Constantly get hop harshness from NEIPA --Need Advice!

[MotoGP1000]

hey everyone,

writing this one out as I've been brewing a ton of NEIPAs lately and noticing that Im getting some considerable hop harshness from a lot of my brews. Im sure if its one particular hop that is throwing it or what but hoping for suggestions.

My grist is pretty easy
77% 2row
19% white wheat
3% flaked wheat

used a London Ale III yeast strain

my hops where:
Amarillo 1 oz for 10min
Citra 1oz for 5min
Citra 2oz hopstand at 170degrees (30min)
Galaxy 6oz hopstand 170degrees (30min)

dry hop:

Galaxy 2oz
Motueka 1oz (both for about 4days)


In all this brew fermented almost a week and admittedly im tasting a very "new" beer, but these types tend to be ready very quick.
In any case.... I've noticed a certain hop harshness that I cant seem to get rid of. Really... where I should be bursting with fruit and other hop characteristics, it doenst seem I do. And its because I think of the hop harshness.

thoughts? Its actually starting to turn me off to this style even though I love these beers

 

[OG-wan Kenobi]

How many gallons?

I am presuming 5


Your using a half pound of hops in the hop stand at 170 try it at 150
also you could cut back that hops stand addition and throw them in as dry hops (1/2)


I use more dry hops then kettle additions when I make these I keg at week 3 and serve week 4

 

[ccous]

Is the dry hop happening during active fermentation? And then are you packaging it up pretty quickly after fermentation is complete? I think this is a common way to end up with harsh hop and yeast bite in these beers. Personally I don’t like the active fermentation hopping, I wait until most yeast drops. Then wait a day or two, cold crash quickly and package. No more harsh bite, and no waiting for the beer to become drinkable.

 

[Dland]

Agree that the "hopstand" addition is likely much of the problem. I was getting "harshness" with much less hops than what you used in that step. Some of the worst of the bite will age out over time, for what you have already made.

 

[MotoGP1000]

How many gallons?

I am presuming 5


Your using a half pound of hops in the hop stand at 170 try it at 150
also you could cut back that hops stand addition and throw them in as dry hops (1/2)


I use more dry hops then kettle additions when I make these I keg at week 3 and serve week 4

yes, 5gallons. I was wondering if Im doing too much in hop quantity or if it just hits kind of a terminal limit.

so you think the 170degrees is making a difference here? I wanted to be sure that I pull enough from the hop and was concerned at a temperature too cool that it wouldn't

 

[MotoGP1000]

Is the dry hop happening during active fermentation? And then are you packaging it up pretty quickly after fermentation is complete? I think this is a common way to end up with harsh hop and yeast bite in these beers. Personally I don’t like the active fermentation hopping, I wait until most yeast drops. Then wait a day or two, cold crash quickly and package. No more harsh bite, and no waiting for the beer to become drinkable.

so theoretically after its been in a keg for a little bit, it should drop some of the that harshness. I did do a high krausen dry hop. I feel like Motueka specifically sets off a tangy/harsh flavor. idk if anyone is familiar but wondering if that could be it too

 

[SanPancho]

Check your kettle ph. Too high leads to harshness. And adding hops raises ph. Compounds the problem.

Also- remember to add in your chilling time to those late boil additions. 5 or 10 min in the boil plus however long it takes to get to 170ish.

 

[couchsending]

The more hops you add the longer you need to wait for these beers to be ready. The best commercial beers of this style are 21-30 days between brew day and package. The terrible ones are generally the ones brewed quickly.

Galaxy especially will create lingering harshness. It is incredibly high in polyphenols, moreso than any other hop.

What are you fermenting in?

Personally I’d switch the hop stand and dry hop amounts around. You get waaaaaay more aromatic and even flavor impact from larger dry hop amounts as opposed to whirlpool amounts. If you listen to the best of the best hoppy beer brewers talk they’ll tell you they’re moving more and more hops out of the WP and into the DH.

Beers with lots of Galaxy, Enigma, Vic Secret, all benefit from extended cold conditioning to get all the harsh polyphenols out of suspension. Like literally lagering them for a week while carbonating.

Keep all O2 pickup to the bare minimum and the beer won’t fade and will get better with time. Even the smallest amount of O2 ingress post dry hopping will crush hop aroma.

