Consistently disappointed with hop aroma

[kevink]

Have you ever tried high protein grains in this style? That might be why it looks off to me. I like these beers with a little more stuff in suspension, and it's thought that a lot of the hop flavor and aroma bind to the proteins. I have tested this millions of times by restoring a beer's aroma and flavor by shaking the can if it's been sitting around for a while. When shaken and everything is back in suspension, every quality improves (mouthfeel, flavor, and aroma). I'm not saying this is your problem, but it may be contributing.

 

[MrEggSandwich]

Have you ever tried high protein grains in this style? That might be why it looks off to me. I like these beers with a little more stuff in suspension, and it's thought that a lot of the hop flavor and aroma bind to the proteins. I have tested this millions of times by restoring a beer's aroma and flavor by shaking the can if it's been sitting around for a while. When shaken and everything is back in suspension, every quality improves (mouthfeel, flavor, and aroma). I'm not saying this is your problem, but it may be contributing.

I have in the past, yes. Oats/Wheat......The most obvious place to start here is with the hops. I'll start there. Need a Ph meter as well.

 

[Parrothead1]

Technically

11-12 times at 30 psi gets you close to zero O2 I believe.

The best method is to fill the keg with sanitized water and push it all out with C02.

 

[couchsending]

The best method is to fill the keg with sanitized water and push it all out with C02.

Yup

But it’s never full completely, there’s space under the lids or O2...push a pint out, do 12 purges at 30 psi, then push the rest of the Star San out.

 

[kevink]

The way around that is to cut your gas dip tube so it doesn't hang down into the keg and use it as the air exit point. You need to hold the keg at an angle so it's the highest point while adding starsan to the other post until all air is purged. I usually do this step multiple times with some shaking/smacking of the keg to get the air bubbles to move to the area under the gas dip tube so that when more starsan is added to the other post, the air comes out. When you add more starsan and no air bubbles come out of the gas post, you're done.

After I fill my kegs, I still purge the headspace multiple times at 30 psi just to make sure I have done everything humanly possible.

Couchsending's way works too, though. I used to do it that way and I can't say that I have noticed an improvement in flavor or aroma, but I have never brewed the exact same batch, used both methods, and sampled them. These kinds of things are almost impossible to test. Anything to minimize O2, no matter how difficult it is, is worth it in my opinion.

 

[brewbama]

Fill the keg thru the out post with sanitizer with the PRV pulled. When it comes out the PRV it’s full. Push the sanitizer out with CO2. Turn it upside down and pull the PRV with the keg under pressure to get it all.

 

[kevink]

Fill the keg thru the out post with sanitizer with the PRV pulled. When it comes out the PRV it’s full. Push the sanitizer out with CO2. Turn it upside down and pull the PRV with the keg under pressure to get it all.

If the pressure relief valve hangs down a half inch inside the keg like they do in corneys, filling it until sanitizer comes out the prv will leave a huge air pocket under the lid.

For the same reason, turning the keg upside down and pulling the prv is going to leave a large amount of sanitizer in the keg.

Cutting the gas dipt tube is the way to go.

 

[italarican]

I might be nominating myself for dumbest question here, but I'm at a loss for solutions.

These hoppy aromas in commercial beers you're striving for... have you had one of these since you started noticing the problem in your homebrew? Are you detecting aroma from other things fine during all this troubleshooting?

 

[doug293cz]

If the pressure relief valve hangs down a half inch inside the keg like they do in corneys, filling it until sanitizer comes out the prv will leave a huge air pocket under the lid.

For the same reason, turning the keg upside down and pulling the prv is going to leave a large amount of sanitizer in the keg.

Cutting the gas dipt tube is the way to go.

Correct. The lid dead space is about 3 fl oz (I measured it.) So, if you fill with sanitizer until it shoots out the PRV, then you have 3 fl oz of air still in the keg. With a stock length dip tube, you will have less than 3 fl oz of sanitizer left in the bottom after completely pushing out the liquid, so turning upside down won't accomplish much. If you have shortened your dip tube to reduce trub pickup, then that's a different story.

Brew on

 

[day_trippr]

Ime a full length dip tube properly located in its well leaves a scant half teaspoon of sanitiser behind, so at worst that much air if one tops off with the keg inverted as I do. In practice a bit of rocking will get that last bit of air out as well...

Cheers

 

[kevink]

I shorted all of my gas dip tubes so they don't hang down at all. I push out the starsan and leave some pressure in the keg. I then invert the keg so the gas post is the lowest point and press the poppet in. The last little bit of starsan left in the keg squirts out. This works awesome at getting it all out, no matter how much you shortened your beer out dip tube.

 

[MrEggSandwich]

I might be nominating myself for dumbest question here, but I'm at a loss for solutions.

These hoppy aromas in commercial beers you're striving for... have you had one of these since you started noticing the problem in your homebrew? Are you detecting aroma from other things fine during all this troubleshooting?

Hi...Yes. I drink a lot of Carton/Kane/Cape May beers here in NJ.....Was drinking a Carton 077xx the other day- Tons of orange, mango, etc.....

I am getting nothing from my beer. Zero hop aroma/flavors. General bitterness, but no hop "clarity" or flavor.

Thinking I need to hit my LHBS to have someone taste it.

 

[couchsending]

If I was to guess I would say bagging the hops and introducing them after fermentation is the source of the O2 pickup and the reason for the drop off in aroma/flavor. Just the smallest amount of O2 at the wrong time and the hop impact is the first to go. I believe bagging the hops entraps more o2 than just throwing them in loose. Also I would recommend purging the headspace with Co2 if you are adding after fermentation is complete. You will get better flavor/aroma with dry hop additions after fermentation as long as you can keep the O2 at bay. It’s hard to make explosive hoppy beer in a carboy just due to O2 pickup.

You said you don’t have a pH meter right? Just using the calculators to estimate mash pH? I use Bru’n water and it’s rare that it’s correct. It’s never far off but if you’re a little high and then pH goes up during sparge you can end up with a slightly elevated pH in the kettle. I’d definitely recommend a pH meter. Especially with hoppy beers mash pH is important but pre and post boil pH are IMHO even more important. A highish pH in the kettle can really mess everything up and create “muddy”, unrefined flavors.

 

[BassBabiesBeer]

Hi...Yes. I drink a lot of Carton/Kane/Cape May beers here in NJ.....Was drinking a Carton 077xx the other day- Tons of orange, mango, etc.....

I am getting nothing from my beer. Zero hop aroma/flavors. General bitterness, but no hop "clarity" or flavor.

Thinking I need to hit my LHBS to have someone taste it.

Where are you in NJ? I'd be happy to try/trade beers and talk brewing.

 

[-CHRIS-]

Do you have the ability to spund? I have found that dry hopping a second time with a few points of gravity left on the SG and not allowing any of that CO2 out of solution drives the aroma through the roof.

If you can't pressure ferment the last few points, try throwing an ounce of galaxy in a bag in the serving keg and letting it sit for 3 days.

It is really hard to get a great nose AND fruit flavor in the same beer, I drink treehouse and trillium plus all the VT guys weekly and very few of them achieve it. Head Topper is not even in the top ten for amazing aroma and flavor IMO. It was category-defining and amazing 5 years ago...

Good luck!

Chris