Cutting Brew Day Time the time challenge!

[paul_111]

why I would rush through something I so thoroughly enjoy. Brew Day for me a cherished activity, planned for at least two weeks. Each step contemplated the results documented, notes taken on future improvements. Process of previous brew days reviewed and ideas generated for improvements. Researched through volumes of books and internet whitepapers. I have no intention of even considering shortening my brew day I find ways to extend it, look forward to trying new processes one step at a time. I enjoy and savor each step every nuance and subtlety.

Why are you in such a hurry?

Just my $0.02

Here's my take...

I enjoy brewing, but there are several aspects I do not enjoy. As others have mentioned, I do not enjoy waiting for water to heat. I do not enjoy cleaning, but it is a necessary evil.

Like you, I take notes, review, compare, read, learn, etc. I like the tinkering aspect, but my main drive is experimenting with new recipes/ingredients - I suppose that's the scientist in me.

I don't want to spend the little time I have for this hobby waiting, nor do I enjoy chasing multiple variables (which brings us back to tinkering and making semi-automated systems). I want a system that hits the temperatures that I input so I can enjoy the aspects that I find, well, enjoyable.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't think the motivation here is to hurry; rather, it is to increase efficiency and streamline processes or reduce/eliminate the unenjoyable aspects of brewing so we can focus on those we DO enjoy in the limited 'me' time available in our hectic lives. If we can reduce the process time, for example, perhaps we can brew more frequently, as we don't have to clear our schedules for the majority of the day. ...And that would allow us to enjoy our hobby more frequently

Paul

 

[Owly055]

Here's my take...

I enjoy brewing, but there are several aspects I do not enjoy. As others have mentioned, I do not enjoy waiting for water to heat. I do not enjoy cleaning, but it is a necessary evil.

Like you, I take notes, review, compare, read, learn, etc. I like the tinkering aspect, but my main drive is experimenting with new recipes/ingredients - I suppose that's the scientist in me.

I don't want to spend the little time I have for this hobby waiting, nor do I enjoy chasing multiple variables (which brings us back to tinkering and making semi-automated systems). I want a system that hits the temperatures that I input so I can enjoy the aspects that I find, well, enjoyable.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't think the motivation here is to hurry; rather, it is to increase efficiency and streamline processes or reduce/eliminate the unenjoyable aspects of brewing so we can focus on those we DO enjoy in the limited 'me' time available in our hectic lives. If we can reduce the process time, for example, perhaps we can brew more frequently, as we don't have to clear our schedules for the majority of the day. ...And that would allow us to enjoy our hobby more frequently

Paul

Thanks Paul.............. You hit the nail right on the head. That is exactly how I feel about this project. I am already working on automation to the extent of setting up a recirculation system (see "suck starting a pump versus a ported brew kettle") It will ultimately include a heating element and PID used ONLY during the mash cycle for exactly the reasons you stated. It will be an auxillary system that will be lifted out as soon as the mash is finished. I also plan on building a floating 2500 watt heating element, which should cut my now 30 min to boil time with just the gas stove, down to about 5 minutes, for very low cost in terms of dollars per hours saved over a year. Again, it will be used only briefly.

Howard

 

[Arrheinous]

I've never heard of no boil.......... I'd love to hear more about it. I almost felt like a criminal when I reduced my boil to 45 minutes in the face of all the people who insist that one hour is a minimum, and state what appear to be excellent reasons. I'm not sure how you get bittering without boil.

H.W.

Traditionally you don't boil berliner weiss. And in some instances people do no (or very low) boil wits to get them appropriately cloudy. I kind of ran with the idea and began adapting my process to avoid using so much equipment, having to manage propane, and wait out the boil/chill phases. Moving to an automated e-brewery where everything stays put is in the future though.

I think I've brewed six times in the past month which would have been five months of brews the old way. I get to brew more often because I don't have to convince SWMBO for a whole 8-10 hours to do my thing. I can do that in 3 now.

You'll need to use more hops to mash hop. It works. People don't like it when you mash hop and then boil away the hop compounds but in this case you won't. I'll use 1oz - 4oz of hops and I buy in bulk so the extra cost comes out less than the propane I'm not using. You can throw hops into a cereal mash or decoction (that's a boil, you cheat) to get some more yardage out of fewer hops. In that case, I was calculating the cereal mash or decoction with a separate Beersmith file and scaling the IBUs to the final 5.5G. I've also hopped the strike/sparge water, which will sit at mash temps for most of the time anyway without the lower conversion of AA from the presence of malt.

