Coopers Brew Kits...

[unionrdr]

That's fine, if you're happy with your beers. I would never tell anyone to change if they were totally happy with their beers.

I wonder if we went head-to-head with a Cooper's kit of yours vs. one of my beers which would be preferred?

Might be fun! I see where you're going with this. I understand the grain's freshness advantage. And just to get it out,I'm not settling for anything by way of cans. IDK,I just get something a bit different from can kits with other things added. Still pretty straight forward,but not what you'd expect,either. Once I get maybe one more bottled,it'd be nice to sit down with a few. And maybe some of my pit BBQ? I've been a student of that since I was a kid.Pop got me started on pit bbq & wine making. I often wondered what ever became of his beer stuff?

 

[Yooper]

Might be fun! I see where you're going with this. I understand the grain's freshness advantage. And just to get it out,I'm not settling for anything by way of cans. IDK,I just get something a bit different from can kits with other things added. Still pretty straight forward,but not what you'd expect,either. Once I get maybe one more bottled,it'd be nice to sit down with a few. And maybe some of my pit BBQ? I've been a student of that since I was a kid.Pop got me started on pit bbq & wine making. I often wondered what ever became of his beer stuff?

It would be fun! I only get to Ohio (Youngstown) about once or twice a year, but it would be fun!
I have a friend who has Mr. Beer and loves it. The beers are, well, ok. I mean she loves them, but I never turn down a free beer. The beers have a certain extract "twang" and a canned taste. But over all they aren't terrible. I'd say they are "ok" but not good if I had to label it. It's always fun tasting other homebrews and critiquing them.
In your area, one of my favorite beers in Burning River. I make a pale ale very much like it (all cascade) but it's just a little bit better in my opinion because it's missing that certain "flavor" that Great Lakes has in all their beers. If I ever get down your way, I'll bring you some!

 

[unionrdr]

It would be fun! I only get to Ohio (Youngstown) about once or twice a year, but it would be fun!
I have a friend who has Mr. Beer and loves it. The beers are, well, ok. I mean she loves them, but I never turn down a free beer. The beers have a certain extract "twang" and a canned taste. But over all they aren't terrible. I'd say they are "ok" but not good if I had to label it. It's always fun tasting other homebrews and critiquing them.
In your area, one of my favorite beers in Burning River. I make a pale ale very much like it (all cascade) but it's just a little bit better in my opinion because it's missing that certain "flavor" that Great Lakes has in all their beers. If I ever get down your way, I'll bring you some!

Cool! I'm about 2 hours west of Summit Racing in Akron. Let me know when you get out this way. Around the 3rd week of April,my Summer Pale should be ready. I'll have to fight to save some of the one in my avatar,though. I' guess I'll have to try to save a couple,just in case. From watching vids,& reading descriptions,the extract "twang" is a quinine-like flavor. As described by steeljan,anyway. I think it's just the Pride of Ringwood hops used for bittering. Maybe something from the yeast?
And Great Lakes is ok,but but the only one they make that I've liked so far was the Christmas one.

 

[THRobinson]

I'm still a newbie, but, have made about 4 batches of Coopers (and the like) and the end results were always very heavy and sweet. Drinkable, but not even close to what I'd buy in a bottle from a major brand or microbrewery. Came to this site to find out what I was doing wrong and had many people say it's just how those kits are if you follow the directions (various sugars left behind by the yeast).

I bought a kit online, extract kit that came with hops and grains and involved steeping and numerous boils etc.

I have the very basic brewing kit, only thing I needed extra was a 30qt cooking pot to switch from using the can-kits to the partial extract. It's only a week old but, the sample I took to check with my hydrometer already smelled and tasted more like a traditional beer than the Cooper type beer kits.

I know you said you wanted to stick with the brew and go kits, but may want to consider what I did if, like me, the beer made with can-kits were disappointing.

... just hoping this batch isn't.

