Cider Guy thinking about a foray into Beer

[dallas996]

Hi Guys,

I see this all of the time the other way around over in the cider forum but now I am looking at trying my hand at beer (obviously its usually the other way around). Anyway, what you guys do is way more complicated in its base form than what we are doing so I have a few questions. First off, I have a majority of the necessary equipment (including kegging gear) with a few minor exceptions.

1. Is a 3 Gallon SS pot big enough to get started or do I need a whole 5 gallon pot with a burner setup for my first few tries?

2. Do I really NEED a chiller and a bucket? ( I have a 6.5 and 5 gal carboy)

3. I like traditional style pilsners the best, and I like Golden/Blonde Ales (love me a good Kolsch) I also figure these would be simpler for starting with? (I know, assumption is the mother...)

SO, Any suggestions for recipes, etc. I am ready to go shopping

Also, any of you dual brew types (cider and beer) I would appreciate compare/contrast info as well as lessons learned from one to the other, if that makes any sense.

 

[Calder]

You have a lot of research to do, but to answer your questions:

1 - you can use a 3 gallon pot. A 5 would be better, and can still be used on the stove. Best would be about 8 gallons and for that you would need a burner.

2 - I assume chiller is to cool the boiled wort. No you don't need one, but it helps. You want to cool the wort as quick as possible. Pot in sink with iced water. I assume bucket is for a swamp cooler. They work well. What you need to ensure is the temp doesn't get too high.

3 - pilsner is one of the hardest to make. I've never done a kolsh. I would think a pale ale would be one of the easiest to make.

 

[dkevinb]

Making beer is only as complicated as you want to make it. Extract brewing, with maybe some steeping grains, is about as complicated as making a box of macaroni and cheese. All grain brewing does get more complicated. I'd recommend doing a couple of batches of extract first.

The "standard" beer recipes and kits are for 5 gallon batches. Your 6.5 gallon carboy will work fine.

You can do full boils or partial boils (all of the wort or some of it), but even a partial boil for a 5 gallon batch is usually 2.5 or 3 gallons. With a 3 gallon kettle it will undoubtedly boil over. But there's nothing that says you have to do 5 gallon batches. It's very common to do 2.5 or even 1 gallon batches (I do all 3). I would recommend either getting a bigger kettle or doing smaller batches. Before you buy search for the several million threads here. I picked up an aluminum tamale steamer at Target for not much at all.

You don't need a burner for partial boil 5 gallon batches or full boil 2.5 gallon batches. I do both on my kitchen stove. You might even be able to do a full boil 5 gallon batch on the stove, but I think that's pushing it for most stoves.

You don't need a wort chiller. I use an ice water bath in the sink. A wort chiller would be the next thing for me to buy/make. It speeds things up a lot.

Pilsners are a type of lager, and lagers are harder than ales. They require a lot more time and a lot more careful temperature control. I recommend you start out doing ales. Given your preferences a blond ale would be perfect to start with. I'm going to do a 1 gallon all-extract blond this weekend that only requires a 15-minute boil.

Compare and contrast: I do extract beer brewing and I've only done 2 batches of cider, but I find the whole process virtually identical, except for the boiling the wort part. You also don't back-sweeten beer, and it's all "sparkling". Don't put anything in the beer to kill the yeast. It doesn't have to be pasteurized. And you should use brown bottles if you bottle.

 

[dallas996]

so is there a big difference between a partial boil and a full boil in your end product in general or is it dependent on the style of beer? Is there a saturation level issue or anything?

I definitely plan to start simple; eventually I want to be able to brew Helles style (my favorite- being primarily German-Irish, go figure But I am a firm believer in starting simple and learning and advancing as I go, which is great since I do like golden style ales as a regular drinking beer.

 

[dkevinb]

so is there a big difference between a partial boil and a full boil in your end product in general or is it dependent on the style of beer? Is there a saturation level issue or anything?

I definitely plan to start simple; eventually I want to be able to brew Helles style (my favorite- being primarily German-Irish, go figure But I am a firm believer in starting simple and learning and advancing as I go, which is great since I do like golden style ales as a regular drinking beer.

I don't want to start religious arguments here, but I do both full 2.5 gallon boils and partial 5 gallon boils (same amount of wort in the boil). It tastes pretty close to me. There is a difference in hop utilization, but I'm not experienced enough to even describe the difference to you. Besides which every batch of hops you buy will vary in bitterness. You can also get variations in color, if you care. With extract you can add part of the extract later in the boil to keep the color lighter.

 

[dallas996]

Right on, sounds like I have a good place to start. Thanks for your time and info!

