Couple of Questions Regarding Winter Ale

[todd49401]

I have my basic recipe for a holiday ale, but have some questions about additions.

Recipe:
12 oz. caramel 80L
4 oz. chocolate malt
4 oz. black patent malt
6.3 lbs gold malt syrup- 60 min
1 oz. Brewers gold bittering hops- 60 min
1 oz. Willamette hops- 15 min
1 lb. honey- 15 min
1 oz. dried ginger root- 60 min
At flameout:
1 tsp each of cinnamon, ginger, nutmeg, coriander
1 oz. bitter orange peel

I am wondering if I should add more grains- I have 1 lb. dark crystal malt available...should I add that in addition to what I'm already using?

I also have .5 oz. of Northern Brewer mulling spices- I have heard bad things about them, but if I add for 60 minutes will it mellow the spices out while providing flavor?

Should I add more cinnamon? I want a nice bold holiday spice flavor but not too similar to a pumpkin spice because I already have one fermenting.

I also have 1 oz. of US Goldings hops, so if I added more grains, should I add the extra oz. of hops?

I have another spiced winter ale fermenting that used Nottingham's. Should I use the yeast cake from that or use a Scottish Ale yeast that I have available...

Thanks everyone!

 

[Brew_4iT]

base grains are more fermentable and will add more towards your gravity than specialty grains. That is why you would pick up the tastes from the specialty grains and is used mostly for flavoring. Seems to be a good balance, I would throw another lb. of 2 row with the specialty grains. Usually 9 lbs in total of LME DME and grains will get you around a 4.5- 5% abv beer. With a pound of honey it is going to finish pretty dry.

 

[Jebu1788]

base grains are more fermentable and will add more towards your gravity than specialty grains. That is why you would pick up the tastes from the specialty grains and is used mostly for flavoring. Seems to be a good balance, I would throw another lb. of 2 row with the specialty grains. Usually 9 lbs in total of LME DME and grains will get you around a 4.5- 5% abv beer. With a pound of honey it is going to finish pretty dry.

9lbs of LME or DME gets you a 4.5-5% beer?? That all depends on batch size. I assume he's going for 5 gallons. Thinking back to my extract days it was usually two 3.3lb bags of LME for me to get a 5% beer.

Beersmith estimates the above to be 1.058 for the OG on 5 gallons. I usually think of winter warmers as being bigger so another pound or two of base malt wouldn't hurt. Also, usually, they are maltier and sweeter, so I would bump the crystal up to at least 1 pound.

Also, I wouldn't boil the spices for 60 minutes. I've heard of some people doing it, but it can also give it a tannin taste I've heard. Most people boil for the last 5-10 minutes. As far as hops and yeast, that's up to you! Both Notty and Scottish ale would work well here, and the hop level is fine here, but if you wanted some more hops, US goldings would work well with what you have.

 

[Brew_4iT]

you get bags of LME??

Well I've never just used LME find that kind of funny... but I suppose using just concentrated liquid extract would take less. I wasn't factoring the honey, obviously more fermentable and would find a higher gravity with a pound of that, If he wants it to finish more dry that's fine.

General rule of thumb even talked with a guy at a good LHBS store about it who knows his stuff. Every time I use beer calculus, and finish a beer I find generally around 9 lbs. of grains with some extract (sometimes use a can of 3.3) comes out to that.

Sure you weren't adding a pinch or two of sugar?

 

[Jebu1788]

you get bags of LME??

...

General rule of thumb even talked with a guy at a good LHBS store about it who knows his stuff. Every time I use beer calculus, and finish a beer I find generally around 9 lbs. of grains with some extract (sometimes use a can of 3.3) comes out to that.

Sure you weren't adding a pinch or two of sugar?

When I did extract recipes (coincidentally, I'm back to PM from AG for now), American Brewmasters in Raleigh, NC had 3.3 foil bags of "American Classic" LME which I had great success with. I would usually add 1 lb of crystal too, so it was 6.6lbs LME + 1lb of crystal for a 5% beer (OG between 1.050-1.054, FG between 1.012-1.018). The only sugar I used was priming for bottle conditioning.

As far as the OP's question, LME is less concentrated than DME, and adding honey will (as you said) increase the OG but it will dry it out, so bump up the crystal. Still, adding another pound of extract or base malts wouldn't be a bad idea (as both Brew_4iT and I have agreed).

 

[Brew_4iT]

Yeah I'm actually wrong about the LME, it is actually less. I've read that ratio before but got that mixed up it goes 1 lb of grain = .75 lbs LME or .6 lbs DME. Sorry about the confusion.