This does work best for sour beers where you want very little IBU and will lose most of the hop character anyway. But 4-5% beers is a sweet spot for non-sours unless you use a good portion of syrups or a highly attenuating yeast. Sours with Roeselare are calculated out to get an extra % ABV because of the Brett/pedio. This would also be a good way to partial mash for higher OG.

The trick is to keep the mash out and sparge hot to pasteurize the wort - 180F seems to work. I've saved third runnings done with 120F water and they sour. In many cases people who batch sparge don't mash out - you must do this for this process. This hot mash out also kills off any leftover enzymes from the mash that could chew up the body of your beers during the chill. I do an overnight chill (popular in Australia and places where water is regulated) or put it in the fermentation chamber at low temp to pitch a few hours later.

My blonde ale and pumpkin ale are two non-sours of seven beers done this way (the saison I did ended up getting 1809 berliner weiss dregs). This probably wouldn't be feasible without modern sanitizers like Starsan. I'd be curious to see if this could scale up to commercial levels so you can cut out the expense of boiling as long as you can get some aggressive pricing on more hops.

Maybe I'll get to write one of those fancy front page articles on it someday. The pumpkin stout is on tap so I know it's good and the Aurora Blonde will showcase at a 'deck warming' party next weekend.

Edit: More notes - I got 1# each of 4.5AA% St. Goldings, 7.5AA% St. Aurora, and 13AA% Pacific Jade. Thinking back, I'd just stick to 7 - 14 AA% hops as you will need less and they cost about the same. At that rate, it's important to know which moderate/high AA hops aren't going to be harsh as aroma/flavor additions; screen out anything that doesn't make a good late addition hop. I calculate the mash hopping time as the mash time plus the 30 extra minutes for sparging.

As a reference: For my setup, 2oz 13AA% Pacific Jade mash hopping a 5G batch of 1.050 wort gives 20.3 IBU with Beersmith. That covers a range of styles but I haven't gotten up to an IPA yet.

Another thing is that I collect my wort in a 6.5G brew bucket. Better Bottles might deform and glass will crack. Buckets are PE/PP which will be good for the hot mashout/sparge. After the chill it is syphoned to the fermenter before pitching. This also allows further trub separation and now I always take an OG reading (and taste).

 

[Owly055]

Traditionally you don't boil berliner weiss. And in some instances people do no (or very low) boil wits to get them appropriately cloudy. I kind of ran with the idea and began adapting my process to avoid using so much equipment, having to manage propane, and wait out the boil/chill phases. Moving to an automated e-brewery where everything stays put is in the future though.

I think I've brewed six times in the past month which would have been five months of brews the old way. I get to brew more often because I don't have to convince SWMBO for a whole 8-10 hours to do my thing. I can do that in 3 now.

You'll need to use more hops to mash hop. It works. People don't like it when you mash hop and then boil away the hop compounds but in this case you won't. I'll use 1oz - 4oz of hops and I buy in bulk so the extra cost comes out less than the propane I'm not using. You can throw hops into a cereal mash or decoction (that's a boil, you cheat) to get some more yardage out of fewer hops. In that case, I was calculating the cereal mash or decoction with a separate Beersmith file and scaling the IBUs to the final 5.5G. I've also hopped the strike/sparge water, which will sit at mash temps for most of the time anyway without the lower conversion of AA from the presence of malt.

This does work best for sour beers where you want very little IBU and will lose most of the hop character anyway. But 4-5% beers is a sweet spot for non-sours unless you use a good portion of syrups or a highly attenuating yeast. Sours with Roeselare are calculated out to get an extra % ABV because of the Brett/pedio. This would also be a good way to partial mash for higher OG.

The trick is to keep the mash out and sparge hot to pasteurize the wort - 180F seems to work. I've saved third runnings done with 120F water and they sour. In many cases people who batch sparge don't mash out - you must do this for this process. This hot mash out also kills off any leftover enzymes from the mash that could chew up the body of your beers during the chill. I do an overnight chill (popular in Australia and places where water is regulated) or put it in the fermentation chamber at low temp to pitch a few hours later.

My blonde ale and pumpkin ale are two non-sours of seven beers done this way (the saison I did ended up getting 1809 berliner weiss dregs). This probably wouldn't be feasible without modern sanitizers like Starsan. I'd be curious to see if this could scale up to commercial levels so you can cut out the expense of boiling as long as you can get some aggressive pricing on more hops.

Maybe I'll get to write one of those fancy front page articles on it someday. The pumpkin stout is on tap so I know it's good and the Aurora Blonde will showcase at a 'deck warming' party next weekend.