 

[Devilsnight]

With what you have, It might make sense to experiment with 2.5 gallon batches. You wouldn't really have to spend any money, maybe a 3 gallon bucket or carboy to ferment in and bottling supplies (no idea how cider is usually packaged) With the prepackaged 5gal ingredient kits you can just split everything in two and brew twice. I've mentioned it before but, the first few times I brewed I didn't make good beer. I'm glad i didn't start on 5 gallon batches! Most people seem to have better luck than me though.

Re-read... see you keg so, wouldn't need any bottling stuff. Should be pretty straight forward then!

 

[dkevinb]

One thing I forgot to mention is that it is important to keep your beer mostly in the dark. Light, particularly sunlight and flourescent lights, can skunk it by interacting with the hops. If you use a glass carboy to ferment you want to keep it someplace dark or cover it with something. I'm not sure if this is SOP in the cider world since it usually doesn't contain hops.

 

[joyceman]

A Kolsch is pretty easy. For a partial boil use 7lbs of pils malt extract and 1-2 ounces of noble hops for 60 to get IBUs in the 20s and maybe an once of nobles to finish (say 15 ot 10 mins). Use wpl 029. and try to keep in on the cool side for fermentation. I like to psuedo lager in my garage at around 50 this time of year.

Maybe steep some munich or vienna (if they steep, been a while since i did extract).

Heres a link to a the instructions from a basic kit to give you an idea... http://www.brewersbestkits.com/pdf/1015 2013 Kolsch Recipe.pdf

 

[dallas996]

One thing I forgot to mention is that it is important to keep your beer mostly in the dark. Light, particularly sunlight and flourescent lights, can skunk it by interacting with the hops. If you use a glass carboy to ferment you want to keep it someplace dark or cover it with something. I'm not sure if this is SOP in the cider world since it usually doesn't contain hops.

Yeah same in the cider world, keep it out of the dark, it can get "light-struck" which can produce off flavors. I wrap mine in a heavy blanket most of the time, my garage floor is usually in the low 50s so it tends to keep my ciders fermenting in the low 60s.

 

[dallas996]

A Kolsch is pretty easy. For a partial boil use 7lbs of pils malt extract and 1-2 ounces of noble hops for 60 to get IBUs in the 20s and maybe an once of nobles to finish (say 15 ot 10 mins). Use wpl 029. and try to keep in on the cool side for fermentation. I like to psuedo lager in my garage at around 50 this time of year.

Maybe steep some munich or vienna (if they steep, been a while since i did extract).

Heres a link to a the instructions from a basic kit to give you an idea... http://www.brewersbestkits.com/pdf/1015 2013 Kolsch Recipe.pdf

That is right in line with what I have been thinking for a recipe; pilsner extract, munich grain and saaz or hallertau hops and kolsch yeast. Thanks for the confirmation.

Also a 90 minute boil because of the pilsner extract correct?

 

[JimRausch]

There's some debate about the need for a 90 minute boil with pilsner malt in an all-grain setup to blow off DMS. But no need with pilsner extract. Afterall it's already preboiled.
Also, there's a little crystal sugar in Munich malt, but mostly unconverted starch(plus enzymes to convert it to sugar), so you do want to hold it at mashing temps.(145-158) for probably 1/2 hour or more so it can convert that starch to sugar. Otherwise you might get a starchy, cloudy wort.

 

[dallas996]

There's some debate about the need for a 90 minute boil with pilsner malt in an all-grain setup to blow off DMS. But no need with pilsner extract. Afterall it's already preboiled.
Also, there's a little crystal sugar in Munich malt, but mostly unconverted starch(plus enzymes to convert it to sugar), so you do want to hold it at mashing temps.(145-158) for probably 1/2 hour or more so it can convert that starch to sugar. Otherwise you might get a starchy, cloudy wort.

Thanks for the advice! MY LHBS guy set me straight on that today too!

So at this point I think I have my recipe;

Steeping 30-45 minutes
1lb of Vienna malt
.5lb of german wheat malt

60 min boil
6lbs of Pilsen LME
1lb of Pilsen DME

2 oz of Saaz hops for 60min

I was able to pick up a 32 quart pot so I able to do a full boil; should I just do a 5 gallon boil and top it off with water after its in the carboy or is there a formula for rate of departure? I am also at high altitude in a very arid climate, so that would come into play I would think (but I may be over thinking it).

 

[JimRausch]

Everyone's boiloff rate varies, even between batches. Me, at sealevel in a cold climate using a propane burner in my garage, tend to boiloff about 1 gallon in an hour. You could estimate your rate by 1st trying plain water for an hour. Necessary? Eh.......
General rule of thumb for an extract or partial mash batch is to boil as large a batch as you can manage, then top off with water to make your intended volume into your fermenter. By the way, I like how your recipe evolved. It looks good. One suggestion would be to save some of the Saaz to add at 20 minutes for flavor. All the hops in at 60 will give you bitterness, but almost no flavor.
Good luck!

