Consistently disappointed with hop aroma

[BassBabiesBeer]

It's got a nice carb on it now....tasting it...it's a nice danky with some fruity...No aroma...Would have thought the citra/el dorado fruitiness would come through a lot more considering large whirlpool and dry hop.

Any detection of DMS? you've got a modest amount of Pilsner malt in there... 90 min boils are safer. The "corn" can kill the aroma.

My HBS owner mentioned some Pilsner malts are fine these days, but I do 75 min boils minimum just because of my system.

 

[balrog]

All you need is something so that when the beer contracts...more than the volume of beer

While the beer will shrink during chilling a little, the volume that the gas in headspace contracts is significantly more. Carry on.

 

[MrEggSandwich]

I hate to say it, but for a NEIPA, it looks oxidized. Maybe the Pearl is contributing, but it just doesn't look right.

If it's oxidized, then I give up. I don't do secondarys, dry hop in primary, and Co2 closed transfer.

 

[MrEggSandwich]

Any detection of DMS? you've got a modest amount of Pilsner malt in there... 90 min boils are safer. The "corn" can kill the aroma.

My HBS owner mentioned some Pilsner malts are fine these days, but I do 75 min boils minimum just because of my system.

Thanks for the feedback....Will taste later this week and get back.

 

[Paulaner]

If it's oxidized, then I give up. I don't do secondarys, dry hop in primary, and Co2 closed transfer.

On the hot side you're oxidizing it, you're getting the herbstoffe from your hops and not the good hop flavor/bitterness. There's a sub-forum under All Grain & Partial Mash brewing that can fix this problem. If you have no interest in this rabbit hole great, and good luck with your beer.

 

[MrEggSandwich]

On the hot side you're oxidizing it, you're getting the herbstoffe from your hops and not the good hop flavor/bitterness. There's a sub-forum under All Grain & Partial Mash brewing that can fix this problem. If you have no interest in this rabbit hole great, and good luck with your beer.

Thank you. Will check it out.

 

[couchsending]

On the hot side you're oxidizing it, you're getting the herbstoffe from your hops and not the good hop flavor/bitterness. There's a sub-forum under All Grain & Partial Mash brewing that can fix this problem. If you have no interest in this rabbit hole great, and good luck with your beer.

I’d be willing to bet very few great commercial hoppy beers that the OP has had was made using low O2 techniques on the hotside. The only breweries employing that in the US are the largest ones that have to ship their beer all over the US and have it sit on shelves forever. Sierra Nevada for sure, maybe Firestone.

Don’t get me wrong I practice as many low O2 techniques as possible for all beers but that’s not why the OP is having hop aroma issues and there’s no way that beer is oxidized, it’s lighting.

 

[MrEggSandwich]

Thanks for all the feedback everyone, it is truly appreciated. Don't mean to sound frustrated/unappreciative, but we all put tons of time (and $$$) into these beers, and it seems like there is always some sort of brewing boogeyman that I need to watch out for that will ruin my beer.

I will check out the hot-side oxidation as a possible issue. Will keep this thread going as the beer ages....We will see.

Again- Not expecting Heady Topper/Hill Farmstead here, but a touch of hop "clarity" would be nice. At this time, it tastes like a muddled mess to me. There is some dankness from the Apollo, but I really though the El Dorado/Citra would shine here.

That being said, I will drink it all.

 

[Paulaner]

I’d be willing to bet very few great commercial hoppy beers that the OP has had was made using low O2 techniques on the hotside. The only breweries employing that in the US are the largest ones that have to ship their beer all over the US and have it sit on shelves forever. Sierra Nevada for sure, maybe Firestone.

Don’t get me wrong I practice as many low O2 techniques as possible for all beers but that’s not why the OP is having hop aroma issues and there’s no way that beer is oxidized, it’s lighting.

That's some very bold statements based on anecdotal evidence. I am not looking to argue, but are we not all trying to help out in the pursuit of great beer? There is not one simple answer to fix this problem of low hop flavors. Like all beer, it's the sum of all the production, to rule out one part of the sum, probably isn't the most intelligent response anyone here can give, myself included. The great thing about the sub-forum I referenced is the focus on all the different aspects of brewing and not one particular item like it may be perceived by so many as.