Interesting to say the least........... I'm attacking the mash process to save time, and you are going after the boil. What occurs to me is that you could actually "can" your hops, making a "hop shot" sort of liquid you could add. Simply put hops in jars and cover with boiling water, put the lids on and put them in a hot water bath canner. Store the result in a dark cool place until needed. Some could be done like a hopback.... pour boiling water over them, put the lid on and drop the jars in warm water, cool the water as quickly as possible. Various processes would give different results. Add a measured amount of hop juice of various types at the end of the mash when you are mashing out. This would be particularly good way to handle fresh hops.

The hot break seems to me to be worth boiling for.....but how long is it necessary to boil for hot break? I can see my "inline mash" combined with a 15 minute boil. Stretch the mash out a bit for better fermentability, and cut the boil, and end up with a 90 minute process. The 15 minute boil would allow for some conventional hopping, and give a hot break. Using high bittering hops like Summit. Half an ounce of Summit gives a 2.5 gallon brew, an IBU of 36 with a 15 minute boil, and you still have that 15 minutes to toss in your flavor and aroma hops. DMS seems to be the main issue here, and I've been wondering about using an array of air stones during the boil to help bring it out. A hard 15 minute boil, with a steady aeration should help a lot.

H.W.

 

[Arrheinous]

Homemade pre-isomerized hop juice is a good idea. I'd already considered it. That'd probably be required for commercial scale.

You can scrub DMS out with CO2, you'll have to keg. But I imagine you lose some aromatics as well.

The pumpkin lambic I set up this weekend used 6.5# pilsener and 3.5# unmalted wheat. We'll see about what a lack of boiling to get rid of DMS and hotbreak will do... This is an extreme case for what I'm trying to do. I'm hoping the bugs can make use of both of those.

What I also have experimented with is putting Whirlfloc in the sparge water for mash out. This seemed to work on the blonde but I forgot with the lambic. Gelatin in the keg can apparently work wonders. Does forming hotbreak improve the effectiveness of those two? I need to read up more about that.

 

[Owly055]

Homemade pre-isomerized hop juice is a good idea. I'd already considered it. That'd probably be required for commercial scale.

You can scrub DMS out with CO2, you'll have to keg. But I imagine you lose some aromatics as well.

The pumpkin lambic I set up this weekend used 6.5# pilsener and 3.5# unmalted wheat. We'll see about what a lack of boiling to get rid of DMS and hotbreak will do... This is an extreme case for what I'm trying to do. I'm hoping the bugs can make use of both of those.

What I also have experimented with is putting Whirlfloc in the sparge water for mash out. This seemed to work on the blonde but I forgot with the lambic. Gelatin in the keg can apparently work wonders. Does forming hotbreak improve the effectiveness of those two? I need to read up more about that.

I'm obviously not looking at zero boil. Logically if I were to bitter at the beginning of a 30 minute boil, and use CO2 or air to scrub, I'm losing the aromatics I would lose in the full hour boil, so I should be at the same place as far as the bittering addition. Stopping the scrub process before adding later addition hops at say 10 minutes from the end of the boil, would eliminate that problem for those hops.

Hop Juice would allow you to sidestep that issue completely, but ideally It would be nice to freeze the hop juice. The big advantage I see with the hop juice for general brewing, is that you could pour boiling water right on the hops, and seal with no air space, cooling and capturing the aromatics. This could then be added directly to the bottle as bottling syrup, once you figured out the proper proportions. The results might be fantastic..........

H.W.

 

[Arrheinous]

A pressure cooker could be used to extra compounds from hops into the water. There shouldn't be a loss of anything from that if it's sealed.

 

[masonsjax]

If all you're after in late boil hops is aromatics, just rely on dry hopping. Pre isomerized hop juice has limited potential based on the fact that with a small amount of water, or wort, you can only hold so much oil before it's saturated. The rest would be wasted.

 

[Arrheinous]

That's a good point.

How is the commercial hop extract?

I'm not really looking to get any more bitterness than it takes to balance out a style.

 

[masonsjax]

I don't have a ton of personal experience using commercial extracts, but they are just the extracted oils, used just like real hops and thus will need to be boiled for bitterness.

 

[Arrheinous]

Morebeer has a pre-isomerized hop extract that will add bitterness.

$27/oz, can probably find it cheaper somewhere. But it looks like it will last a while. Should be good for adding 10 IBU to 5G of beer about 50 times.