 

[joyceman]

I agree with Jim on the saaz. I like a late addition in my Kolsch.

Last point is you might want to consider adding a portion of your LME late in the boil. Extract brews with all the extract added at the beginning of the boil can tend to be darker than expected and a Kolsch should have a nice light gold color.

 

[dkevinb]

Last point is you might want to consider adding a portion of your LME late in the boil. Extract brews with all the extract added at the beginning of the boil can tend to be darker than expected and a Kolsch should have a nice light gold color.

Good point. As a first cut you might want to add the DME and half the LME at the start of the boil, then the rest of the LME with 15 minutes left. You want some malt in the water, i.e., don't just boil hops by themselves.

 

[Calder]

Steeping 30-45 minutes
1lb of Vienna malt
.5lb of german wheat malt

60 min boil
6lbs of Pilsen LME
1lb of Pilsen DME

Both those grains require mashing, not steeping. Fortunatly they have sufficient enzymes to convert between them, so there is no need to add any base malt.

How do you mash? It is similar to steeping, but with less water and more controlled. Heat 2 quarts (= 1.3 quarts/pound) to 160 f, add the grains. This will drop the temp to 150 f. You want the temp to be between 145 and 160, with lower temps creating more fermentable sugars. Hold temp for 30 minutes. Remove grains. To get more sugars, you can steep the grains or rinse with 170 f water, volume is not critical. Then proceed to brew.

 

[Doctor_M]

A bit off topic but cider can get light struck? I thought light struck was a beer thing as its a chemical reaction from uv light and isomerized hop acids?

 

[dallas996]

A bit off topic but cider can get light struck? I thought light struck was a beer thing as its a chemical reaction from uv light and isomerized hop acids?

It is perhaps not the correct technical terminology, but I know people toss it around as such and have experienced off flavors from "overexposure" to light. I personally have never had the issue, but I have also never afforded my cider the opportunity to find out.

 

[dallas996]

Everyone's boiloff rate varies, even between batches. Me, at sealevel in a cold climate using a propane burner in my garage, tend to boiloff about 1 gallon in an hour. You could estimate your rate by 1st trying plain water for an hour. Necessary? Eh.......
General rule of thumb for an extract or partial mash batch is to boil as large a batch as you can manage, then top off with water to make your intended volume into your fermenter. By the way, I like how your recipe evolved. It looks good. One suggestion would be to save some of the Saaz to add at 20 minutes for flavor. All the hops in at 60 will give you bitterness, but almost no flavor.
Good luck!

Right on, sounds good. I actually did pay some attention while doing my aluminum pot "break-in" boil. Looks like my boil off is somewhere around 1gal/hr as well. So we will see where we get on Saturday.

As for my recipe, its seems to be a bit of a "it takes a village" process! Everyone on this thread has been great and it got me to venture into the "grain room" at the LHBS. After tasting a few of the malts while choosing the Vienna, it totally dawned on me (like a huge lightbulb moment) why some cider guys totally get into Graffs. I was amazed at some of the flavors and thought about what kind of personality they could bring to my cider. So after I start to get comfy with this beer thing, that will be my next adventure!

Thanks for the advice on the hops; I was curious about that for a Kolsch style.

 

[dallas996]

Both those grains require mashing, not steeping. Fortunatly they have sufficient enzymes to convert between them, so there is no need to add any base malt.

How do you mash? It is similar to steeping, but with less water and more controlled. Heat 2 quarts (= 1.3 quarts/pound) to 160 f, add the grains. This will drop the temp to 150 f. You want the temp to be between 145 and 160, with lower temps creating more fermentable sugars. Hold temp for 30 minutes. Remove grains. To get more sugars, you can steep the grains or rinse with 170 f water, volume is not critical. Then proceed to brew.

Ok, so after the 2 quarts is mashed, then what? add it to my full boil for the 60 minutes or set aside and add it to the fermentor with everything else?

 

[Calder]

Ok, so after the 2 quarts is mashed, then what? add it to my full boil for the 60 minutes or set aside and add it to the fermentor with everything else?

Do this first. Then add water and extract to this and start the boil.

 

[dallas996]

Well, it is in the Carboy bubbling away. Everything pretty much went according to plan, although my O.G. was a touch higher than I thought it was going to be (1.055)- but that's really not a problem. Hopefully we'll get a nice balanced kolsch style beer to quaff in time for Easter when my sis and her family comes to visit!

Thanks for all of your help everyone!

 

[dallas996]

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