 

[unionrdr]

Usually,if it comes out too sweet,it wasn't done fermenting yet. Or the temp went too far one way or the other,& the yeast went dormant. It didn't ferment all the way out. That's why I preach so much about how extract can kits & the like are quicker,but not necessarily easier.
Just another set of rules to follow,as it's been in my experience/knowledge thus far. And the hydrometer,combined with common sense is your greatest tool.

 

[jonmohno]

Im going to have to try one of these just for the experience. I actually got unispired with what to brew next and decided to use my tap water and brewed a similar beer as previously from a few weeks ago as opposed to using filtered or store bought spring and distilled for extract.

 

[THRobinson]

Usually,if it comes out too sweet,it wasn't done fermenting yet. Or the temp went too far one way or the other,& the yeast went dormant. It didn't ferment all the way out. That's why I preach so much about how extract can kits & the like are quicker,but not necessarily easier.
Just another set of rules to follow,as it's been in my experience/knowledge thus far. And the hydrometer,combined with common sense is your greatest tool.

I don't know, was a while back... tried a few times, even left it in the fermenter a few extra weeks with no luck. Alcohol % was fine, fermentation stopped... not sure if the yeast died (on all 4 attempts) or what.

Original thread was here. Had a few suggestions, but most seemed to suggest not using the can-kits.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/will-beer-get-less-sweet-age-166665/

 

[unionrdr]

I don't know, was a while back... tried a few times, even left it in the fermenter a few extra weeks with no luck. Alcohol % was fine, fermentation stopped... not sure if the yeast died (on all 4 attempts) or what.

Original thread was here. Had a few suggestions, but most seemed to suggest not using the can-kits.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/will-beer-get-less-sweet-age-166665/

Whew! I needed a beer & some vodka after all my preaching about Cooper's. I honestly don't see why so many have problems with it. I just learned to make sure pitch temp is no higher than,say 24C (75F). And keep brew temp to 20C (69F). That way,you minimize production of the fruity esters inherent in ale yeasts,& keep diecityls at bay. Not to mention,fusel alcohols (the so-called "hot" alcohols). Like I've been saying,canned extract kits have a whole different set of rules to follow. I don't care what anybody says. I've learned,& learned quickly. Being retired with a large family,I damn well better. Necessity is the mother of invention. That's why I still think my "recombinant extract theory" can work.

 

[THRobinson]

I'm sure there are ways to make it work... being a newbie myself I'm just trying to get a batch to work before I start experimenting.

 

[jollytim]

Jamil and John did an episode of Brew Strong on Extract kits. They 'discovered' to Jamil's amazement that kits don't get the respect that they should deserve. It really boils down to freshness of ingredients and the brewers process. The biggest majority of 'bad' beers truly is the brewers fault. They pretty much support unionrdr's points.

http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/698

 

[jmcdaniel0]

I assume from the out right that I messed something, when my first batch didnt come out the way I expected.

I am just starting out, I bought the coopers home brewing kit because it came recommended from a friend, and I was told it was quality, and had everything I would need to start off.

Of course I tried the included lager can.

I am looking to eventually get my skill enough to do all grain. I am an Organic Chemist, with a second degree in Physics, So the numbers behind why and how it works doesnt bother me. Its just the processes I need to get down. In this case all the knowledge in the world isnt worth a cent, when it comes to a more experienced brewer. Of which I have found several here.

So I am going to take the plunge, go into extract kits, and move logically and slowly up wards. Along the way, I hope t make some great tasting beer. If they dont come out right, then well, my sink can have a drink on me. Either way most of the fun is the getting there.

With all that said.

Here are the contents of my Kit I have set up. WHat else do I need to move on into extract and eventually all grain?