Formula
To figure out the amount of IsoHop needed, you must first know:
- How many IBU's you want to add to your beer
- How many gallons you are going to add it to
Then take those numbers and plug them into this equation:
B x V x 0.0117/30 = I
Where B = IBU's required, V = volume of beer in barrels, and I = amount of IsoHop in Liters

For example: Say you want to add 10 IBU's to 10 gallons of beer. A quick Google search for "10 gallons to barrels" gives you the conversion of "10 US gallons = 0.322580645 barrels" - perfect! Now start plugging in the numbers - 10 x 0.3225 x 0.0117 = .0377/30 = .00125 liters, or 1.25ml. If you are bad with a pipette, about 20 drops per ml. The IsoHop has a 90% efficiency rate, so you will need to divide the number in liters by .9 - .00125/.9 = .00138 liters, or 1.38 ml.

 

[Owly055]

Morebeer has a pre-isomerized hop extract that will add bitterness.

$27/oz, can probably find it cheaper somewhere. But it looks like it will last a while. Should be good for adding 10 IBU to 5G of beer about 50 times.

Let's say I'm shooting for 20 IBUs for my bittering addition, on a 2.5 gallon brew. 1/3 of an ounce of Summit for 15 minutes boil will get me that 20 IBUs That is 1/3 of $2.50 lets say, or 83 cents.

Using this product, it would be the same amount to gain 10 IBUs on 5 gallons, or 1/50 of $27, or 54 cents.

In it's 3 month life expectance (actually 2-3), I would brew 12 batches, that means that I would only use about 25% before it was a throw away. That raises my cost to $2.16
I would need to share with other people, or brew more beer, or buy a smaller quantity to keep it fresh.

Summit hops are a far more cost effective tool brewing as I do. I don't really anticipate reducing the boil to much under half an hour. There are of course smaller quantity hop shots, but they are definitely NOT cost effective. The other alternative might be to use ethanol to dissolve the AAs out of the hops and make your own extract. This could be as simple as dropping a package of pellets in some Everclear, and leaving them to steep for an extended period of time in a cool dark place. I could then simply add a measured proportion to a brew after shaking well, and would probably get most of the bittering. Everclear is pretty darn cheap. I think, perhaps I'll try this with a packet of summit or magnum just out of curiosity. Just adding the hop pellets to a short boil is pretty economical though. It takes very little to get there in a half hour boil.

H.W.

 

[Arrheinous]

If the bittering does curb off after 2-3 months then use more rather than chuck it. Does 'not fresh' imply it's weaker or it's getting funky?

Morebeer says 3 months but you can store this at low temperature (like a beer fridge) and the manufacturer says it'll be good for 24 months. But... how long does it sit in a LHBS or warehouse at room temp?

It's a 30 cent difference, a penny or two per serving. And for my fast process it'll cut out a lot extra mash hops when trying to get just simple clean bitterness and doing so at >15 IBU. Now that I'm looking into it I'll probably add this Isohop stuff to my stockpile. This could open up bigger beers.

 

[brokebucket]

I skimmed thru this post and didnt see anything about it, so I will pose the question (excuse me if it were already covered):

I noticed the OP is using hot water, presumably from a water heater to get a jump on heating. I feel like I have heard this is not a good practice due to the scale that can build up in your water heater.

Thoughts?

 

[Owly055]

I skimmed thru this post and didnt see anything about it, so I will pose the question (excuse me if it were already covered):

I noticed the OP is using hot water, presumably from a water heater to get a jump on heating. I feel like I have heard this is not a good practice due to the scale that can build up in your water heater.

Thoughts?

Good point......... Where I live my well water is superb. It doesn't build up scale on things, so it isn't an issue. I know of a lot of places where I wouldn't dream of doing this. Even the coffee pot doesn't need to de-limed. I should go into the bottled water business. This is superior to most of the bottled water that's available.

H.W.

 

[TexasWine]

Hey Howard. Skimmed over your quest to cut down on the time spent waiting in your brew day. Not sure if anyone has shared this link with you, but it sounds like a way to save some time. I just bought two 1500 watt immersion heaters and I'm gonna give it a whirl with an STC-1000 I'm building.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=381737

Also, since you're doing small batches, have you considered heating up to strike temp in your oven? Some ovens come with a delay timer (at least mine does) and you could put your kettle and strike water in the oven the night before. The just set your timer and temp so that you're at strike temp when you wake up, or get home from work, or the bar.

Hope this helps in some way.

 

[Owly055]

I'm all gas....... and no timers. I have thought of hooking a hotplate up to a timer and PID controller. I've also considered doughing in an going to bed, or doughing in to cold water or 130 deg tap water, with my pump primed and ready to go, and having the PID set, with a timer to set the whole process in motion an 90 minutes before I get up in the AM. This would have the mash cycle complete by the time I got up, and would be very simple to build.


