was running a fever that day, etc. If I get to a point where I'm waiting on the mash to finish I'll definitely attempt a shorter time.

On the other end of the spectrum I'm also considering doing an over night mash. Since I use my oven to mash in I could hold temps for as long as I want. It could be helpful for those times where I don't have 2 back to back hours to dedicate to brewing. I could instead break it up into smaller chunks.

 

[Owly055]

I've considered various night time mashing ideas including the overnight mash.

I've mashed as long as 3 hours, just doughing in at 152, insulating and going off to do something else. My obvious concern was over attenuation, but there was no problem. I may try an overnight mash just to see how it works.

The other option I've considered is doughing into cold water, and putting a hot plate on a timer, but this would require some kind of circulation system.... a simple propeller to push the mash down to the bottom in the center so it would rise back up along the edges for example. mounted in a tube that went nearly to the bottom of the pot, a small electric motor would drive the prop, and sit over the top of the kettle. A large automotive heater fan motor would work for this. The circulator would come on when the hot plate came on. This would be a nice thing to have anyway for my "inline mashes" where I have constant bottom heat.

Take it a step further, and you could have a container with a measured amount of water and an electric valve...... the water would flow into the kettle, the circulator pump would come on, and the hot plate would come on. The circulator prop being at the top, it would be churning air until the strike water reached it....... The problem would be introducing the water and not having clumps.

My favorite system is the reverse circulation system (Braumeister). It would use an ordinary brew kettle with a pump, and an elevated grain basket, pumping the water up through the bottom screen and top screen, and returning it to the kettle from a port above the top screen. The grain basket would be a 20 quart Walmart stainless steel stock pot, with a custom ordered screen in the bottom and another above the grain. About $100 for the two screens, and $11 for the pot, and $135 for the pump, then there's the hot plate and the PID controller, plumbing, etc..... It just keeps adding up.

I just ordered a new Ipad Air 2, blowing a pretty piece of change. My current Ipad is coming on to 5 years old (gen 1), so I won't be buying any brewing equipment for awhile. I also purchased a vehicle recently, so many projects are in a holding pattern.

H.W.

 

[steveoatley]

Owly

Check out this

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/50-dedicated-herms-468563/

Small herms system, some have put on timers

S

 

[Owly055]

Owly

Check out this

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/50-dedicated-herms-468563/

Small herms system, some have put on timers

S

Neat!
Unfortunately recirculation does not work well with a brew bag..... at least not with the fine grist I use. The bag weave plugs up. Direct bottom heat does work, but requires stirring in some way. I've been playing with a number of ideas, and I do have a hot plate coming, and most of what I would need I have.

H.W.

 

[sputnam]

i started brewing 2 at a time. I take 3.5 hours from first gathering my quipment to putting it away. So, for 2 brews thats 7 hours.

Doing 2 at a time I did it in 5.5 hours, that's 2.75 hrs per brew....plus I only had to get out, clean, and put away all my crap just once. Best idea I've had in a while.

 

[Owly055]

i started brewing 2 at a time. I take 3.5 hours from first gathering my quipment to putting it away. So, for 2 brews thats 7 hours.

Doing 2 at a time I did it in 5.5 hours, that's 2.75 hrs per brew....plus I only had to get out, clean, and put away all my crap just once. Best idea I've had in a while.

Good point! I actually have enough equipment as it stands to stagger two brews, especially since I built the floating heater and can reach mash temps in minutes, and likewise boil temps. I look forward to my weekly brew day though, and I'm not sure skipping a week would suit me. I know it seems almost contradictory to say this, considering the fact that I've been trying to reduce brew day time. I do look forward to it every week. I look forward to a 2 to 2.5 hour session..........but not a 4 to 4.5 hour session. Does that make any sense at all? ;-)

H.W.

