Clean VS Sanitized

[handwrought]

I've ben talking with my wife about clean vs sanitized. We both don't like to use sanitizers for anything. Just another chemical additive that isn't good for you. She recommended that I read Wild Fermentation By Sanor Katz. He is in the clean camp. She does quite a lot of fermenting, cheese, kambutcha, vegetables etc and doesn't use sanitizers. This is my first foray into beer making and I don't want to use sanitizer. Any pointers I should know about? All equipment will be vigorously washed then covered with a clean towel and allowed air dry. My first recipe is Columbus IPA using the recommended yeast.
Thanks!

 

[TheMadKing]

Cheese kambutcha and sourkraut all ferment using bacteria and yeast combined. If you don't mind sour beers go for it.

Phosphoric acid is the active ingredient in star san. It works by dropping the pH of water below 3.0 which is fatal to most bugs. Phosphoric acid is a common food additive especially in dairy products and cheeses to maintain shelf life. It is not harmful unless you drink the stuff directly or in large quantities over time. Using it in brewing you're talking about 1 oz, diluted into 5 gallons, then sprayed onto a surface and allowed to drip for a minute. In your finished beer, the level of phosphoric acid is less than a few parts per million.

All food is made of chemicals, the process of fermentation is a chemical process. The word "chemical" doesn't make something automatically bad for you.

You need to sanitize to make consistently good beer. You may get lucky from batch to batch, but chances are you'll have an infection eventually.

 

[hunter_le five]

I don't bother sanitizing equipment for Kombucha brewing.

I ABSOLUTELY sanitize all my post-boil equipment for beer brewing. It's very important, imho.

Look into StarSan. It's a safe, effective pH based sanitizer that is designed specifically for food and beverage applications.

 

[Hobo]

What do you intend to vigorously wash with? Soap, detergents? Aren't these also chemical additives? It's my understanding most typical soap type residue will have a unfavorable result when used in contact with brewing equipment.

 

[Gavin C]

Alcohol is a chemical. Consumption of it has been irrefutably linked to a variety of ailments running the gamut from the mild to life ending.

Water is a chemical. Don't inhale it in it's liquid form. Vapor is OK though.

Similarly phosphoric acid is a chemical sanitizer. Don't consume it neat. Dilute it appropraitely to effective and safe levels and you're good.

The same is true of iodophor and sodium hypochlorite should you decide to go that route.

Vigorous scrubbing is not recommended for plastics involved in brewing.

Best of luck.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

What do you intend to vigorously wash with? Soap, detergents? Aren't these also chemical additives? It's my understanding most typical soap type residue will have a unfavorable result when used in contact with brewing equipment.

Stop spreading your Lyes!

 

[slym2none]

Good luck with your infected beers!

 

[TexasDroughtBrewery]

Its simple really, your making beer not those other items. If you want your beer to not be infected use sanitizer, if you like infections then don't use sanitizer.

Not trying to be rude, just straight forward and honest b/c there isn't really too much grey area here.

 

[GNBrews]

Stop spreading your Lyes!

 

[handwrought]

Wow! Ok... I guess in the beginning of beer making they used Starsan to sanitize the barrel? I guess our industrial food production industry has infected home brew with fear tactics as spread by all you good folks.
So, I have ask, how many of you have brewed a batch without sanitizing?

 

[slym2none]

In the beginning of beer-making, most all beers were soured/infected.

 

[hunter_le five]

Wow! Ok... I guess in the beginning of beer making they used Starsan to sanitize the barrel? I guess our industrial food production industry has infected home brew with fear tactics as spread by all you good folks.
So, I have ask, how many of you have brewed a batch without sanitizing?

Wow! Ok... I'm sure you're the only person who's ever questioned this practice of sanitation. What an innovator you must be. Thanks for opening our eyes!

Yes, plenty of us have brewed without sanitizing. It's doable, but hardly advisable. The risk of infecting a batch is substantial, and often results in dumping all your time and effort down the drain, and wasted ingredients. Why take the chance?

