Controling mash PH with dark and crystal malts

[demetman]

Hello guys and gals. I'm looking for some help with controlling mash ph in recipes using large percentages of roasted and crystal malts. I always struggle to predict and treat RO water to achieve an optimal mash ph when brewing porters and stouts. I am using Brun water 4.2. For example, today I brewed a stout. I added my grains accurately into Brun water grain input. I preceded to build my water profile to my preference in the water adjustment section. The mash ph was predicted at 4.87, so I adjusted with an addition of calcium hydroxide(pickling lime) with a prediction of 5.44. I measured ph at 35 min with a reading of 5.23 at 65F. I added .5g lime then measured again at 20 min with a reading of 5.33 at 71F. Another .5g addition got me to 5.52 at end of mash.

It seems counterintuitive to add So4, CaCl2 and calcium hydroxide to the mash to attempt to achieve a desired mash ph. I appreciate any recommendations to simplify this process for more accurate results.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Without knowing exactly what you entered I won’t even venture a guess. But it’s a good practice to take pH samples using the same temperature used to calibrate the meter. I calibrate and sample at 77F for consistency. The other thing is trying to readjust mash pH during the mash. You’re better off figuring out why the predicted pH was off before brewing the same recipe again.

 

[Vale71]

It seems counterintuitive to add So4, CaCl2 and calcium hydroxide to the mash to attempt to achieve a desired mash ph.

You don't have to do that. You can mash just with RO water and the wort will turn out just fine. If you want to achieve a certain water profile because of taste or authenticity you can add the salts to the wort in the boil kettle to achieve your target.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Isn't calcium deficiency one of the prime suspects when hazy beer is being discussed, or is the calcium deficiency association with annoying beer haze merely old and defunct/forgotten news now? Something about oxalate that if not complexed and precipitated out by adding calcium can lead to haze formation.

 

[demetman]

You don't have to do that. You can mash just with RO water and the wort will turn out just fine. If you want to achieve a certain water profile because of taste or authenticity you can add the salts to the wort in the boil kettle to achieve your target.

I add just enough salts to the mash to achieve at least 50ppm calcium. Also, I like to accentuate the malt profile and mouthfeel with a bit of CaCl2. My finished water looks like this. Calcium 100ppm(after lime addition), mag2, sodium1, sulfate15, chloride85. Salts are split between mash and sparge water.

 

[demetman]

You don't have to do that. You can mash just with RO water and the wort will turn out just fine. If you want to achieve a certain water profile because of taste or authenticity you can add the salts to the wort in the boil kettle to achieve your target.

I see what you are proposing. I just went into Brun Water and selected the box "add hardness minerals to kettle". That looks like it predicts my mash ph up (with lime addition to mash) into a more desirable place. I cant believe I havent tried this option sooner. I am however having issues with Brun Water running properly in open office. I used to have office starter, but recently lost it. I'm going to look at the brewing software thread and see if there are issues with how the spread sheet runs with open office. I have the newest addition of Brun Water, but it does't seem to work at all with open office. Thanks

 

[Hermit]

I second the calcium reference. Yes, some elements may fight each other but I always like to have sufficient calcium. I shoot for around 100 ppm because I seem to get a better hot break and clearer beer that way. You now have a 'recipe' for your water. If the beer turns out the way you like it, simply use it again.

 

[doug293cz]

I see what you are proposing. I just went into Brun Water and selected the box "add hardness minerals to kettle". That looks like it predicts my mash ph up (with lime addition to mash) into a more desirable place. I cant believe I havent tried this option sooner. I am however having issues with Brun Water running properly in open office. I used to have office starter, but recently lost it. I'm going to look at the brewing software thread and see if there are issues with how the spread sheet runs with open office. I have the newest addition of Brun Water, but it does't seem to work at all with open office. Thanks

You might want to try LibreOffice instead of OpenOffice. I have read that LO Calc has better compatibility with Excel than does OO Calc. I run BrunWater under LibreOffice, with no apparent issues.

Brew on

 

[DownHillonWater]

I second the calcium reference. Yes, some elements may fight each other but I always like to have sufficient calcium. I shoot for around 100 ppm because I seem to get a better hot break and clearer beer that way.

I've recently upped my calcium levels to around 100 ppm (from ~50) for exactly the same reason. Seems like my chilled wort settles very quickly now. I've not been completely convinced its caused by the calcium, but your post is starting to add to my confidence. Do others agree?

 

[cire]

I've recently upped my calcium levels to around 100 ppm (from ~50) for exactly the same reason. Seems like my chilled wort settles very quickly now. I've not been completely convinced its caused by the calcium, but your post is starting to add to my confidence. Do others agree?

Absolutely, unless your objective is an original and authentic Pilsner.
Calcium is essential if you don't wish to filter or lager your beer at very cold temperature for a couple of months or more. In the mash it protects the essential enzymes, deposit oxalates that could otherwise cause gushing, aid the production of free amino nitrogen (FAN) which is essential for fermentation. It aids the formation of break and suitable pH for optimum performance by copper finings. It aids yeast flocculation and by this and other aspects it means I can ferment a beer inside one week which will self carbonate and drop bright and be drank from the end of the next.

 

[mabrungard]

I have OpenOffice on one of my old machines and Bru'n Water would not operate under that program. It runs well under LibreOffice and very well under Excel. The exception is that the program may not run very well under Excel for Mac.

 

[shetc]

I believe Openoffice is no longer actively supported. Libreoffice is very good and active.

 

[doug293cz]

I believe Openoffice is no longer actively supported. Libreoffice is very good and active.

I just checked on that, and OO is still supported, and being updated. Latest update was 11/18/18. That doesn't change the fact that BrunWater works with LibreOffice, but not so much with OO.

Brew on

 

[shetc]

Somebody needs to update the Wikipedia page

 

[shetc]

Ok I see it's moved to Apache. Never mind.