# 1 Plastic 30 liter fermenter with lid (and o ring),
makes 23 liters (6 Gallons)
# 1 Hydrometer
# 1 Sediment Reducer
# 1 Plastic Spoon
# 1 "Little Bottler" tube and bottling valve
# 1 Tap
# 1 Airlock
# 1 Airlock grommet
# 1 Thermometer
# 30 740ml PET bottles and caps

 

[THRobinson]

Jamil and John did an episode of Brew Strong on Extract kits. They 'discovered' to Jamil's amazement that kits don't get the respect that they should deserve. It really boils down to freshness of ingredients and the brewers process. The biggest majority of 'bad' beers truly is the brewers fault. They pretty much support unionrdr's points.

http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/698

Takes a while to skip past the ads in that audio link, but from what I heard near the end, he was surprised it came out well, but later says it's good but not as good as other methods. As well, it sounded like they come out well, but, doesn't sound like they're doing it by the directions. For a newbie like myself, I followed the directions and didn't add anything or deviate from the boiling times etc. If it said rolling boil for 1 hour, that's all I did.

They also said 'experiment' with it so... I wouldn't say it's usually the brewer's fault if they don't turn out, just depends on the level of experience to know when to deviate from the basic directions (which I don't yet).

Perhaps we shouldn't be debating the kits, rather the directions being too basic.

 

[jollytim]

They also said 'experiment' with it so... I wouldn't say it's usually the brewer's fault if they don't turn out, just depends on the level of experience to know when to deviate from the basic directions (which I don't yet).

I would say exactly that. I mean that's the point. That is why most people poo-poo kits as opposed to PM or AG. They usually are beginners when they do kits, and they don't turn out stellar. They move on to steeping, partial mashes, and all grain. By the time they get to that point, their process has improved. That is the main difference. Of course freshness of PM and AG, if all else is equal, but it usually isn't equal. They have more skill. Most usually don't go back to kits, or give them the same amount of attention. If they took their more advanced skill, and applied it to kits, just as they would an advanced technique, they would discover the same thing that Jamil and John point out in that episode. Most veterans deviate from the 'instructions' all the time, because they know the process.

They aren't claiming that beginners will rival veterans at any level. They are claiming that veterans attribute their success to the grain (whole vs extract) and not to the skill level attained. Get the basics down, and whatever method you use, will be MUCH better.

Perhaps we shouldn't be debating the kits, rather the directions being too basic.

I agree 100%. The directions should be much better. And they are on this board. Now that you are here, please read as much as you can. Learn about fresh ingredients, late extract additions, and temperature control. You will then be prepared to make exponentially better kit beers.

 

[C-Rider]

I agree about the poor instructions. I've done 3 cooper's kits and the instruction sheet is the same for the 2 ales and one wheat beer.

Trying to rush the whole thing in 3 weeks is why the results are what they are. I've moved on to extract + specialty grains. I only have one 1500 watt hotplate to cook on. No stove

My friend did a Cooper's ale last Sunday and wants to bottle today. I'm trying to talk him into waiting at least until next Sat. He opened it yesterday to check SG and then sent email saying he should bottle now. Tried to tell him to slow down.

 

[tomheff]

I don't know, was a while back... tried a few times, even left it in the fermenter a few extra weeks with no luck. Alcohol % was fine, fermentation stopped... not sure if the yeast died (on all 4 attempts) or what.

Original thread was here. Had a few suggestions, but most seemed to suggest not using the can-kits.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/will-beer-get-less-sweet-age-166665/

You used 1 kg of dextrose. Coopers recommends 500 grams of DME when making the English Bitter. If you want additional aroma hops, it's easy to add. You mentioned you couldn't find DME or anything else. Now apparently you can.

 

[Yooper]

Here are the contents of my Kit I have set up. WHat else do I need to move on into extract and eventually all grain?

# 1 Plastic 30 liter fermenter with lid (and o ring),
makes 23 liters (6 Gallons)
# 1 Hydrometer
# 1 Sediment Reducer
# 1 Plastic Spoon
# 1 "Little Bottler" tube and bottling valve
# 1 Tap
# 1 Airlock
# 1 Airlock grommet
# 1 Thermometer
# 30 740ml PET bottles and caps

I don't even know what some of that stuff is! What's a "sediment reducer"?