H.W.

 

[Arrheinous]

Filtering tap water followed by a tankless water heater could be an optimal setup. Those heaters are expensive but heat the water to temp as it flows by.

 

[Owly055]

Hey Howard. Skimmed over your quest to cut down on the time spent waiting in your brew day. Not sure if anyone has shared this link with you, but it sounds like a way to save some time. I just bought two 1500 watt immersion heaters and I'm gonna give it a whirl with an STC-1000 I'm building.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=381737

Also, since you're doing small batches, have you considered heating up to strike temp in your oven? Some ovens come with a delay timer (at least mine does) and you could put your kettle and strike water in the oven the night before. The just set your timer and temp so that you're at strike temp when you wake up, or get home from work, or the bar.

Hope this helps in some way.

It's another option......... It would pair with a PID controller and thermocouple, and provide me with properly heated strike water at the get go........... Thanks!

I'm also looking at using an ordinary hot plate, along with my cheap little pump, and doughing into hot tap water just before bedtime. A 24 hour timer ( I already have a good one), would energize the hotplate and pump, the PID would of course stay on so it held it's settings. At 4:00 AM or whatever time I calculated, it would kick on and heat the mash to 150 or so, while circulating, and hold it there until I got up. With BIAB this would work fine. When I got up, I'd lift the pot onto the main burner, crank up the heat and squeeze the bag.

My favorite idea is a simplified reverse circulation system with a grain tube above fluid level. When the heat reached mash temp (not strike temp), the pump would kick on and circulate up through the grain tube, returning the wort to the pot. The PID controller would maintain mash temp. The whole thing would operate on a timer, just like your coffee pot. When I got up at 6:00 am, I'd be ready to go straight to the boil. My pump would rest submerged in the water / wort, with the motor above. The wort would drain back down into the pot through the centrifugal pump when you shut the system off.

You pretty much gotta be there for the boil........ or buy a PicoBrew............


H.W.

 

[Arrheinous]

The Styrian Aurora Blonde I made (no boil) was killing it at the party today. This was done with no boil, a week and a half to ferment, then chilling and gelatin finings for three days. Came out very - but not perfectly - clear. And quite a bit of hoppiness.

1.042 OG (70% eff)
7.5# Maris Otter
0.5# White Wheat
Mash at 152
1oz Styrian Aurora in sparge/strike water; 2oz in mash
1qt WLP005 slurry
Ferment at 68F for 10 days
Dry hop 3 days with 1oz Glacier
Gelatin finings for 3 days

This beer took 2.5 hours to make, from taking out all the stuff to clean up.

 

[jbaysurfer]

If you're going as far as isomerized hop extracts, why is malt extract off the table? Just do a no boil with DME and isomerized hop extract, pitch, clean. Brewday over.

 

[Owly055]

If you're going as far as isomerized hop extracts, why is malt extract off the table? Just do a no boil with DME and isomerized hop extract, pitch, clean. Brewday over.

That misses the point entirely............ You could just as well say..... Just go over to the local microbrewery and get a couple of growlers. The point is not how little time can you spend brewing....... the answer to that would be zero. This is about reducing the time involved in all grain brewing to the point where it isn't an all day project. I could easily set up to do large brews..... half barrel let's say, and my time per gallon of beer would be a fraction of what it is today. I brew 2.5 gallon all grain batches because I enjoy experimenting with malts and hops. I don't enjoy spending many hours waiting. This began with the decision that 4.5 hours to brew a 2.5 gallon all grain brew was absurd, and needed to be reduced.
I'm delving into the extremes, but ultimately will settle on a reasonable process that gives me good quality beer in an acceptable length of time. Yesterday's brew took an hour and a half start to finish including cleanup. I accomplished this by cutting my mashing time, and boil time, and crash cooling in 5 minutes.
I don't expect to end up anywhere near this number in the end...... It's just too rushed. I don't intend to ever spend 4.5 hours on a 2.5 gallon brew again. The answer that is shaping up is the unattended mash. With a hot plate, a 24 hour timer, a pump, and a PID controller I see no reason why I can't dough in before I go to bed, and have the hotplate and pump kick on, bringing the mash up to mashing temp. That's all pretty simple.

 

[adiochiro3]

Increase your grain bill and reduce your mash time. You can get conversion in way under an hour. Do a no chill BIAB with a monster burner and you should be pretty fast.

Other than as an academic exercise, what's the point? My goal is to enjoy my brew day and make nice beer.

I race a clock all day at work - brewing is my relaxation time.

If I was really in a hurry, I'd just do partial mash.