I think the beercalculus is off a little bit too I use, coincidentally just did a batch of braggot and the OG was supposed to be around 1.060 ended up around 1.080. Actually thought it would come out less and then whoa geez!? I even adjusted the attenuation for the yeast and honey I'm using, but it is free software. Looks like I'm going to start using ibrewmaster more on my ipod.

 

[todd49401]

base grains are more fermentable and will add more towards your gravity than specialty grains. That is why you would pick up the tastes from the specialty grains and is used mostly for flavoring. Seems to be a good balance, I would throw another lb. of 2 row with the specialty grains. Usually 9 lbs in total of LME DME and grains will get you around a 4.5- 5% abv beer. With a pound of honey it is going to finish pretty dry.

Ok, you lost me at base grains vs. specialty grains...All I know is that I have grains and I steep at 150 degrees for 20 minutes...which are considered base in my recipe?

So I should use the extra 1 lb grains (total of 36 oz.) to counter the dryness the honey may create? Should I just skip the honey and add another 1-2 lbs of dry malt extract? I'd like a big beer- not 5-6%...I'd like at least 7, preferably 8%. The holiday ale I did a couple weeks ago had an OG of 1.076 using Nottingham's.

I am probably going to skip the mulling spices...don't want to risk ruining a batch given all of the poor reviews. Since I'm skipping those should I up the cinnamon, ginger, nutmeg, and bitter orange at flame out?

Sorry, I know- a lot of questions...but thanks for the replies so far!

 

[Jebu1788]

Base malts in your case would be 2-row. If you want 7% or more you'll need to add more fermentables for sure. If you have some DME, try something like this:


1.00 lb Light Dry Extract (8.0 SRM) Dry Extract 9.05 %
6.30 lb Pale Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM) Extract 57.01 %

1.50 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) Grain 13.57 %
1.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 9.05 %
0.125 lb Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 1.13 %
0.125 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 1.13 %

1.00 lb Honey (1.0 SRM) Sugar 9.05 % (at flameout)

1.00 oz Brewer's Gold [8.00 %] (60 min) Hops 25.9 IBU
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (20 min) Hops 9.8 IBU
1.00 oz Willamette [5.50 %] (5 min) Hops 3.5 IBU

You have lots of spices already, I wouldn't increase that. This gets an OG estimated by Beersmith of 1.075, so if you want it even higher toss in more DME. You'll want to steep the grains a little longer this time. (If you were up to it, you could switch out some extract for more 2-row and try a partial mash: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/easy-partial-mash-brewing-pics-75231/) At this point it would be good to add the ounce of Goldings hops too.

 

[todd49401]

Ok, I have some dme sitting around so I'll add another lb of that. I'll pick up some pale malt 2 row as well. Thanks for that link, it looks interesting!

If I don't do the partial mash and just steep the current grains, would I steep for 30 min instead of 20?

With the extra grains and another lb of dme, will it become more malty rather than dry? I'd like a good malt character.

I know you said don't increase spices, but say I do the 60 min dry ginger root boil, should I substitute the 1 tsp of ginger powder at end for maybe some allspice to get some clove character? Last year I made a winter warmer but the clove was too much.

 

[Brew_4iT]

Just be prepared for a little extra aging since your beer will probably finish over 7% abv. maybe even 8% per 12 oz volume if you have a medium high attenuating yeast. You looking for a strong ale that will take atleast 3 months of conditioning? Is this for christmas or for fall?

 

[todd49401]

Yeah, the reason why I'm making it now is so I can age it for 3-4 months...I did the same with my winter warmer last year but the clove character never went away even after 4 months of aging.

Over 8% would be great! Do you think maybe a couple oz of bourbon at secondary or bottling would be good? Or leave that for another time? I don't want to do the 12-16 oz to make it a bourbon barrel, maybe just a little to add a warming alcohol note with some smokiness.

 

[Brew_4iT]

I know at my LHBS they sell oak chips, and I believe another that has been soaked in whiskey or bourbon or something or other. I forget exactly what they are called off the top of my head. That might be fun to play around with, I almost bought some. See if I can find it online. That recipe does look good by jeburgdo.

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/homebrewing-ingredients/beer-additives/oak.html

I might have to get in on this winter ale thing, good call thinking ahead. I've been so wrapped up in thinking about pumpkin ale, octoberfest ale, and other fall beers didn't even take it into consideration.

 

[todd49401]

I love making winter ales, you can have a lot of fun with them...but some people don't like them at all due to the spicing.

