Concentrate

[roberto188]

Has anyone done an all fruit concentrate wine? In otherwords, there are tons of recipes that use apple, grape, peach etc frozen concentrates to make wine, but they all add white sugar to up the % ABV. I was looking at doing a frozen apple concentrate wine, but the cost of the concentrate is very little, so couldn't I just add more concentrate to up the % ABV instead of using sugar? What would the result be? Do you think it would be better or worse?

 

[Weaves]

You can add things like honey, juices, concentrates, agave nectar to add sugar content, although a lot more will be needed to up the abv and some (like agave can get a bit pricy). I'd say play around with it and see how much it takes

 

[DoctorCAD]

Raw fruit concentrates are pretty low in sugars, that's why recipes have you add sugar. Its easy and cheap...

 

[pumpkinman2012]

I agree with DoctorCAD, however, if you choose to use Honey, here is some info for you:

For most fruit wines, using honey is perfectly fine in terms of flavor, and by using honey to increase the ABV% and/or back sweetening, you're actually making a Melomel (fruit mead), I've made many gallons of Melomel using 4 different berries, and a few Cysers (apple mead) that everyone has really enjoyed.

There are so many varieties of honey available, I've always purchased my honey straight from the bee keepers, I highly recommend it, wildflower will work perfectly.
Due to honey being a blend of many complex sugars, it typically ferments slower than sugar; that's not an issue, just something to be aware of.

In your case, making an apple wine or hard cider, honey will give it a nice taste and mouthfeel, you could use table sugar made into a simple syrup using a 2 to 1 ratio, 2 cups sugar to one cup water, heat to a boil, let cool and add enough to reach your desired ABV%, ferment to dry, then use honey to back sweeten.

Remember this, no matter what you use to increase the ABV%, the more you increase it the "hotter" it will become, and in the case of an apple wine or hard cider, the apple is a delicate flavor that is easily over powered by the alcohol and will take much longer to age; I made an apple wine in 2012, I wanted the ABV% to be high... well, I got what I wished for and I'm just starting to be able to drink it.

I hope this helps.

 

[roberto188]

Remember this, no matter what you use to increase the ABV%, the more you increase it the "hotter" it will become, and in the case of an apple wine or hard cider, the apple is a delicate flavor that is easily over powered by the alcohol and will take much longer to age; I made an apple wine in 2012, I wanted the ABV% to be high... well, I got what I wished for and I'm just starting to be able to drink it.

Do you have a recommended ABV for apple wine that would be drinkable in a 6 months - year? I was going to go to 22.5 BRIX ( about 12.5% ABV). Some people think 10% is high for wine, so when you say you made one with high ABV, what was it exactly? Also, I can get apple concentrate for 1.18 a can. I bought 30 cans which will give me enough sugar for 5 gallons at my target ABV. No sugar, or honey added, just apple concentrate. Do you think this will provide MORE apple flavor?

 

[roberto188]

Raw fruit concentrates are pretty low in sugars, that's why recipes have you add sugar. Its easy and cheap...

Yes I understand, but at what cost? Fruits with intense flavor I see chaptalization as a cheaper way of making the wine while retaining good flavor (I did this with banana and peach wine and came out perfect), but for something not so intense like apple, wouldn't it benefit from just using more "apple sugar" as opposed to just white sugar?

 

[Yooper]

Do you have a recommended ABV for apple wine that would be drinkable in a 6 months - year? I was going to go to 22.5 BRIX ( about 12.5% ABV). Some people think 10% is high for wine, so when you say you made one with high ABV, what was it exactly? Also, I can get apple concentrate for 1.18 a can. I bought 30 cans which will give me enough sugar for 5 gallons at my target ABV. No sugar, or honey added, just apple concentrate. Do you think this will provide MORE apple flavor?

Wine really is generally more like 12% or higher. Fruit wines can be lower (as to not be 'hot' and drinkable earlier) but generally 12% is a good ABV since it helps the wine keep better and not spoil since that alcohol level makes it hard for microbes to grow.

Remember that one of reasons winemakers add sugar instead of more fruit is because fruit can be very high in acid. Apples from the store are generally not that acidic, but apples are high in malic acid which is very "biting" and not that enjoyable in large amounts. Once the sugar ferments out, the acids become much more prominent.

Wine is all about balance- the balance of tart, sweetness, tannin, alcohol, and body all play a part in what makes wine a "wine" vs alcoholic fruit juice.

 

[pumpkinman2012]

Roberto188,
If you start at 22.5 Brix it should bring you to 13.3 ABV%, I wouldn't go any higher than that, not only is apple a delicate flavor that can easily be over powered by the alcohol, you want to be able to drink it in 6 months.
I agree with Yooper "Apples are high in malic acid which is very "biting" and not that enjoyable in large amounts. Once the sugar ferments out, the acids become much more prominent" For this reason I highly recommend 71B-1122 yeast.