^This,^ except if I was in a hurry, I probably wouldn't brew that day...

 

[TexasWine]

Just gotta say, this has been a really fun thread to follow. Lots of great ideas being batted around.

 

[EJay]

Owly - this is a great thread. Thanks for getting it going.

I've been a 1 gallon AG brewer because I like to experiment with different styles. I'm adjusting my capacity, like you, to 2.5 gals, in part because a 5G pot fits in my oven where I mash.

I love to see you pushing the edge of the envelope. Now, for instance, even if I go a traditional route, I have learned that its OK if I cut, say, the mash short by 10 or 15 minutes. Keep up the experimenting!

 

[Owly055]

Owly - this is a great thread. Thanks for getting it going.

I've been a 1 gallon AG brewer because I like to experiment with different styles. I'm adjusting my capacity, like you, to 2.5 gals, in part because a 5G pot fits in my oven where I mash.

I love to see you pushing the edge of the envelope. Now, for instance, even if I go a traditional route, I have learned that its OK if I cut, say, the mash short by 10 or 15 minutes. Keep up the experimenting!

For us little guys, brew time makes a proportionally larger difference.

What I'm doing may seem extreme with my current record being 1 hour 40 minutes start to finish including cleanup, but the real goal is to find what works and what doesn't so I can hone in on a good workable procedure.

* I know that starch conversion takes very little time with a fine grind, but that the fermentability is lowered when mash time is cut too short. Clearly 10 minutes is just a tad too short. It looks like 20-30 minutes is probably going to be realistic.

* I know that there is a price in terms of more trub, hence less beer because of the finer grind, but that the increased mash efficiency more than offsets the trub loss. The answer of course is to counter the trub loss with a bit more water, so there's no net loss. I'm hitting 90% like clockwork.

* I don't yet know how much difference boil times really make yet. My most recent brew was half an hour, and my mash was 20 minutes.


***** My shortened process brews are finally being bottled. I'll probably be trying my first "speed brew" this evening. It's only been in bottle conditioning for about 5 days, but I can't wait to see what I've got. This is the brew with the 10 minute mash and one hour boil. I won't be tasting my "rolling stone" which was a 45/45 (mash/boil time) brew, until the weekend. I've been accelerating the bottling just a bit....... impatient, but I'm out of bottles at the moment.

H.W.

 

[jbaysurfer]

That misses the point entirely............

I think this is unfair. I went back and read the OP, it doesn't specify that it HAS to be all grain in order to qualify for your (Self defined) "challenge". If you're going to hold our feet to the fire on honest suggestions, you need to rewrite that whole post.

Other posters suggested hop extract, I suggested malt extract. The latter can save a lot more time then the former.

I humbly suggest your beer body and consistency will be more well rounded and repeatable by using malt extract rather then rushing the mashing process in an all grain brew. Just like hop extract, someone has already taken the time to process the grain for you.


I'm trying to contribute here. It's a public forum so I'm well within my right to do so, and I admitted to you I thought the whole point of trying to speed the brewday (beyond 4.5hours anyway) was something that didn't appeal to me, so I can see where the adversarial tone is coming from...

But nevertheless I've contributed actual suggestions to your thread at this point that come from a lot of experience. Try to lose the adversarial attitude towards me. I might yet come up with an idea you like that can help.

 

[RM-MN]

For us little guys, brew time makes a proportionally larger difference.

What I'm doing may seem extreme with my current record being 1 hour 40 minutes start to finish including cleanup, but the real goal is to find what works and what doesn't so I can hone in on a good workable procedure.

* I know that starch conversion takes very little time with a fine grind, but that the fermentability is lowered when mash time is cut too short. Clearly 10 minutes is just a tad too short. It looks like 20-30 minutes is probably going to be realistic.

* I know that there is a price in terms of more trub, hence less beer because of the finer grind, but that the increased mash efficiency more than offsets the trub loss. The answer of course is to counter the trub loss with a bit more water, so there's no net loss. I'm hitting 90% like clockwork.

* I don't yet know how much difference boil times really make yet. My most recent brew was half an hour, and my mash was 20 minutes.


***** My shortened process brews are finally being bottled. I'll probably be trying my first "speed brew" this evening. It's only been in bottle conditioning for about 5 days, but I can't wait to see what I've got. This is the brew with the 10 minute mash and one hour boil. I won't be tasting my "rolling stone" which was a 45/45 (mash/boil time) brew, until the weekend. I've been accelerating the bottling just a bit....... impatient, but I'm out of bottles at the moment.

H.W.