 

[sputnam]

Good point! I actually have enough equipment as it stands to stagger two brews, especially since I built the floating heater and can reach mash temps in minutes, and likewise boil temps. I look forward to my weekly brew day though, and I'm not sure skipping a week would suit me. I know it seems almost contradictory to say this, considering the fact that I've been trying to reduce brew day time. I do look forward to it every week. I look forward to a 2 to 2.5 hour session..........but not a 4 to 4.5 hour session. Does that make any sense at all? ;-)

H.W.

i do understand. When I bottled, I actually looked forward to bottling day (i did 2.5 gallon batches and got around 22 bottles) then that became a chore that I dreaded. Then I got into kegging and while trying to get the pipeline full, I was brewing every weekend for a while. I looked forward to it at first, but it too became a chore I wasn't sad to see go. Now I have the pipeline for 6 taps full and brewing 2 at a time, I can probably get away with brewing every 6 weeks...maybe more, maybe less. But, I feel like they will be cherished more so than by brewing each week....does that make sense?

 

[Owly055]

i do understand. When I bottled, I actually looked forward to bottling day (i did 2.5 gallon batches and got around 22 bottles) then that became a chore that I dreaded. Then I got into kegging and while trying to get the pipeline full, I was brewing every weekend for a while. I looked forward to it at first, but it too became a chore I wasn't sad to see go. Now I have the pipeline for 6 taps full and brewing 2 at a time, I can probably get away with brewing every 6 weeks...maybe more, maybe less. But, I feel like they will be cherished more so than by brewing each week....does that make sense?

It does make sense........ I've only done 35 brews so far, and I'm still full of ideas, combinations and techniques I want to try. I do repeat a few brews when I find something I really like, but more likely, I'll repeat it with a variation..... I always have an idea to better it. I often sit down the night before brew day and put something together on Brewer's Friend.

I'm going to experiment with a shandy tomorrow AM. Mashing hot and fast... somewhere between 160 and 165, and the mash will probably only last 5 minutes or so..... I expect conversion in that amount of time. My object is to make a fully converted wort with low fermentability, and a lot of sweetness. I'll ferment it out, then add lemon juice (fresh) in what passes for "secondary". The idea is to get a bottleable shandy with adequate sweetness to temper the sourness of the lemon. If I don't have enough alcohol from the malt, I'll add corn sugar. I've never mashed at the upper end of the temperature spectrum, and nobody seems to know from personal experience what the result will be. It should be an interesting experiment......... Hopefully not a "dumper". I'll be adding the lemon to taste.


H.W.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

It does make sense........ I've only done 35 brews so far, and I'm still full of ideas, combinations and techniques I want to try. I do repeat a few brews when I find something I really like, but more likely, I'll repeat it with a variation..... I always have an idea to better it. I often sit down the night before brew day and put something together on Brewer's Friend.

I'm going to experiment with a shandy tomorrow AM. Mashing hot and fast... somewhere between 160 and 165, and the mash will probably only last 5 minutes or so..... I expect conversion in that amount of time. My object is to make a fully converted wort with low fermentability, and a lot of sweetness. I'll ferment it out, then add lemon juice (fresh) in what passes for "secondary". The idea is to get a bottleable shandy with adequate sweetness to temper the sourness of the lemon. If I don't have enough alcohol from the malt, I'll add corn sugar. I've never mashed at the upper end of the temperature spectrum, and nobody seems to know from personal experience what the result will be. It should be an interesting experiment......... Hopefully not a "dumper". I'll be adding the lemon to taste.


H.W.

Sounds interesting, let us know how your fermentability turns out.

I'd be curious about doing some of the base malt with a under modified euro malt and the rest as your typical base malt, would the base malt provide enough conversion to counteract the euro malt in a quick mash or will the euro malt decrease the attenuation enough that you could control the attenuation by your ratio of base malts

 

[Owly055]

Sounds interesting, let us know how your fermentability turns out.

I'd be curious about doing some of the base malt with a under modified euro malt and the rest as your typical base malt, would the base malt provide enough conversion to counteract the euro malt in a quick mash or will the euro malt decrease the attenuation enough that you could control the attenuation by your ratio of base malts

I'm brewing Sunday AM.... Within 3 or 4 days I should have an idea about attenuation. I'll post my results. It's amazing how many ways there are to go with brewing.

H.W.

 

[Owly055]

It took about 20 minutes to mash at 162 F this AM. I struck with 170F water, and had some problems breaking up clumps. 5 pounds pilsner 2 pounds wheat. I attribute the slower than expected conversion to the fact that the grain was dry when I struck with 170F water. Normally, I dough in at low temp and heat up through the mash. In this case I didn't want to give beta a chance, so I struck HOT. Once conversion actually started, it really only took about 4 minutes... Nothing much happened, then the brix reading on my refractometer shot up to 16 and stayed there.

