Cold crashing versus just kegging

[doodoobutter]

I see, so it just mixes, maybe a more concentrated co2 mixture towards the bottom, and less concentrated on top, instead of an impermeable blanket.

I was just thinking of the time my cylinder emptied into my chest freezer from a leak in a co2 line. I bent into the freezer to grab something and it felt like I took a breath of death lol. Cylinder empty...

 

[jbaysurfer]

For the sake of discussion, let's stipulate that CO2 introduced into an enclosed space "sinks". Do you believe that it forms a stable layer?

That would be the error - it doesn't. In short order the CO2 will have evenly distributed through the enclosed volume.

Which is why we're all not dead...

Cheers!

Damn it. I hate you for teaching me this. I usually coldcrash in the carboy with a stopper completely blocking the air hole, and I currently have two batches on tap that I cold crashed for a week with an S-Shaped airlock. How long do you think I have before I'm going to have oxidation off flavors?

 

[danhercules]

Crazy thought..........


I have the 3 piece bubbler. How bout filling a balloon with co2, and putting it over the bubbler. When the beer cold crashes, and sucks in thru the bubbler, it will be sucking in co2.


Am I crazy or might that just work?

 

[danhercules]

Outside of a laboratory, the fabled "CO2 blanket" is pretty much a myth.
Gas theory assures of us that - along with the survival of most life forms on this particular planet.



Cheers!

In a closed inviorment with no air movment, why cant the co2 stay at the bottom? After fermenting I have leaned in to smell my beer with the lid off, as you get closer you get hit with the co2. Seems to me there is a layer covering the beer.

I dont think you can compair it to the earth, there is wind and thermal rising, ect.

 

[jbaysurfer]

Crazy thought..........


I have the 3 piece bubbler. How bout filling a balloon with co2, and putting it over the bubbler. When the beer cold crashes, and sucks in thru the bubbler, it will be sucking in co2.


Am I crazy or might that just work?

Maybe? Intriguing!

 

[jbaysurfer]

In a closed inviorment with no air movment, why cant the co2 stay at the bottom? After fermenting I have leaned in to smell my beer with the lid off, as you get closer you get hit with the co2. Seems to me there is a layer covering the beer.

I dont think you can compair it to the earth, there is wind and thermal rising, ect.

This is a good point, but if the airlock is sucking air back through itself and into the carboy you do have air movement in there. It might only be a little bit per bubble, but the headspace in a carboy while fermenting isn't much. Disturbing the air probably wouldn't take much.

 

[danhercules]

I can see that. But the minimal amount of air only happens when cooling. Then once cool, there is no more movement.

I think I am gonna try the balloon deal.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[jbaysurfer]

^ I like the idea. Please get back to us and let us know how it works?

 

[day_trippr]

In a closed inviorment with no air movment, why cant the co2 stay at the bottom? After fermenting I have leaned in to smell my beer with the lid off, as you get closer you get hit with the co2. Seems to me there is a layer covering the beer.

I dont think you can compair it to the earth, there is wind and thermal rising, ect.

^That's why.

The kinetic theory of gas holds that - except under extreme (laboratory) conditions - the molecules are in constant, random, rapid motion.

Therefore, if you fill a vessel with one gas and introduce another, there will be a homogenous result in short order. No "wind" required...

Cheers!

 

[TAK]

This whole blanket or no blanket debate is silly.

There is no "air" molecule. Air is a mix of N2, O2, Ar, CO2, and other stuff. Add some CO2 from fermentation, and it's not like it's not going to mix with the rest to some degree.

 

[TAK]

^That's why.

The kinetic theory of gas holds that - except under extreme (laboratory) conditions - the molecules are in constant, random, rapid motion.

Therefore, if you fill a vessel with one gas and introduce another, there will be a homogenous result in short order. No "wind" required...

Cheers!

+1, thanks.

 

[day_trippr]

Damn it. I hate you for teaching me this. I usually coldcrash in the carboy with a stopper completely blocking the air hole, and I currently have two batches on tap that I cold crashed for a week with an S-Shaped airlock. How long do you think I have before I'm going to have oxidation off flavors?

I honestly have no idea - or that there is a significant risk to begin with.

On this planet, in general conditions, oxidation is temperature-moderated.
So it's possible that the short, cold exposure to boundary-layer oxygen (as opposed to purposefully bubbling oxygen) of an undisturbed batch of beer would be so minor as to be dismissible.

