Cider Fermentation started with a bang! then just stopped

[Justin1983]

Hi everyone

New cider maker here.

I have a batch of cider that I started making last weekend. Its a mixture of Bramley and Royal Gala apples, and nothing else. I crushed and pressed myself. The juice tasted beautiful. I added 1 tablet and a half of campden right at the beginning to kill any possible bacteria. I waited 12 hours and then added a teaspon of pectic enzyme, aiming for a clearer appearance. I then waited another 12+ hours and finally added half a sachet of Mangrove Jacks yeast nutrient and a full sachet of Mangrove Jacks M02 cider yeast.

The following day I noticed some slow action happening in the airlock, a bubble every few minutes or so. Following day, a bubbling occurence every second or so, to a perfect rhythm.

Next morning, no action, completely stagnant.

Is this normal? Should I be worried.

Appreciate any insights

 

[mashdar]

My cider experience is limited. Why wait 24+ hours to pitch yeast? Aiming for some wild character?

By no action, do you mean in an airlock?

 

[Justin1983]

My cider experience is limited. Why wait 24+ hours to pitch yeast? Aiming for some wild character?

By no action, do you mean in an airlock?

Hi thanks for your reply. From what I've read online, you should wait 24 hours after adding the campden, to allow the campden to wear off otherwise it will kill the yeast that I add.

By no action, yes, no bubbling in the airlock.

 

[mashdar]

Ah, I missed the campden. Poor reading skills on my part.

One day would be pretty fast. My ciders took a couple days, IIRC, but it's been a while.

Is it possible you have a small leak and gas is escaping? A small leak can still allow a little airlock activity when things are really active.

Are you using a bucket?

 

[Maylar]

Is it possible you have a small leak and gas is escaping? A small leak can still allow a little airlock activity when things are really active.

I agree.

 

[Chalkyt]

Obvious questions... what was the starting SG and what is the SG now? How big is the batch? With your own pressed juice you should initially expect a scungy foam to build up comprising pulp particles etc brought to the surface by C02 bubbles. Shine a torch into the cider and see if bubbles are rising which means that fermentation is taking place.

Your process seems O.K. except that if you added nutrient at the start the yeast is likely to go into a frenzy, gobble up the sugar quickly then settle down. The concern is that you might have super dosed with the nutrient as Mangrove Jacks nutrient (DAP) here in Oz is a 14g pack. Is that what you used? Typically with DAP about 1:4 ratio of DAP to yeast is more than enough to ensure fermentation even with nutrient poor apples. Fermentation requires about 40ppm of DAP which is something like 10ppm of YAN (Yeast Assimilable Nitrogen) nutrient for every 0.010 of fermentation. Apples typically have 50 - 100 ppm of YAN so don't really need any extra nutrient. Half of a 14g pack may have made it "party time".

I have had fermentation finish in less than a week under such circumstances, but not just a couple of days. As suggested above, make sure there are no airlock leaks then get back to us... lots of good advice around here once we know what is going on.

 

[Yooper]

Apple juice may not be high in sugar, so it's definitely possible it's done fermenting. It sounds like you didn't take any gravity readings? If you have the ability, you can do it now and see where it's at. If not, wait a few days and then take a look at it, and then taste test it. It could be done, but it might not be.

 

[Justin1983]

Ah, I missed the campden. Poor reading skills on my part.

One day would be pretty fast. My ciders took a couple days, IIRC, but it's been a while.

Is it possible you have a small leak and gas is escaping? A small leak can still allow a little airlock activity when things are really active.

Are you using a bucket?

I mean I guess its possible, but I'm really not seeing/hearing much activity in the mixture anyway. I took the lids off to give them a stir, hoping that would get things going again.

Yea i'm using 5liter buckets, with grommet and an airlock. I don't think they are 100% airtight to be honest, but pretty close.

 

[Justin1983]

Apple juice may not be high in sugar, so it's definitely possible it's done fermenting. It sounds like you didn't take any gravity readings? If you have the ability, you can do it now and see where it's at. If not, wait a few days and then take a look at it, and then taste test it. It could be done, but it might not be.

I did take readings, was around 1.054. Might give it another day and take another reading. Am I right in thinking the campden won't kill the sugar? just the original wild yeast?

 

[Justin1983]

Obvious questions... what was the starting SG and what is the SG now? How big is the batch? With your own pressed juice you should initially expect a scungy foam to build up comprising pulp particles etc brought to the surface by C02 bubbles. Shine a torch into the cider and see if bubbles are rising which means that fermentation is taking place.