Clearly the extended soak as I heat up to mash temp makes conversion happen fast when it starts. The gelatinization phase (I presume) is a prerequisite for the conversion phase.

My objective as stated before with this mash is to produce a sweet wort with low fermentability. To do this I started well above the range where beta amylase ceases to operate.

Even with the "long" mash, and a 45 minute boil, I'm going to come in at about 100 minutes start to finish. Last hop addition just went in. Chiller is ready, fermenter is ready, yeast is ready to pitch..... etc.


H.W.

 

[TexasWine]

Looking forward to hearing how this Shandy turns out.

 

[Owly055]

Looking forward to hearing how this Shandy turns out.

Me too........ Hope it won't be a dumper! Efficiency came out only 75%, but considering an OG of 1.078, I didn't expect the efficiency of a lower gravity brew. I pitched heavy, and had bubbles within 20 minutes, and it's percolating merrily away. The real challenge will be the "mix to taste" in the secondary. I would normally expect to see between 7.5 and 8% abv. I'm hoping it will attenuate out at about 3%. Much more than that, and the amount of lemon I can add will be reduced.. much less and I'll add corn sugar to bump the alcohol...... I'm hoping for the latter situation!

H.W.

 

[brettwasbtd]

Will do! Using WLP002, which looking back at my notes (didnt keep good ones) I am not 100% sure of my normal attenuation with this yeast, but I mashed at 151 so I am hoping for upper 60th percentile for attenuation. White labs states 63-70%. I have considered BIAB and can definitely see the time savings. I was thinking how vorlauf, runoff and then repeat for sparging was a real time killer. Didn't get up to a boil til the 2 hour mark - thats 80 minutes from end of mash to boil! Cleaning seems to be the little odds and ends, my mash tun is already clean and dry by the end of the boil. I have ball valve on my pot, but need to get a hose barb and hose so I can drain right into the fermentor. Using a racking cane is not efficient! Also have to lug everything up to a kitchen sink for cleaning.

Just wanted to follow up on this. My OG was 1.056 and my FG was 1.018 which works out to be 68% attenuation - well within the upper range of WLP002, so I dont think I lost anything on attenuation.

 

[Owly055]

Just wanted to follow up on this. My OG was 1.056 and my FG was 1.018 which works out to be 68% attenuation - well within the upper range of WLP002, so I dont think I lost anything on attenuation.

When I was sparging my grain bag, in a colander over an auxillary bowl because my container was not large enough to allow the colander with the bag to rest in it, efficiency was quite high, and sparging was rapid, as it was a "saturate and squeeze" process. I would pour the hot water carefully into the grain until it was saturated, then using a round bottom metal bowl, I would squeeze by pressing the bag. The wort was heating to boil while I was doing this, so no time was taken up with sparging. The heat went on as soon as I was ready to lift the bag.

In reality there is little or no difference between doing a mash this way and using a conventional mash tun. I used more strike water than you would, and extracted the wort from the grain by squeezing.

I still squeeze in the same way, (separate container) removing the colander, though I could squeeze right into the boil kettle, simply because it allows me to use my 2500 watt floating heater along with the flame beneath the kettle. This brings me from mash to full boil in 7 or 8 minutes.

H.W.

 

[monkeyman1000]

Bottling my Christmas Ale today. My OG was 1.079 and FG was 1.014. That was with the shorter mash time of about 24 minutes. Pretty happy with that and will be doing shorter mash times from now on.

 

[Owly055]

Bottling my Christmas Ale today. My OG was 1.079 and FG was 1.014. That was with the shorter mash time of about 24 minutes. Pretty happy with that and will be doing shorter mash times from now on.

I did a traditional hour mash this AM because it worked out better with my morning activities. The result was an abortion. I measure brix when doing a stove top mash, and stir steadily and watch for conversion, which is visible as the mash thins and clears. With an hour mash, I simply wrap the kettle with insulation and blankets and forget about it. Mash temp was 152 at the start, and consisted of 5 pounds of two row and a pound of wheat malt, and a quarter pound of CR75.