You know that 10 minutes is too short based on how many times of using that? To me, your .005 higher FG can be attributed to other factors too. My 10 minute mash ended .010 below what I expected, much bigger difference but I attributed that to a wild yeast because none of the yeasts I was using should get me a FG of 1.002 or lower.

 

[Owly055]

I think this is unfair. I went back and read the OP, it doesn't specify that it HAS to be all grain in order to qualify for your (Self defined) "challenge". If you're going to hold our feet to the fire on honest suggestions, you need to rewrite that whole post.

Other posters suggested hop extract, I suggested malt extract. The latter can save a lot more time then the former.

I humbly suggest your beer body and consistency will be more well rounded and repeatable by using malt extract rather then rushing the mashing process in an all grain brew. Just like hop extract, someone has already taken the time to process the grain for you.


I'm trying to contribute here. It's a public forum so I'm well within my right to do so, and I admitted to you I thought the whole point of trying to speed the brewday (beyond 4.5hours anyway) was something that didn't appeal to me, so I can see where the adversarial tone is coming from...

But nevertheless I've contributed actual suggestions to your thread at this point that come from a lot of experience. Try to lose the adversarial attitude towards me. I might yet come up with an idea you like that can help.

Jay:

I didn't mean to take an adversarial tone........ sorry if I offended you. I definitely did not mean anything personal, and welcome any ideas. I would hope that everybody participating in this discussion takes away something of use to them.

You are correct in that this was not stated to be exclusively about all grain brewing.....Your points are well taken....... For me extract brewing is entirely off the table. Not only is it not what I want to do, but it radically increases cost. My grain cost for a 2.5 gallon batch is under $3. With DME, the cost goes up to over $15. Clearly time has value, but this is a leisure time activity.... a hobby, and typically we don't value time in the same manner as we do when working. DME or LME knock over an hour out of a conventional brew, about half that when you realize that a half hour mash will do the job with a reasonably fine crush and BIAB. DME makes sense for a base malt, as I generally use 2 row for most of my grain bill, and you can do a lot with steeping grains, but it doesn't make economic sense for me.

We looked at hop extract as a way to shorten the boil 50% without having to double the bittering hops...... something that does make economic sense. On the other hand, I can and will probably simply use Summit or Magnum for bittering, if I choose to go with a half hour boil.


H.W.

 

[Owly055]

I couldn't resist sampling my "speed test" brew, though brew day was only 15 days ago. It was bottled 5 days ago. This was a 1 one gallon test brew that I "threw together" with what I had on hand, and ironically it seems that most of the "throw together" brews I make are quite good.

It is slightly heavy and rich (sweet), but not excessively so. The head is awesome, probably due to having a significant amount of unfermentable sugars in it. It's a bit "green" yet, but the flavor profile is excellent. First wort hopped with Motueka, Motueka at 30 min, and Nelson at 10 min, 4 grams each. Grain bill for a one gallon brew 2 lbs 2 row, 1/4 pound CR60. Measured ABV 5.2% when I expected a tad under 6% (normal mash) IBU 41 makes it work. A rich slightly sweet malty beer. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it........ In fact I like enough that I will experiment with the combination again.

In expectation of being a bit sweet, I hopped it higher than I normally do... I'm usually in the low to mid 30's. The result is far better than I had expected.

In conclusion, the ultra short mash (10 minutes) seems to be a tool to achieve a bit of additional sweetness. There really is no way to compensate for this sweetness other than hops. Leave the crystal out, and the flavor profile is going to change. Expect a sweet beer with a 10 minute mash.


H.W.

 

[Arrheinous]

If nothing, this is all a great discussion of what is possible now which even the crazy Belgians of the old days couldn't turn into a lasting style.

With things like sanitizers, pure yeast, well-modified malts, refrigeration, and reliable steel or plastic vessels we can do what wasn't feasible back then. Many of the styles and techniques we use today were made to accommodate those hardships that aren't a factor anymore.

EDIT: And doing it all-grain instead of extract is the goal here.

 

[jbaysurfer]

Jay:

I didn't mean to take an adversarial tone........ sorry if I offended you. I definitely did not mean anything personal, and welcome any ideas. I would hope that everybody participating in this discussion takes away something of use to them.

You are correct in that this was not stated to be exclusively about all grain brewing.....Your points are well taken....... For me extract brewing is entirely off the table. Not only is it not what I want to do, but it radically increases cost. My grain cost for a 2.5 gallon batch is under $3. With DME, the cost goes up to over $15. Clearly time has value, but this is a leisure time activity.... a hobby, and typically we don't value time in the same manner as we do when working. DME or LME knock over an hour out of a conventional brew, about half that when you realize that a half hour mash will do the job with a reasonably fine crush and BIAB. DME makes sense for a base malt, as I generally use 2 row for most of my grain bill, and you can do a lot with steeping grains, but it doesn't make economic sense for me.