What's wrong with safe food grade sanitizers? Can you answer that question without using the word "chemical" as if it were synonymous with "poison"?

 

[trentm]

I've ben talking with my wife about clean vs sanitized. We both don't like to use sanitizers for anything. Just another chemical additive that isn't good for you. She recommended that I read Wild Fermentation By Sanor Katz. He is in the clean camp. She does quite a lot of fermenting, cheese, kambutcha, vegetables etc and doesn't use sanitizers. This is my first foray into beer making and I don't want to use sanitizer. Any pointers I should know about? All equipment will be vigorously washed then covered with a clean towel and allowed air dry. My first recipe is Columbus IPA using the recommended yeast.
Thanks!

Good question. While sanitization has a legal definition regarding food production and water, it's working definition is: to reduce the number of microorganisms to a level that will not effect the desired outcome. Even a sanitized surface will still have a level of microbes present. Yeast fermentation of wort poses different issues compared to fermenting other foods. Wort is growth media that is favorable to numerous microbes including bacteria. Bacteria like Lactobacilli are ubiquitous in nature and have the capability of reproducing much faster than most yeasts. When fermenting most other food products (and sour beer) it is often Lactobacillus that is responsible for the heavy work. You may have noticed your wife's cheese is finished fermenting in ~24hrs. It may be possible to ferment beer without sanitizing your equipment but you would need to pitch a very large, healthy pitch of yeast in warmer than normal temperatures, so the yeast could get ahead of the bacteria. The problem is you can't make many (if any) good beers that way. If you are going with wild fermentation (very challenging) clean may be good enough. It's just not going to work well for you in "clean" beers (those fermented with yeast only).

Heat is very effective method of sanitization (better than chemical). For items that can't be heated, ethanol is a great sanitizer but expensive. While ethanol is a chemical (i guess), it's going to be in your beer anyway.

 

[Dirt_McGirt]

Wow! Ok... I guess in the beginning of beer making they used Starsan to sanitize the barrel? I guess our industrial food production industry has infected home brew with fear tactics as spread by all you good folks.
So, I have ask, how many of you have brewed a batch without sanitizing?

My guess would be extremely few. Most of us don't want to spend anwhere between $20-$60 on ingredients for a batch of beer as well as time and energy just so we can roll the dice on practices that are known to greatly increase the chances that said batch will become infected and flushed down the toilet.

You're free to undertake this how you like - by all means brew a few batches as a test case and post whatever the results are here. It'd be interesting to see.

 

[Psylocide]

 

[wmcc75]

Oh god noooooo........

...I breathed in the toxic frozen water vapor.

 

[wmcc75]

Sorry double post off the phone

 

[Iseneye]

I guess the OP doesn't need to be harangued. The answer to the question is the vast majority of homebrewers sanitize so can't answer your question. You try it and tell us how it goes. You could use boiling water as a start.

 

[steveoatley]

You could use boiling water as a start.

That is a great idea - pouring the boiling wort - 212F into a bucket - will kill any bugs in that bucket !

Go with the "no Chill" method.

pitch yeast following day


S

 

[Auger]

I have brewed without sanitizing (not intentionally). I actually thought I was sanitizing with Iodophor, and didn't realize that Iodophor loses its effectiveness after several hours. The batch I was using was several weeks old, so basically tinted water.

The beer ended up being infected. Luckily most of it was drank within 2-3 weeks of bottling and it wasn't noticeable. However, there were a few bottles put up on the shelf for a few months, and they all turned into gushers.

 

[Bilsch]

There are other sanitizers that could be viewed as more environmentally harmonious such as iodophor or vinegar/peroxide mix (peroxyacetic acid) but it's all in the eye of the beholder which would be more or less dangerous to human health. Plain old dilute bleach soln with a bit of vinegar in my mind isn't at all unhealthy to use. These basic chemicals have around kitchens for quite some time now and don't seem to be harmful to humans when used properly. Read the MSDS for dishwashing liquid or hand soap if you want a chemical list.