Beyond that I have nothing to go on. And my thoughts about the whole thing go more to the "What if it was simple to just eliminate as an issue in the first place?" rather than "I think I can taste oxidation and really need to fix this!"

[edit] Otoh...the solubility of gas into a liquid is generally inversely proportional to temperature, so the take-up of whatever amount of oxygen introduced during cold-crashing could be expected to be higher than the same volume of oxygen above warmer beer. Which opens up the whole thing again...

Cheers!

 

[doodoobutter]

I have another question about the blanket. Why are we warned to be careful of c02 leaks putting out our pilots and causing gas build up when it just mixes with the air? Are they giving us these warnings based on myths? I would love to save up this discussion to pull that outta my ass when someone tries to give that warning haha, atodaso.

 

[GCPHomebrew]

I cold crash then keg. I find it reduces sediment in the keg.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[GCPHomebrew]

It also carbs faster


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[grathan]

I ferment 2 weeks then keg. What sediment?

 

[SpeedYellow]

Crazy thought..........





I have the 3 piece bubbler. How bout filling a balloon with co2, and putting it over the bubbler. When the beer cold crashes, and sucks in thru the bubbler, it will be sucking in co2.





Am I crazy or might that just work?

That's actually quite genius. I'll totally consider that next time I crash cool, because it would certainly work.

 

[GCPHomebrew]

Primary 3 weeks Bry-97 66degrees. Icold crashed for a week. Added gelatin(yes Irish moss was in wort) for a week, secondaried 1day to room temp, dry hopped 4oz citra 3 days. There is 2 inches of trub/gelatin at the bottom of the Carboy. (Sorry for the reference to secondary clearing more). This will be my new technique for the next few brews to see if it's consistent. More trub in the secondary than was in the primary. FG 1.008. There is clear beer and there is "wow that's fricking clear beer"!!!! I will cold crash until tomorrow night and then keg. Kegging cold seems to increase carb rate and that means I can pull a beer sooner.. I'll update this week with photo of the clearness of the final thing.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[Gameface]

I cold crashed my last couple brews because I wanted to see if it helped me get clearer beer but it really didn't. I always use wirfloc and even with the cold crashing my brews are always have chill haze at least. I just haven't had good luck with clarity yet. I can always tell when a keg has two pints left because the beer will finally be clear, and then it kicks.

Anyway lifting a 10 gallon primary into the kegerator is tough which is why I am asking how many do it.

Where do you ferment? I ferment in a chest freezer, so cold crashing is as easy as pressing a few buttons.

 

[doodoobutter]

Where do you ferment? I ferment in a chest freezer, so cold crashing is as easy as pressing a few buttons.

I cold crash in a chest freezer also, same freezer my kegs are in. It's 40F so not exactly the ideal 32F cold crash. I only have one freezer, so it's a common ground.

I said earlier, if I ferment at 60 to 70F for a few weeks, then secondary and cold crash, I always have crystal clear beer, always (with irish moss).

Not everyone agrees with the secondary, in fact, everyone is moving away from it. I find it easier and more consistent to secondary and put the secondary right into cold crash. You end up with like 1mm (estimated) on the bottom of the fermenter. It's just clear beer from there with little effort.

 

[djonesax]

Where do you ferment? I ferment in a chest freezer, so cold crashing is as easy as pressing a few buttons.

I ferment at basement temp which right now are about 68. I was thinking about either building a fermentation chamber or getting another chest freezer for fermentation and crashing but dont really want another appliance in my house. I think I may take a step back for now and try the swamp method for controlling the fermentation temp, and still use the kegerator to cold crash. Its the extra custom 6" collar on the freezer that makes it hard to place the 10 gallon fermenter inside but I can do it. Its lifting it out without splashing that's impossible. For that I am going to try to gas transfer from the 60L speidel.

Thanks,

David

 

[orangehero]

I honestly have no idea - or that there is a significant risk to begin with.

On this planet, in general conditions, oxidation is temperature-moderated.
So it's possible that the short, cold exposure to boundary-layer oxygen (as opposed to purposefully bubbling oxygen) of an undisturbed batch of beer would be so minor as to be dismissible.

Beyond that I have nothing to go on. And my thoughts about the whole thing go more to the "What if it was simple to just eliminate as an issue in the first place?" rather than "I think I can taste oxidation and really need to fix this!"