 

[couchsending]

I’m pretty comfortable making those statements. I can tell you personally of two brewers/breweries that have won gold at GABF for their hoppy beers many times don’t employ any of the techniques you guys preach about.

They don’t condition their malt
They don’t underlet their mash
They don’t preboil their water
They don’t use any antioxidants

But of course your response would be their beer could be even better right? OP would probably be stoked to make beers near as good as those guys do. That’s all we’re trying to solve here.

I’ve learned a ton about brewing from the low O2 forums and site. It’s not that I don’t believe in it, it’s just that there are plenty of world class beers made that don’t do any of it, especially hoppy beers. Much lighter beers where malt needs to shine and there is nowhere for anything to hide, then sure it would be much more beneficial.

The issue I have with so many in the low O2 community is the arrogance. So many of you come off as the most arrogant people I’ve ever interacted with online across all sorts of forums.

 

[kevink]

Thanks for all the feedback everyone, it is truly appreciated. Don't mean to sound frustrated/unappreciative, but we all put tons of time (and $$$) into these beers, and it seems like there is always some sort of brewing boogeyman that I need to watch out for that will ruin my beer.

I will check out the hot-side oxidation as a possible issue. Will keep this thread going as the beer ages....We will see.

Again- Not expecting Heady Topper/Hill Farmstead here, but a touch of hop "clarity" would be nice. At this time, it tastes like a muddled mess to me. There is some dankness from the Apollo, but I really though the El Dorado/Citra would shine here.

That being said, I will drink it all.

There is absolutely no reason you should not expect aroma like Alchemist or Hill. Once you get it figured out, you will prefer your beer to almost anything.

 

[MrEggSandwich]

There is absolutely no reason you should not expect aroma like Alchemist or Hill. Once you get it figured out, you will prefer your beer to almost anything.

Thanks dude! It's just frustrating given the amount of time/$ invested in Cleaning/Sanitation, Hop storage, Fermentation temps, dry hopping, Water Chem/mash Ph, Closed transfers.....Scratching my head over here.

Have dried Cryo hops, sinking hop bags with shot glasses, cold crashing, not cold crashing.

 

[MrEggSandwich]

I’m pretty comfortable making those statements. I can tell you personally of two brewers/breweries that have won golf at GABF for their hoppy beers many times don’t employ any of the techniques you guys preach about.

They don’t condition their malt
They don’t underlet their mash
They don’t preboil their water
They don’t use any antioxidants

But of course your response would be their beer could be even better right? OP would probably be stoked to make beers near as good as those guys do. That’s all we’re trying to solve here.

I’ve learned a ton about brewing from the low O2 forums and site. It’s not that I don’t believe in it, it’s just that there are plenty of world class beers made that don’t do any of it, especially hoppy beers. Much lighter beers where malt needs to shine and there is nowhere for anything to hide, then sure it would be much more beneficial.

The issue I have with so many in the low O2 community is the arrogance. So many of you come off as the most arrogant people I’ve ever interacted with online across all sorts of forums.

Let's assume for a second that it is oxidation, and all my IPAs are a victim. Would it happen post boil? During whirpool?

 

[kevink]

Post fermentation

 

[isomerization]

Have you tried using different yeasts?

If so, are you getting the same lack of hop aroma (and possible darkening) with those yeasts?

For me at least, 1318 seems to be very generous in its ability to scavenge O2 post ferm (may not be what’s actually occurring).

 

[MrEggSandwich]

Have you tried using different yeasts?

If so, are you getting the same lack of hop aroma (and possible darkening) with those yeasts?

For me at least, 1318 seems to be very generous in its ability to scavenge O2 post ferm (may not be what’s actually occurring).

Yup. Last 3 IPAs:

Yeasts used:

-Omega DIPA (most recent)
-Imperial Joystick (Huge Dry Hop - 4+ oz El Dorado + 3+ oz Amarillo. Weighed down with shot glass.)
-OMEGA YEAST BRITISH ALE V OYL-011 (Compares to WY1318 (London Ale III)....For this brew I did two dry hop additions (1oz Citra Cryo hops at tail end of fermentation + 2 more oz of Citra Cryo + 6 days later. Then cold crashed and kegged.

I am baffled.

 

[isomerization]

Have you tried fermenting AND serving in the same corny keg? You can get a clear beer draught system for $40ish. Dry hop (no bag) and remove blow off with a few points left. Might help narrow down potential culprit as should be zero cold side oxidation potential.