You need a siphon setup, a bucket with a lid and a hole in it, an airlock, hydrometer and basic cooking utensils to start. A 5 gallon batch fills about 50 12 ounce bottles (PET is fine). Here's a good reference: http://howtobrew.com/section1/chapter1-1.html

I would say exactly that. I mean that's the point. That is why most people poo-poo kits as opposed to PM or AG. They usually are beginners when they do kits, and they don't turn out stellar.

I would never poo-poo a kit I haven't tried. I wouldn't call myself a beginner, and both Cooper's and John Bull canned LME kits were virtually undrinkable by me. I understand temperature control, yeast health, etc. My friend ended up drinking all of it over a bit of time, but it was NEVER what I would call "good". She drank it and enjoyed it, but I thought it was swill.

You know, quality is important no matter what you're making. You can make a batch of great spaghetti, or you can open a can of spaghettio's. Coopers is Spaghettio's. Some people can tolerate it, but if you open a bottle of the best-made Cooper's and a bottle of Sierra Nevada, I think no one would claim the Cooper's is a craft beer. Drinkable, possibly, especially for non-beer snobs. But not "good".

 

[jollytim]

Yes, Yooper, I understand quality is important. In fact, I mentioned that later in my post, in a section that wasn't quoted.

I guess I should specify that I'm not defending Coopers. I'm defending kit beers, and the quality does vary. I've had kits that were.... eh. And I've had kits that I would put up against the majority of AG beers that I've had. Not every AG brewer is a superior brewer, just as not every kit brewer is an inferior brewer. I know you didn't say they were, I'm just clarifying.

And as you point out, you didn't care for the Coopers, but I would bet good money that the Coopers you made was FAR superior to the same kit made by a beginner. And if you turned your advanced skill to some of the other quality kits out there, you'd be amazed.

 

[superjunior]

I don't even know what some of that stuff is! What's a "sediment reducer"? .

just a little plastic insert that fits on the inside of the spigot (on the inside of the bucket) that faces upward as to not suck in the sediment below it.

 

[tomheff]

I don't even know what some of that stuff is! What's a "sediment reducer"?

You need a siphon setup, a bucket with a lid and a hole in it, an airlock, hydrometer and basic cooking utensils to start. A 5 gallon batch fills about 50 12 ounce bottles (PET is fine). Here's a good reference: http://howtobrew.com/section1/chapter1-1.html



I would never poo-poo a kit I haven't tried. I wouldn't call myself a beginner, and both Cooper's and John Bull canned LME kits were virtually undrinkable by me. I understand temperature control, yeast health, etc. My friend ended up drinking all of it over a bit of time, but it was NEVER what I would call "good". She drank it and enjoyed it, but I thought it was swill.

You know, quality is important no matter what you're making. You can make a batch of great spaghetti, or you can open a can of spaghettio's. Coopers is Spaghettio's. Some people can tolerate it, but if you open a bottle of the best-made Cooper's and a bottle of Sierra Nevada, I think no one would claim the Cooper's is a craft beer. Drinkable, possibly, especially for non-beer snobs. But not "good".

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/pages/zymurgy/online-extras/extract-wheat-beer-experiment

 

[Yooper]

And if you turned your advanced skill to some of the other quality kits out there, you'd be amazed.

Ah, but I HAVE done other kits! That's why I say the Cooper's and John Bull kits are garbage! I think the problem is that they are imported and the canned LME might sit on the shelf for a long time (years?) and the extract will not be as good as fresh.

I've done Brewer's Best (really pretty good!) and kits made up by austinhomebrew.com and also northernbrewer.com.

The AHS kits were outstanding, and I would say that I made a world-class beer with them. Better than you'd get at many brewpubs! The Northern Brewer were excellent- fresh grains crushed, and fresh LME and really good. The reason I lean more towards AHS is because they have like 10,000 kinds so you can make ANY beer you want.

The Brewer's Bests were pretty good, but you have to watch because sometimes they sit on a store's shelves a long time. The canned LME was ok, but not as fresh as the fresh LME in AHS and NB's kits.

With AHS and NB (and Midwest and Brewmaster's Warehouse, and probably morebeer), they actually don't make up the kit until you order it. You order it, they pour the LME and crush the grains and send them out. That makes a huge difference, and you can taste it.