[edit] Otoh...the solubility of gas into a liquid is generally inversely proportional to temperature, so the take-up of whatever amount of oxygen introduced during cold-crashing could be expected to be higher than the same volume of oxygen above warmer beer. Which opens up the whole thing again...

Cheers!

In the new BYO this exact question is addressed and Ahston Lewis (aka Mr. Wizard) writes that non actively fermenting yeast also absorbs oxygen and provides a measure of protection from oxidation (also why bottle conditioned beers have longer shelf-lives). He also mentions that there is risk of contamination with the suck-back and suggests using some sort of filter such a cotton plug.

 

[day_trippr]

My plan goes into action tomorrow.

I totally expect plenty of rocks thrown in my general vicinity...

Cheers! (stay tuned! )

 

[day_trippr]

Aaaaand here we go! Best as I can tell, the first CO2-powered cold-crash on HBT!

About a week ago I set one of my CO2 regs for just a hair above the lower stop - not even to the "zero" hash mark on the gauge - and left it like that, checking daily to see if it drifted. After a few days it got up to an indicated .5 psi and I dialed it back down to the original "below zero" mark where it stayed through to this afternoon.

The two carboy caps already had the gas posts for doing CO2 pushes between vessels, so all I needed to do was come up with a gas-tight connection to the balloons. A short piece of tubing kept the cap nipple from collapsing, a piece of blue tape around the balloon kept the worm clamp from tearing through...and the rest is history.

There's so little pressure involved that the balloons just stand there at attention but won't expand. I think they might be effective fuses should things go awry but I'm not inclined to prove it

Cheers!

 

[grathan]

Be neat to put a balloon on while its still fermenting.

 

[AnOldUR]

Replace your airlock with one of these during the last days of active fermentation (after there's no chance of blow-off) and no O2 can enter during cold crashing.

Fits 3,5,6 & 6.5 Gallon carboys and 500ml flasks. A breathable Silicone stopper that acts as both a stopper and an airlock. Unique design allows CO2 pressure to escape but keeps Oxygen and airborne contamination out.

 

[day_trippr]

Replace your airlock with one of these during the last days of active fermentation (after there's no chance of blow-off) and no O2 can enter during cold crashing.

I don't think you can pair "breathable" with "no O2 can enter"...

Cheers!

 

[AnOldUR]

I don't think you can pair "breathable" with "no O2 can enter"...

The check valve breathes out, but not in.

"Everybody knows that . . ." :cross:

 

[SpeedYellow]

Aaaaand here we go!...

Whoooa, methinks you made this way too complicated. Why not simply blow up a balloon with co2 (either from the tank or during fermentation), then stick the balloon onto the carboy right when you start cold crashng? Then remove in the morning when done, or just leave it.

 

[day_trippr]

Whoooa, methinks you made this way too complicated. Why not simply blow up a balloon with co2 (either from the tank or during fermentation), then stick the balloon onto the carboy right when you start cold crashng? Then remove in the morning when done, or just leave it.

"Incoming! Hit the dirt!!"

Complicated? Au contraire. This was actually the easiest way for me.

Both of my beer fridges are outfitted with CO2 drops for carbing kegs, fed by a dual-body regulator. And I already had the carboy caps rigged with the CO2 posts for pushing beer. All I needed was a way to plug the second hole in the carboy caps, which I was going to do with plastic dowels, but then it dawned on me the balloons would not only do that but provide visible indicators of what was going on - not to mention adding a degree of plasticity to the gas model at work.

The idea of filling balloons with CO2 and somehow attaching them to the fermenters has been proposed ad infinitum, but to do it neatly/sans waste from failed attempts, a valve would be in order. Then you just need a way to connect the other side of that valve to the fermenter and you're in bidness.

This was easier than that as I already had everything in place or on hand but the balloons.

Anyway...

In the wee hours of the morning before I hit the rack the beer had dropped from 68F to 42°F on the way to 34°F. I shut off the gas and when I checked upon awakening this morning the beer was at 36°F and the balloons were flat, so I turned on the gas again.

So things are progressing nicely, the hop pellet mush hit the bottom hard and is being pancaked by all the other little bits o' stuff dropping out. I'll be kegging these Sunday with a CO2 push before the Pats thrash the Raiders...

Cheers!