We looked at hop extract as a way to shorten the boil 50% without having to double the bittering hops...... something that does make economic sense. On the other hand, I can and will probably simply use Summit or Magnum for bittering, if I choose to go with a half hour boil.


H.W.

Nah, don't sweat it. I've been made aware in another thread that I need to recalibrate myself when it comes to the internet. Thick skin is more mandatory now then ever.

Best of luck on your quest. I may have no desire to get my brewday as short as what you're pursuing, but if I can save myself a half hour on a brewday based on what you guys discuss, it'll get me to bed earlier (since I tend to brew at night....maybe sleep deprivation is part of my problem LOL!).

 

[Owly055]

Jay:
It looks at this point like BIAB is a critical element to time saving. It allows time saving over a conventional mash and sparge that is significant, and with a finer crush, makes it possible to achieve 90% efficiency, which is nothing to sneeze at. It also allows a reduced mash time, all of which adds up to an easy hour savings over conventional mash and sparge. A few brewers here have "gone backward" to BIAB from mash and sparge.

I actually built a mash tun and was going to put it into use until I bought the BC mill and started turning in 90% regularly. The mash tun became a cooler again, and a friend bought it from me........ I could see no point in going there. I don't see any reason to mash longer than about 30 minutes with a suitable crush unless you want a super dry beer. I already know that I seem to gain nothing between a 30 minute mash with a fine crush, and an hour mash with a more normal crush.

The other big time saver for me was building an immersion chiller, and ice tubes. 20' of 1/2" copper coil with a good blast of cold water going through it and 5 ice tubes (restaurant ketchup bottles with lead weights glued into the bottom, and filled with ice), I can chill 2.5 gallons from boil to pitch in 5 minutes!!

All I can do at this point is play with mash and boil times to see what really is needed. The sweet spot for mashing is somewhere between 20 and 30 minutes........There's not a lot of minutes to gain there. What I really don't know is how much I can cut boil times before compromising quality. That's going to vary depending on the beer. I know from testing a brew with a 45/45 (mash/boil) that I can't detect DMS, or any other negative qualities at that level. I don't see me going under half an hour due to hops. A 30/30 brew yields slightly over 1.5 hours. An hour and a half is a bit to hurried. I'm currently thinking that a half hour mash with a 45 minute boil is about where I'll end up, and slightly under 2 hours total brew day. That's a huge improvement over 4.5 hours!

As I mentioned before, I intend to look at doing an auto start mash.....doughing in at a low temp, and using a timer to kick my pump and a hotplate on, with a PID for temp control, so I wake up ready to do the boil.

H.W.

H.W.

 

[wobdee]

How much does base malt choice play into these quick mash conversions? I suppose most are using US 2 row that is highly modified, what about a less modified Euro Pils malt?

 

[brettwasbtd]

Just got through reading this thread, awesome stuff! Would you mind posting pics of your crush next time?

I am always looking for ways to speed up brewday and this thread is full of good ideas

 

[RM-MN]

Just got through reading this thread, awesome stuff! Would you mind posting pics of your crush next time?

I am always looking for ways to speed up brewday and this thread is full of good ideas

The picture I have of my grains looks a lot like every other picture of crushed grains but if you want to just imagine it, think corn meal with shredded husks mixed in. Here's the picture: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/photo/p1070971-62856.html

 

[brettwasbtd]

The picture I have of my grains looks a lot like every other picture of crushed grains but if you want to just imagine it, think corn meal with shredded husks mixed in. Here's the picture: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/photo/p1070971-62856.html

Thanks, definitely finer than I crush, granted I haven't ever adjusted the settings on my barley crusher. Shredded husks is a good way of describing it and it looks like your endosperms get busted about 3 times finer than mine.

 

[masonsjax]

Seems I adjust my barley crusher several times per year. The roller gap changes slightly with the seasons.

 

[Owly055]

The picture I have of my grains looks a lot like every other picture of crushed grains but if you want to just imagine it, think corn meal with shredded husks mixed in. Here's the picture: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/photo/p1070971-62856.html

What's the spacing on your rollers? I'm running .010 for my second crush

H.W.

 

[Owly055]

Seems I adjust my barley crusher several times per year. The roller gap changes slightly with the seasons.

I adjust mine every time I crush..... takes a few seconds using index marks I'm made.


H.W.