I've done lots of kits, and for my son-in-law's birthday, he's getting a kit! I'm going to buy him an extract kit with steeping grains from AHS, probably this one: http://www.austinhomebrew.com/produ...=2170&osCsid=ae73163bb4945caa9865f9f262450bea
Part of his birthday gift will be one-on-one instructions and the chance to use some of my cool stuff!

My friend has a mr. beer and she LOVES the beer she makes. She always offers me one, and of course I take it! They aren't terrible, but they have a distinct "flavor" that comes from prehopped extract I guess. I can tell a mr. Beer beer a mile away, and the same is true with Cooper's. They have a distinct syrupy (although not sweet) flavor that I call "extract twang". My guess is it's because of the time spent in the can, and the prehopped extract. I think if it was super fresh, it would totally change- like the extract brews I've done with homebrew stores.

 

[C-Rider]

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/pages/zymurgy/online-extras/extract-wheat-beer-experiment

Wow! Right now I'm conditioning a Cooper's Wheat.

Two week primary
Tow weeks conditioning.

Looking very clear in the bottles

Chilling one now to taste in a few hours.

 

[lou2row]

Okay; way, way, waaayyyyyyy off topic:

Yooper, your little bunny ear avatar is adorable! What a cutie pie!

 

[jollytim]

I'm glad we had a chance to have this exchange Yooper. I see that we are actually in agreement. Perhaps the fact that this is a 'Coopers' thread led to a miscontruement. Like I said, I am not championing Coopers, but kits. And I'll repeat, quality does vary.

An experienced brewer can make an extract, or kit beer (depending on the kit) that rivals or exceeds the majority of AG beers out there. I know because I've done so, and so have you.

Now given, all things being equal, such as skill level, AG will most likely be superior. But we both know that most AG brewers are not exceptional. Present party excepted of course. I've learned a lot from you, and feel you probably are the most helpful Mod on this board. We've both been at his probably about he same amount of time, so don't let the post count or time registered fool you.

Now, I post a query. Could not the Coopers that you consider garbage, suffer from being too old? I mean, I've never seen a Coopers extract or kit that didn't have dust on the top and a faded label. Personally I've never bought a Coopers kit for that reason. I have no idea of their production process. They could be sub-par from the outset.

Could be the can too, I agree with the Mr. Beer description. I believe that the 'twang' that is oft bantered about is from the metallic taste from the can (though a lot of it is the inexperienced lumping together any unknown taste, such as green beer, collectively as twang). But here too, I've not seen a 'fresh' Mr. Beer extract.

That being said, I still don't think that these kits, even the Cooper's are as bad as the reputation states. To a more sophisticated palette, yes. But the majority of people brewing them ARE beginners and beginners make mistakes. The judgement of the final product usually seems to neglect the mistakes and blame the quality of the kit. Maybe those kits would never be World-Class, but that doesn't mean they are the nemesis either.

Plus to say unequivocally, that 'Coopers is garbage' may communicate to the people that really like Coopers, that they somehow are ignorant (for lack of a better word). I would rather try to draw more people into the hobby and not exclude them just because they prefer something I may not.

 

[kegtapper]

With all that said.

Here are the contents of my Kit I have set up. WHat else do I need to move on into extract and eventually all grain?

# 1 Plastic 30 liter fermenter with lid (and o ring),
makes 23 liters (6 Gallons)
# 1 Hydrometer
# 1 Sediment Reducer
# 1 Plastic Spoon
# 1 "Little Bottler" tube and bottling valve
# 1 Tap
# 1 Airlock
# 1 Airlock grommet
# 1 Thermometer
# 30 740ml PET bottles and caps

Get a pot big enough for doing full boils and a thermometer. I still use my coopers kit with extract. But the lid can be a big pita.

 

[GreenDragon]

Bout to bottle the Cooper's wheat kit this coming weekend. The FG sample I tasted a few days ago was very good for a not-quite-done, room temp, non-carbed, wheat kit. I didn't use the yeast that came with it though, I used Wyeast 3333 (American Wheat). Aside from the yeast it's all Cooper's though.