 

[MotoGP1000]

The more hops you add the longer you need to wait for these beers to be ready. The best commercial beers of this style are 21-30 days between brew day and package. The terrible ones are generally the ones brewed quickly.

Galaxy especially will create lingering harshness. It is incredibly high in polyphenols, moreso than any other hop.

What are you fermenting in?

Personally I’d switch the hop stand and dry hop amounts around. You get waaaaaay more aromatic and even flavor impact from larger dry hop amounts as opposed to whirlpool amounts. If you listen to the best of the best hoppy beer brewers talk they’ll tell you they’re moving more and more hops out of the WP and into the DH.

Beers with lots of Galaxy, Enigma, Vic Secret, all benefit from extended cold conditioning to get all the harsh polyphenols out of suspension. Like literally lagering them for a week while carbonating.

Keep all O2 pickup to the bare minimum and the beer won’t fade and will get better with time. Even the smallest amount of O2 ingress post dry hopping will crush hop aroma.

this is interesting. so again, after sitting in the keg for a while then it should be OK? I mean.. right now its def drinking like a green beer

 

[kevink]

Yes, it will definitely get better unless you were really careless about O2 and it oxidizes first. I had two or three harsh batches for whatever reason and they all got better. Maybe not as good as they could have been, but better than they were in the beginning.

 

[Jag75]

Hey motogp , nice name ! Was able to watch the last year moto gp was at Laguna . Hope to go to Texas and watch someday. Does your Neipa have a real juicy grapefruit/citrus smell and taste ? What kind of harshness ? I've never done one or even tried one. I just kegged mine last night and am curious to what it's supposed to taste like . It even has a slight alchoholy taste . The hops I used were Columbus, cascade , Amarillo, mosaic and simcoe . Have you done lots of Neipas?

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

this is interesting. so again, after sitting in the keg for a while then it should be OK? I mean.. right now its def drinking like a green beer

Well, it will definitely mellow, but then you'll lose, and waste, some of the desired hop intensity and aroma. A few years ago I brewed a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale clone. I nailed it. Everyone thought it was really good. Within a few months the nice hops (aroma and some of the flavor) were gone. Beer was still OK, but not the same.

If I missed in the prior posts, please forgive me, but are you trying for hop aroma or hop bitterness? I've had the cloudy NEIPA and, at least to me, they're really not that bitter, so maybe you're going for aroma?

 

[MotoGP1000]

Hey motogp , nice name ! Was able to watch the last year moto gp was at Laguna . Hope to go to Texas and watch someday. Does your Neipa have a real juicy grapefruit/citrus smell and taste ? What kind of harshness ? I've never done one or even tried one. I just kegged mine last night and am curious to what it's supposed to taste like . It even has a slight alchoholy taste . The hops I used were Columbus, cascade , Amarillo, mosaic and simcoe . Have you done lots of Neipas?

It is juicy but i get that hop harshness thats like chewing a hop. Ive brewered quite a few now and they all tuen out lretty similar. Not sure what the deal is. Someone recommended lowering my hopstand temp. Maybe ill give that suggestion a shot

 

[MotoGP1000]

Well, it will definitely mellow, but then you'll lose, and waste, some of the desired hop intensity and aroma. A few years ago I brewed a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale clone. I nailed it. Everyone thought it was really good. Within a few months the nice hops (aroma and some of the flavor) were gone. Beer was still OK, but not the same.

If I missed in the prior posts, please forgive me, but are you trying for hop aroma or hop bitterness? I've had the cloudy NEIPA and, at least to me, they're really not that bitter, so maybe you're going for aroma?

Right. Aroma and flavor. Its like the hop harshness is overpowering the rest of the hop characters

 

[MotoGP1000]

To be clear ive only semi nailed this once with a 100% citra hop bill. It was great to the point of almost having a mary jane smell belive it or not which i loved. Absolutely no clue what i did differently. Most of my brews are relatively similar. I can only think my hopstand temp isn’t consistent and is brining out different qualities of the hop?

 

[couchsending]

To be clear ive only semi nailed this once with a 100% citra hop bill. It was great to the point of almost having a mary jane smell belive it or not which i loved. Absolutely no clue what i did differently. Most of my brews are relatively similar. I can only think my hopstand temp isn’t consistent and is brining out different qualities of the hop?

Chances are more likely that they were just a different crop of Citra grown on a different farm, processes at a different facility, handled in a different way, etc.