 

[user 4295]

I ferment in an old boot that I found on the side of the road and all my beers come out great! It's leather, so it's natural. No chemicals.

 

[handwrought]

I came here looking for honest answers to an honest question. I am new to home brewing and have an interest in not having to buy one more unnecessary product because "they" say I should. If some of you guys can't deal with that then please don't suggest that I am off my rocker, believe in chem trials and are trolling. Way to share info! Of all the posts only about 3 actually address what I was asking about. To those people I say thank you! The rest of you can jump on the chem trail...

 

[slym2none]

I think the collective "we" are saying that buying a sanitizer is not "unnecessary". "We" think it is very necessary. "We" are sharing our collective experience & wisdom - i.e., "information". You asked a question and "we" answered it - honestly. Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean it isn't right.

If you can't deal with that, maybe you shouldn't have started the thread.

*shrug*

 

[GuldTuborg]

I came here looking for honest answers to an honest question.

Really? Alcohol, in sufficient concentration, is a sanitizer. So is heat. Why are you down on "sanitizers" as a category? Surely you must realize this is something of an odd question, to say the least.

There's no rule that says you have to sanitize anything. But even hundreds of years ago, brewers did, using the tools available to them, because they found it made for better beer. So if you're really down on Star-San for some reason, use heat, use vodka, use iodine, or use something else where you can. Then get accustomed to drinking beer with a higher microbial diversity (read: wild yeast, lactobacillus, and other critters). Learn to drink beer quickly, risk bottle bombs, or keg. The beauty of homebrewing is it's all up to you.

 

[hunter_le five]

I came here looking for honest answers to an honest question. I am new to home brewing and have an interest in not having to buy one more unnecessary product because "they" say I should. If some of you guys can't deal with that then please don't suggest that I am off my rocker, believe in chem trials and are trolling. Way to share info! Of all the posts only about 3 actually address what I was asking about. To those people I say thank you! The rest of you can jump on the chem trail...

Really? It sounds more like you came here to argue.

Google search "homebrew infection". It's a common problem, particularly amongst newbies who think they can get by with lackadaisical sanitation practices.

And you still haven't answered my question.

 

[blizzard]

ok, ok. This is a friendly, but opinionated forum. Here's the deal. You can make beer without sanitizer, but most of us believe that it won't be any good. Therefore, many of us think it is not only safe, but necessary. The majority of us love experimentation, so feel free to prove us wrong. If you want to try this for yourself, I think you should:
-anything that can be sanitized with heat or alcohol, do so
-clean equipment well and rinse with pre-boiled water
-make a small batch you can drink through quickly
-use a lot of hops
-monitor bottles frequently to ensure you aren't making bottle bombs

I still think you'll make infected beer and maybe that's an acceptable outcome to you. But perhaps you'll also make a batch that you enjoy.

 

[helibrewer]

I will say this, the sanitizers we use in brewing are used throughout the food industry. I guarantee you that most of the food you eat has seen sanitized surfaces/equipment. The most benign sanitizer would be 70% ethanol. It's going to cost you but at least you understand the single ingredient involved.

It's all about controlling the process and good cleaning/sanitizing methods are part of that control.

I would not consider brewing without using both a caustic cleaner (4% NaOH), and a sanitizer (I use StarSan).

 

[TheCADJockey]

So, I have ask, how many of you have brewed a batch without sanitizing?

I did. My first batch, I cleaned brand new equipment with a cleaner (I thought was sanitizer) and it was okay. And my second batch, I cleaned with my cleaner (I thought was sanitizer) and ended up with 5 gallons of infected beer that gushed itself to death. That was a $40 batch that was wasted because I didn't know enough to buy a $15 sanitizer that ended up lasting me 2 years.

edit: I'm also an advocate of natural health. Get StarSan. Use it as directed. Nothing else to worry about.

 

[GuldTuborg]

Don't forget, kids: One brewer's infection is another's innoculation.


Don't judge.