 

[unionrdr]

Well said jollytim. That's pretty much what I've been trying to convey. With proper precautions,Cooper's kits can come out quite good. But I also think they're great "building blocks". Combining them with other ingredients to improve them,or change them into another style is a lot of fun to me.
But,as I said before,if it comes out bad,blame the brewer,not the brew. They only have limitations if you let them.

 

[Pivzavod]

Coopers ingredients kits are nothing special, I've done 2 and never will go back. Their fermentors are the best on the market. I will pick their fermentor any day over Better Bottle.

 

[shawnbou]

Coopers ingredients kits are nothing special, I've done 2 and never will go back. Their fermentors are the best on the market. I will pick their fermentor any day over Better Bottle.

I agree. I use Better Bottles for secondary (when I do it) and bulk aging, but I use Coopers fermenters exclusively for primary. I loved my first one so much I bought a second Coopers beginner kit, and if I ever have to retire one of the fermenters I have, I'll most likely buy another kit just to get that fermenter. I can always find something to do with the rest of the stuff in that kit: use the LME to make starters, the corn sugar for priming, etc.

My first 4 brews were Coopers ingredient kits and I wasn't all that pleased with the results, even when I didn't follow the 1-week-primary / 2-weeks-in-bottles regimen in the directions. Now I'm doing AG and making much better beer, but I won't bash Coopers because they did get me into the hobby. There may be some people out there who start with Coopers and hate the results so much that they're turned off of homebrewing forever, and that's a shame ... but I'm sure that there are many more like me who get inspired to make better beer and move on to more traditional methods and ingredients.

Sure, Coopers simplifies things way too much, but that's not always a bad thing for a novice, especially in a hobby with so many factors and so much collected knowledge that it can be intimidating when you're just stepping into it. I don't ever plan to make another Coopers kit myself, but I would recommend it as an option for someone who wants to start homebrewing and isn't sure where to begin.

 

[tomheff]

Coopers was rated as the most fermentable malt extract in Ray Daniels' book "Designing Great Beers" on p.15.

The yeast in the beer kits is high quality. BTW, there is more than one variety used.

The original series yeast is an English ale strain similar to one that the Coopers uses in its bottle-conditioned ales. This strain was adapted for the homebrewing kits. They also uses another English ale strain and a Lager strain and some blends in their other kits.

Coopers has about a 60% market share worldwide when it comes to home beermaking kits. That is testament to their quality. The US market is predominately a hobbyist market where the brewer wants more of hands-on experience. However, as Unionrdr has stated you can use the Coopers beer kits as building blocks to enhance your experience. The IBUs and other data of each kit are published allowing the user to understand what he/she needs to do customize a kit to meet their palate. This makes for a lot shorter brewing day. The brewer can make beers more often and expensive equipment is not required. Remember this when the weather turns real nice and you don't want to spend the better part of a day making a beer. Particularly when it's hot outside and you have to fire up that 10 gallon burner.

 

[tomheff]

My first 4 brews were Coopers ingredient kits and I wasn't all that pleased with the results, even when I didn't follow the 1-week-primary / 2-weeks-in-bottles regimen in the directions. Now I'm doing AG and making much better beer, but I won't bash Coopers because they did get me into the hobby. There may be some people out there who start with Coopers and hate the results so much that they're turned off of homebrewing forever, and that's a shame ... but I'm sure that there are many more like me who get inspired to make better beer and move on to more traditional methods and ingredients.

Just to be fair. I have run across many that started homebrewing with extract and steeping grains and have never brewed again because the results were subpar and it wasn't worth the effort. Also, I have tasted more extract "twang" from these beers than those made from Coopers beer kits. You are correct about the over-simplification. But that is what makes it attractive to many beginners. "Making Beer the Hard Way", http://www.mnn.com/food/beverages/videos/diy-beer-the-hard-way is not a good marketing strategy to draw in new homebrewers.