Unless you’re literally comparing the same exact large bag of hops across two or three different beers it’s really hard to compare hoppy beers brews with hops you get from different suppliers or even from the same supplier at a different time of year.

 

[mashpaddled]

What is your water profile? Water plays a large role in these beers.

 

[couchsending]

It is juicy but i get that hop harshness thats like chewing a hop. Ive brewered quite a few now and they all tuen out lretty similar. Not sure what the deal is. Someone recommended lowering my hopstand temp. Maybe ill give that suggestion a shot

The hop harshness is because you literally are chewing on hops. There’s so much harsh polyphneol content still in suspension because you’re not doing the things required to get it out of suspension.

I’m still amazed how many people think these beers need to be raw/harsh and drank young. The best version of this style are soft and aromatic yet incredibly smooth and disappear mid pallet, leaving you with zero harsh or acidic notes at the back of your throat.

It’s a fine line between trying to keep the positive hop attributes in suspension and leave he negative ones out. I only add a very small amount of hops at the very tail end of fermentation (like 1/5 the total DH amount max) then soft crash the beer after D-rest for a few days to pull as much yeast as possible. Then add dry hops at slightly cooler temps. The beers are often lagered or at least force carbed at rather cold temps to drop as much of the excess polyphenol content as possible. Beer is still craY aromatic and “juicy” but a pleasure to drink. The goal is virtually no residual aftertaste or bitterness at the back of the pallet. Just pleasant teeth coating hop oil goodness.

 

[MotoGP1000]

The hop harshness is because you literally are chewing on hops. There’s so much harsh polyphneol content still in suspension because you’re not doing the things required to get it out of suspension.

I’m still amazed how many people think these beers need to be raw/harsh and drank young. The best version of this style are soft and aromatic yet incredibly smooth and disappear mid pallet, leaving you with zero harsh or acidic notes at the back of your throat.

It’s a fine line between trying to keep the positive hop attributes in suspension and leave he negative ones out. I only add a very small amount of hops at the very tail end of fermentation (like 1/5 the total DH amount max) then soft crash the beer after D-rest for a few days to pull as much yeast as possible. Then add dry hops at slightly cooler temps. The beers are often lagered or at least force carbed at rather cold temps to drop as much of the excess polyphenol content as possible. Beer is still craY aromatic and “juicy” but a pleasure to drink. The goal is virtually no residual aftertaste or bitterness at the back of the pallet. Just pleasant teeth coating hop oil goodness.

So i do force carbing all the time now. And im still getting that harshness. Im still not sure about water chemistry but i use a deersrk spring water. My last brew was dry hopped with Motueka, which on the nose and in the fermentor is very.. “tangy” and im wondering if thats why it was so bitter even Though my ibus should have been in the teens. Any other suggestions? Im def not hitting my fav brewery quality yet

 

[couchsending]

So i do force carbing all the time now. And im still getting that harshness. Im still not sure about water chemistry but i use a deersrk spring water. My last brew was dry hopped with Motueka, which on the nose and in the fermentor is very.. “tangy” and im wondering if thats why it was so bitter even Though my ibus should have been in the teens. Any other suggestions? Im def not hitting my fav brewery quality yet

Your favorite brewery is most likely very sure about their water chemistry and pH. It’s rather important, especially for hoppy beers.

 

[Bobcatbrewing42]

hey everyone,

writing this one out as I've been brewing a ton of NEIPAs lately and noticing that Im getting some considerable hop harshness from a lot of my brews. Im sure if its one particular hop that is throwing it or what but hoping for suggestions.

My grist is pretty easy
77% 2row
19% white wheat
3% flaked wheat

used a London Ale III yeast strain

my hops where:
Amarillo 1 oz for 10min
Citra 1oz for 5min
Citra 2oz hopstand at 170degrees (30min)
Galaxy 6oz hopstand 170degrees (30min)

dry hop:

Galaxy 2oz
Motueka 1oz (both for about 4days)


In all this brew fermented almost a week and admittedly im tasting a very "new" beer, but these types tend to be ready very quick.
In any case.... I've noticed a certain hop harshness that I cant seem to get rid of. Really... where I should be bursting with fruit and other hop characteristics, it doenst seem I do. And its because I think of the hop harshness.

thoughts? Its actually starting to turn me off to this style even though I love these beers