My pumpkin ale is in secondary right now- it's only 5.5% abv though. I have bourbon barrel imperial stout that's been aging for about 6 weeks (9% abv)...plan to let it age until November, maybe December if I can actually be patient enough.

Maybe I should skip the honey altogether and just add 2 lbs. of dme...

 

[Brew_4iT]

Sounds like you know your stuff, that bourbon barrel imperial stout sounds delicious. I think a half pound of honey would be fine, maybe try something like cold crashing the beer after 10 days of fermenting and drop most of the yeast out of suspension, then rack it onto the honey and oak chips at 68-70 deg f for 3-4 months conditioning. The honey shouldn't completely ferment out, it will be less dry and have more of a honey taste. There will still be some yeast present.

 

[todd49401]

I just finished brewing this and here was my final recipe with OG at the bottom:

35 minute steep at 150-160 degrees with:
0.75 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L
1.00 lb Simpsons Dark Crystal
1.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 9.05 %
0.25 lb Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 1.13 %
0.25 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 1.13 %

2.50 lb Light Dry Extract (8.0 SRM) Dry Extract 9.05 % (60 min)
6.30 lb Pale Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM) Extract 57.01 % (60 min)

1.00 lb Honey (1.0 SRM) Sugar 9.05 % (5 min)

1.00 oz Brewer's Gold [8.00 %] (60 min) Hops 25.9 IBU
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (20 min) Hops 9.8 IBU
1.00 oz Willamette [5.50 %] (5 min) Hops 3.5 IBU

Spices at flameout (except 1 oz. dried ginger root- 60 min...had extra, wanted to get rid of it...filtered out at flame out).

OG: 1.086...expected FG 1.018-1.022 (not sure if I'm right given the fact that I've had several beers at this juncture. The other winter ale I made had a FG of 1.015...1.074 OG...79.7% attenuation.

 

[Jebu1788]

OG: 1.086...expected FG 1.018-1.022 (not sure if I'm right given the fact that I've had several beers at this juncture. The other winter ale I made had a FG of 1.015...1.074 OG...79.7% attenuation.

Attenuation will depend a lot on which yeast you went with. Scottish ale yeasts tend to have a lower attenuation than other yeasts like Nottingham. Still, given the high amount of crystal malt, and it being an extract batch, I would guess it would finish on the higher side of that range.

I think that you'll have a quite tasty dark winter ale on your hands in a few months! And Brew4iT, now is definitely a great time to get your winter ale going! If you guys are interested in oak, see if you can find Jack Daniel's smoking chips. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/jack-daniels-oak-barrell-chips-207780/ I think they work great, it's a whole lot cheaper than buying oak from a brewing store, and everyone I've heard likes them.

Glad we could give some advice. Report back when that bad boy is done!

 

[todd49401]

I used the Nottingham's. Even if it finished on the high side of the range (which in my opinion is good since it will have a maltier profile) it will still have a nice "warmer" abv which is what I am hoping for.

I'll keep everyone posted on the progress of the brew.

 

[todd49401]

Also, I haven't used the JD smoking chips, but I normally will use 2 oz American oak chips (not cubes) and soak them with 10-12 oz. Maker's Mark for 2 weeks, then add to secondary. Perfection at its finest.

 

[Jebu1788]

Also, I haven't used the JD smoking chips, but I normally will use 2 oz American oak chips (not cubes) and soak them with 10-12 oz. Maker's Mark for 2 weeks, then add to secondary. Perfection at its finest.

Agreed! I've just finished a bourbon stout using 2 oz of JD chips soaked in 8 oz of Maker's. It's delicious. I do have to say, I figured 8oz of Maker's would impact a more forward bourbon flavor. It's certainly there, but more subtle than I expected.

 

[Brew_4iT]

prosted thread!

Think I'm going to have to give those JD chips a shot. Looking forward to hear back feedback, I like spiced beers especially in winter (seasonal thing got used to with sam adams).

I'm falling a little behind with my pipeline, snuck in a batch of strawberry blonde for the misses (and looking forward to try myself as well). Actually haven't even gotten to my octoberfest ale yet. So might not be able to keep up with my results of a winter ale, but I'll keep subscribed to the thread.

 

[todd49401]

Well I have good news and bad news...

Bad news:
My wife came home as I was letting the 5 gallons cool to pitching temperature and I had the yeast cake sitting in a separate bowl...she dumped it down the drain! Needless to say I was very upset about it. It was at about 80 degrees and I was waiting until it went down to 70.

Good news:
I put the wort in the fridge until yesterday and I pitched two packets of Nottingham's after a trip to the LHBS. I hope that doesn't change anything in the end.