 

[hopjuice_71]

Have you tried fermenting AND serving in the same corny keg? You can get a clear beer draught system for $40ish. Dry hop (no bag) and remove blow off with a few points left. Might help narrow down potential culprit as should be zero cold side oxidation potential.

This. Personally, I went down the LODO rabbit hole for while. The hot-side stuff definitely changed my malt-driven beers (not to my liking though), but had no impact on the hoppy beers. So, I ditched hot-side LODO but kept all the cold-side stuff. I moved to fermenting in kegs with floating dip tubes (with filter screen; total cost of ~$25 CAD), spunding and all that. Have even served beer from the fermenter keg. Works fantastic for excluding O2 on the cold side and was magic for my hoppy beers. What I tend to find now is that if my beer is lacking hop aroma I can usually point my finger at the quality of the hops.

 

[doug293cz]

This is not the place to discuss/debate Low Oxygen Brewing. There is a separate subforum for that. OP has been made aware of that subforum, so no more discussion here. Any future posts in this thread about LoDO will be deleted.

doug293cz
HBT Moderator

 

[MrEggSandwich]

1 Week in keg- Color is fine. It's not oxidized. Slightly hazy..No aroma.

 

[kevink]

Have you ever tried high protein grains in this style? That might be why it looks off to me. I like these beers with a little more stuff in suspension, and it's thought that a lot of the hop flavor and aroma bind to the proteins. I have tested this millions of times by restoring a beer's aroma and flavor by shaking the can if it's been sitting around for a while. When shaken and everything is back in suspension, every quality improves (mouthfeel, flavor, and aroma). I'm not saying this is your problem, but it may be contributing.

 

[MrEggSandwich]

Have you ever tried high protein grains in this style? That might be why it looks off to me. I like these beers with a little more stuff in suspension, and it's thought that a lot of the hop flavor and aroma bind to the proteins. I have tested this millions of times by restoring a beer's aroma and flavor by shaking the can if it's been sitting around for a while. When shaken and everything is back in suspension, every quality improves (mouthfeel, flavor, and aroma). I'm not saying this is your problem, but it may be contributing.

I have in the past, yes. Oats/Wheat......The most obvious place to start here is with the hops. I'll start there. Need a Ph meter as well.

 

[Parrothead1]

Technically

11-12 times at 30 psi gets you close to zero O2 I believe.

The best method is to fill the keg with sanitized water and push it all out with C02.

 

[couchsending]

The best method is to fill the keg with sanitized water and push it all out with C02.

Yup

But it’s never full completely, there’s space under the lids or O2...push a pint out, do 12 purges at 30 psi, then push the rest of the Star San out.

 

[kevink]

The way around that is to cut your gas dip tube so it doesn't hang down into the keg and use it as the air exit point. You need to hold the keg at an angle so it's the highest point while adding starsan to the other post until all air is purged. I usually do this step multiple times with some shaking/smacking of the keg to get the air bubbles to move to the area under the gas dip tube so that when more starsan is added to the other post, the air comes out. When you add more starsan and no air bubbles come out of the gas post, you're done.

After I fill my kegs, I still purge the headspace multiple times at 30 psi just to make sure I have done everything humanly possible.

Couchsending's way works too, though. I used to do it that way and I can't say that I have noticed an improvement in flavor or aroma, but I have never brewed the exact same batch, used both methods, and sampled them. These kinds of things are almost impossible to test. Anything to minimize O2, no matter how difficult it is, is worth it in my opinion.

 

[brewbama]

Fill the keg thru the out post with sanitizer with the PRV pulled. When it comes out the PRV it’s full. Push the sanitizer out with CO2. Turn it upside down and pull the PRV with the keg under pressure to get it all.

 

[kevink]

Fill the keg thru the out post with sanitizer with the PRV pulled. When it comes out the PRV it’s full. Push the sanitizer out with CO2. Turn it upside down and pull the PRV with the keg under pressure to get it all.

If the pressure relief valve hangs down a half inch inside the keg like they do in corneys, filling it until sanitizer comes out the prv will leave a huge air pocket under the lid.

For the same reason, turning the keg upside down and pulling the prv is going to leave a large amount of sanitizer in the keg.