Scott Labs describes 71B-1122 as:

It (71B-1122) produces long-lived aromas that result from the synthesis of relatively stable esters and higher alcohols. Softens high acid musts by partially metabolizing malic acid.

You asked "Do you think this will provide MORE apple flavor?"

Yooper is 100% correct:

"Remember that one of reasons winemakers add sugar instead of more fruit is because fruit can be very high in acid.
Apples from the store are generally not that acidic, but apples are high in malic acid which is very "biting" and not that enjoyable in large amounts. Once the sugar ferments out, the acids become much more prominent.

Wine is all about balance- the balance of tart, sweetness, tannin, alcohol, and body all play a part in what makes wine a "wine" vs alcoholic fruit juice."

To give you an idea about how I'm making my hard cider instead of apple wine, the main difference is the ABV%.
I have three 6 gallon batches of hard cider clearing, I helped crush and press the fresh apple juice/cider, I didn't add any sugar prior to fermentation, the fresh pressed juice was naturally at 15 Brix which should give me an ABV of 8.2%, this should be ready to drink in 6 months or less.

All three batches fermented to dry (.990), I plan on back sweetening all three just enough to balance out any acidity, one will be made with a light addition of cinnamon and 2 other spices that I'll call "apple pie", the other 2 batches I may leave them as they are.

The yeast that I used was recommended by Scott Labs, they brought out well-balanced mouthfeel with floral and fruity aromas, and enhanced fruit for a fresh, fruit forward style.

I plan on making a good portion of the hard cider into sparkling cider. I plan on making the sparkling cider in Champagne bottles using Zac Browns Sparkling wine in 2 months method.

 

[roberto188]

Yooper: Good point on the malic acid and good point on the "balance" of wine. I'm certainly not trying to make alcohol juice.

Pumpinkman: Thanks for the additional input.

One thing about the malic acid though, is this is frozen juice concentrate I'm going to be using and my experience is that store bought apple juice and concentrate usually is made from sweet apples, not tart apples. The acid content in this juice has typically been low for me and I've actually had to ADD malic acid to get that "bite" back into the ciders I've made. This is why I think I may be able to substitute the white sugar for the extra apple juice concentrate. I don't think it's going to push the acid levels too high. What are your thoughts?

One side note: I have a wild yeast that I've cultivated from some organic apples about 3 months ago. I made a cider out of it and saved the slurry in a bottle in my fridge. The cider come out AMAZING! I've found that this wild yeast yields SOOOO much more apple flavor than any other cider yeast I've bought (I've used wild yeast 3 or 4 different times and every time I've gotten much more apple flavor than the cider yeasts I've bought). I'm going to pitch that first. I don't know if it will tolerate the 12.5% potential, but if it craps out after a few days I'll just rack, and then toss some other strain of wine yeast to finish it.

Now that I've written this, I see this is a mad experiment. Who the hell knows how this is going to turn out, but I'd like your additional thoughts. Thanks!

 

[DoctorCAD]

Yooper: Good point on the malic acid and good point on the "balance" of wine. I'm certainly not trying to make alcohol juice.

Pumpinkman: Thanks for the additional input.

One thing about the malic acid though, is this is frozen juice concentrate I'm going to be using and my experience is that store bought apple juice and concentrate usually is made from sweet apples, not tart apples. The acid content in this juice has typically been low for me and I've actually had to ADD malic acid to get that "bite" back into the ciders I've made. This is why I think I may be able to substitute the white sugar for the extra apple juice concentrate. I don't think it's going to push the acid levels too high. What are your thoughts?

One side note: I have a wild yeast that I've cultivated from some organic apples about 3 months ago. I made a cider out of it and saved the slurry in a bottle in my fridge. The cider come out AMAZING! I've found that this wild yeast yields SOOOO much more apple flavor than any other cider yeast I've bought (I've used wild yeast 3 or 4 different times and every time I've gotten much more apple flavor than the cider yeasts I've bought). I'm going to pitch that first. I don't know if it will tolerate the 12.5% potential, but if it craps out after a few days I'll just rack, and then toss some other strain of wine yeast to finish it.

Now that I've written this, I see this is a mad experiment. Who the hell knows how this is going to turn out, but I'd like your additional thoughts. Thanks!

My additional thoughts are...GO FOR IT!!!

 

[pumpkinman2012]

Very cool on the wild yeast!!!
You should contact White Labs to see if they are interested in it, I'd give it a try!