When I unwrapped my mash and set it on the stove top the wort was still milky and thick, and the brix was only about 10....... far below my expected brix of 16. I started heating and stirring slowly, and at about 155, the brix took off and leveled out at 16. I'd only lost a degree and a half during the hour mash, so I'm not sure what went wrong. When doing hour mashes in the past, I never monitored conversion, I just trusted in God like everybody else, so I don't have a baseline for comparison. I presume the conversion probably completed previously as I heated toward mash out. (note that these brix readings are uncorrected refractometer readings.... I use brix during the mash instead of corrected SG..... I don't know why, I just started doing that and know what to expect).

Interestingly, my 20-30 minute mashes achieve the same attenuation as I was getting with a "conventional" 60 minute mash, so as far as I'm concerned, there is absolutely no reason to mash much longer than 30 minutes........if you do it right. "Doing it right" appears to be the challenge.

For me "doing it right" means doughing in at a fairly low temp and heating rapidly into the mid 140's, and then either managing my rate of temp rise, or doing a "splash down" with cold water from the low 150's back to the mid 140's and repeating the slow temp rise. Raising the temp faster, and straight through to the low 160's results in a lower attenuation wort. 155F seems to be the magical temp where conversion happens very rapidly, but fermentability is reduced if you get there too fast.

I'm reaching the point where I can predict attenuation pretty accurately. I design my mash procedure and know at the outset where I'm going to end up fairly closely. I'm for some reason not achieving the efficiencies I was......... this one hit 79% according to Brewer's Friend, but that's pretty darn respectable.


H.W.

 

[TexasWine]

I was reading up on barleywine this morning. Came across this interesting statement: "Because we are after these sugars, we should mash in at about 149°F (65°C). At this peak temperature, almost all beta diastatic conversion is complete after about 10 minutes, provided the mash pH is roughly between 5.2 and 5.4."

http://byo.com/stories/issue/item/224-big-bad-barleywine

 

[Owly055]

I was reading up on barleywine this morning. Came across this interesting statement: "Because we are after these sugars, we should mash in at about 149°F (65°C). At this peak temperature, almost all beta diastatic conversion is complete after about 10 minutes, provided the mash pH is roughly between 5.2 and 5.4."

http://byo.com/stories/issue/item/224-big-bad-barleywine

The quote below is from your link above:

We know that beta amylase enzymes from barley start showing activity at temperatures as low as 104 °F (40 °C), but that these enzymes reach their peak performance as they approach a temperature of 149 °F (65 °C). At temperatures above 149 °F (65 °C), beta amylase activity slows down. At 158 °F (70 °C), it all but stops. Most of the sugar produced by beta amylase is maltose, which is a two-molecule sugar (disaccharide). Beta amylase also produces a certain amount of other fully fermentable sugars. Because we are after these sugars, we should mash in at about 149°F (65°C). At this peak temperature, almost all beta diastatic conversion is complete after about 10 minutes, provided the mash pH is roughly between 5.2 and 5.4.

I haven't ever even checked PH........ I'll get some litmus paper next time I get to the LHBS........ I'm curious now. This however explains the higher than expected attenuation in my 10 minute mash. The fact is that I doughed in with 130F tap water, which put me around 120.......within beta range. I heated rapidly to 145, reducing temp rise to 1 deg per minute, watching the brix and iodine tests, and had full conversion at about 155. The attenuation was surprising...... I was only 3/4 of one percent alcohol below what would be typical for an hour mash. Clearly there is something to this. My current technique is to "splash down" from 155 after full conversion, using cold water to drop the temp back to 145. Because of the brief dwell time at 155, the beta amylase is mostly still intact, and increasing the temp gradually (1 deg per min) gives exactly the same attenuation I get with a one hour mash. Thus I am basically doing a 20 minute mash, instead of an hour, but I'm stirring frequently.

It is my belief that this "reverse step mash" allows the alpha to break down the starches, and set things up for the beta....... which is what happens anyway, but accelerates the process by hitting the optimum range for alpha, without dwelling excessively, and doesn't denature the beta. I've added powdered amylase (cheap in pound quantities) in this process, and it seems to accelerate the second step a bit.

H.W.