Cutting the gas dipt tube is the way to go.

 

[italarican]

I might be nominating myself for dumbest question here, but I'm at a loss for solutions.

These hoppy aromas in commercial beers you're striving for... have you had one of these since you started noticing the problem in your homebrew? Are you detecting aroma from other things fine during all this troubleshooting?

 

[doug293cz]

If the pressure relief valve hangs down a half inch inside the keg like they do in corneys, filling it until sanitizer comes out the prv will leave a huge air pocket under the lid.

For the same reason, turning the keg upside down and pulling the prv is going to leave a large amount of sanitizer in the keg.

Cutting the gas dipt tube is the way to go.

Correct. The lid dead space is about 3 fl oz (I measured it.) So, if you fill with sanitizer until it shoots out the PRV, then you have 3 fl oz of air still in the keg. With a stock length dip tube, you will have less than 3 fl oz of sanitizer left in the bottom after completely pushing out the liquid, so turning upside down won't accomplish much. If you have shortened your dip tube to reduce trub pickup, then that's a different story.

Brew on

 

[day_trippr]

Ime a full length dip tube properly located in its well leaves a scant half teaspoon of sanitiser behind, so at worst that much air if one tops off with the keg inverted as I do. In practice a bit of rocking will get that last bit of air out as well...

Cheers

 

[kevink]

I shorted all of my gas dip tubes so they don't hang down at all. I push out the starsan and leave some pressure in the keg. I then invert the keg so the gas post is the lowest point and press the poppet in. The last little bit of starsan left in the keg squirts out. This works awesome at getting it all out, no matter how much you shortened your beer out dip tube.

 

[MrEggSandwich]

I might be nominating myself for dumbest question here, but I'm at a loss for solutions.

These hoppy aromas in commercial beers you're striving for... have you had one of these since you started noticing the problem in your homebrew? Are you detecting aroma from other things fine during all this troubleshooting?

Hi...Yes. I drink a lot of Carton/Kane/Cape May beers here in NJ.....Was drinking a Carton 077xx the other day- Tons of orange, mango, etc.....

I am getting nothing from my beer. Zero hop aroma/flavors. General bitterness, but no hop "clarity" or flavor.

Thinking I need to hit my LHBS to have someone taste it.

 

[couchsending]

If I was to guess I would say bagging the hops and introducing them after fermentation is the source of the O2 pickup and the reason for the drop off in aroma/flavor. Just the smallest amount of O2 at the wrong time and the hop impact is the first to go. I believe bagging the hops entraps more o2 than just throwing them in loose. Also I would recommend purging the headspace with Co2 if you are adding after fermentation is complete. You will get better flavor/aroma with dry hop additions after fermentation as long as you can keep the O2 at bay. It’s hard to make explosive hoppy beer in a carboy just due to O2 pickup.

You said you don’t have a pH meter right? Just using the calculators to estimate mash pH? I use Bru’n water and it’s rare that it’s correct. It’s never far off but if you’re a little high and then pH goes up during sparge you can end up with a slightly elevated pH in the kettle. I’d definitely recommend a pH meter. Especially with hoppy beers mash pH is important but pre and post boil pH are IMHO even more important. A highish pH in the kettle can really mess everything up and create “muddy”, unrefined flavors.

 

[BassBabiesBeer]

Hi...Yes. I drink a lot of Carton/Kane/Cape May beers here in NJ.....Was drinking a Carton 077xx the other day- Tons of orange, mango, etc.....

I am getting nothing from my beer. Zero hop aroma/flavors. General bitterness, but no hop "clarity" or flavor.

Thinking I need to hit my LHBS to have someone taste it.

Where are you in NJ? I'd be happy to try/trade beers and talk brewing.

 

[-CHRIS-]

Do you have the ability to spund? I have found that dry hopping a second time with a few points of gravity left on the SG and not allowing any of that CO2 out of solution drives the aroma through the roof.

If you can't pressure ferment the last few points, try throwing an ounce of galaxy in a bag in the serving keg and letting it sit for 3 days.

It is really hard to get a great nose AND fruit flavor in the same beer, I drink treehouse and trillium plus all the VT guys weekly and very few of them achieve it. Head Topper is not even in the top ten for amazing aroma and flavor IMO. It was category-defining and amazing 5 years ago...

Good luck!

Chris