The Nottingham Army was off to a slow start in the Battle of Sugar but it's coming along, slowly but surely it is bubbling. Hopefully when I get home tonight it will be bubbling more furiously.

 

[Brew_4iT]

Oh man that sux, atleast you get to start out fresh with the yeast.. I thought at first you said your wife dumped the wort! My heart stopped for a second lol

I've had a couple batches where I didn't use a starter and took over a day to start going, but always do. I think I actually read that it is better for beer in the long run, forget exactly the reason why, Revvy was talking about it in a thread I stumbled upon.

 

[todd49401]

I suppose if she got really mad at me she might dump the wort. lol

Is it maybe so they can naturally replicate in their permanent environment? If they replicate in a starter, don't they get lazy once they meet their real food?

 

[Brew_4iT]

^ only if you use corn sugar or cane sugar I believe. That's why generally people use DME, it wakes the yeast up and also multiplies them (I forget the exact numbers), but if you pitch too little yeast it will stress them out and give off an egg smell.

I think Revvy was saying (can't find the thread now) that if it starts off too vigorous it will end sooner and the yeast wont do as good a job. Like they wont get a good enough assesment of the situation before hand, so wont do as an efficient job.

 

[Jebu1788]

I second that you should be just fine. Especially in the light that I too, read your story and thought for a second that your wife had dumped all your wort! Hah, that would have been awful.

 

[Brew_4iT]

How did the fermentation go todd? Still going at all or mostly done?

 

[todd49401]

Sorry I haven't posted in a while. We moved last weekend...buckled the car boys in just like kids...

So I just checked the final gravity and it is 1.022! Nice 8.4% abv. I was hoping for over 8 so that's great.

I had a little taste and the alcohol is definitely present on the nose. The bitter Orange comes through on the front end and the spices leave a nice taste in the mouth. I will probably let it sit another week or two in the primary then tack it to secondary for a couple months.

Still havent decided whether or not to add whiskey and oak...

 

[Jebu1788]

You could always split it into smaller carboys and oak half... then compare and see which you like better.

 

[Brew_4iT]

You could always split it into smaller carboys and oak half... then compare and see which you like better.

I like this idea, but do what you want with it it's your brew!

This was an interested thread I stumbled upon in case you wanted more info on oaking. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/how-long-should-i-leave-beer-oak-cubes-164666/

 

[todd49401]

Thanks for the link...I read that thread before...very informative.

As far as splitting, right now I'm at max capacity. I have three secondaries with brews aging and this holiday ale and also a pumpkin ale are in my primaries. And my only keg is full with a saison. Plus I have an ipa on deck...man I'm overloaded. So I guess its all or nothing. I will probably just skip it and next year I will plan on three batches of holiday ale...one without oak and whiskey, one aged with oak and whiskey for a couple months and one aged a couple weeks to a month in oak and whiskey.

Not sure if I'm kegging or bottling it yet, but I can send you both a couple bottles if you want. I hope it doesn't disappoint lol

 

[Brew_4iT]

That sounds awesome! I would love to try some homebrew.

Quite a pipeline you got going on. I just have a pumpkin ale, strawberry blonde, braggot, and summer ale with citra dryhopped kegged.

My pumpkin ale is actually a variety of squashes, butternut, spaghetti, accorn, and pumpkin puree. I boiled half of the squashes till it was tender because I heard the starches will be able to break down and when mashed with grain would help the conversion of the sugars. The other half I roasted with some maple sugar sprinkled on it, hopefully to get a nutty flavor from.

Strawberry blonde will be done soon, first fruit dryhopping I've done so not too sure how good it will come out.

You can try a few bottles from either batch if you like, I just don't think I'll be able to get a nicely conditioned winter ale going in time this year... Still haven't found the time to brew my octoberfest ale yet.. grrrr. Hate how behind I've gotten...

 

[todd49401]

Wow- it sounds like your pumpkin ale is much more advanced than mine! I just used pumpkin spice in mine at flameout lol. I actually have two batches of pumpkin ale- one in primary and one in secondary...one is super spiced and the other is toned down. I kegged the same recipe for my wedding last year and it was a huge hit...didn't even get to drink any because we had a keg of Guinness and I drank that the whole night.

Sounds like you have some nice ones in the pipeline. I would love to try your pumpkin ale and if you could spare a strawberry blonde that would be nice.

I have the Saison kegged- first time I ever dry hopped...turned out ok but maybe not dry enough. I used Saison Dupont dregs for the yeast. I have a nice bourbon barrel imperial stout in secondary. It's been aging two months so far, will try not to touch it until at least December.