Your process seems O.K. except that if you added nutrient at the start the yeast is likely to go into a frenzy, gobble up the sugar quickly then settle down. The concern is that you might have super dosed with the nutrient as Mangrove Jacks nutrient (DAP) here in Oz is a 14g pack. Is that what you used? Typically with DAP about 1:4 ratio of DAP to yeast is more than enough to ensure fermentation even with nutrient poor apples. Fermentation requires about 40ppm of DAP which is something like 10ppm of YAN (Yeast Assimilable Nitrogen) nutrient for every 0.010 of fermentation. Apples typically have 50 - 100 ppm of YAN so don't really need any extra nutrient. Half of a 14g pack may have made it "party time".

I have had fermentation finish in less than a week under such circumstances, but not just a couple of days. As suggested above, make sure there are no airlock leaks then get back to us... lots of good advice around here once we know what is going on.

what you are saying about the nutrient is interesting. And yes, I used half a 14g pack in each 5L bucket. I'm not seeing any scungy foam building on the surface which is really surprising me. Could the pectic enzyme or the Campden have something to do with it?

My SG was 1.054

I havent taken another reading yet but might do tomorrow as I don't want to open the lids too much. The liquid is very dormant, not much going on at all.

I'm using buckets with a grommet and airlock plugged into the grommet. I have noticed a little liquid, well more like a bit of moisture sprinkled out, around the base of the grommet, so I suspect its not 100% airtight, but should be fairly sealed. I was getting amazing bubbling only yesterday, and then nothing today.

 

[mashdar]

If there's a small leak, that would explain lack of airlock activity - even an inch of water pressure is pretty significant when it comes to slow CO2 flow.

It's normal to have a vigorous fermentation that slows down at the end. And a lower brix juice could be almost done in a day, depending on the yeast.

Are you going to prime + bottle?

 

[Zadkiel]

Do you have any silicon sealant lying around? run a bead around the base of the grommet to seal it to the bucket, and see if the airlock starts bubbling again. Harmless experiment as you can easily just pick the silicon back off if it doesn't work.

 

[Yooper]

I did take readings, was around 1.054. Might give it another day and take another reading. Am I right in thinking the campden won't kill the sugar? just the original wild yeast?

Campden is used to kill wild yeast and bacteria. Brewer's yeast and wine yeast are very tolerant of sulfites, that's why winemakers use them. Campden is also great at every other racking and at bottling- to help deter microbes you don't want in your wine/cider but also used as the sulfites bind to wine (well, some of it does, but we won't go into free S02, etc now), so that oxygen can't. In that way, it helps to prevent oxidant and is an important tool for winemakers (and brewers).

Your cider may stop as low as .990, so do give it more time but you can always check to ensure it's not stalled.

 

[Justin1983]

If there's a small leak, that would explain lack of airlock activity - even an inch of water pressure is pretty significant when it comes to slow CO2 flow.

It's normal to have a vigorous fermentation that slows down at the end. And a lower brix juice could be almost done in a day, depending on the yeast.

Are you going to prime + bottle?

Yea planning to prime n bottle. I'm going to take a reading tonight, and possibly add more yeast. Good idea?

 

[Justin1983]

Yea planning to prime n bottle. I'm going to take a reading tonight, and possibly add more yeast. Good idea?

 

[Justin1983]

Do you have any silicon sealant lying around? run a bead around the base of the grommet to seal it to the bucket, and see if the airlock starts bubbling again. Harmless experiment as you can easily just pick the silicon back off if it doesn't work.

Good idea, use some putty and no change. I'm thinking I should add more yeast?

 

[Yooper]

Yea planning to prime n bottle. I'm going to take a reading tonight, and possibly add more yeast. Good idea?

No. You don’t need more yeast- at least not unless it’s truly stuck. And if it’s stuck, it is likely not be due to inadequate yeast.

 

[Justin1983]

Hi all, I've measured gravity and it's reading 1.006 for both batches, very fast considering I pitched yeast on Saturday and Sunday night, basically 4 and 5 days from pitching. Should I be worried?

 

[Rish]

Should I be worried?

Nope, just give it time then check it again. I always wait at least 2 weeks from pitch and usually 4 before I do my first sg check. Once you get the same reading 3 days apart, you're good to package.

 

[Yooper]

Hi all, I've measured gravity and it's reading 1.006 for both batches, very fast considering I pitched yeast on Saturday and Sunday night, basically 4 and 5 days from pitching. Should I be worried?

Definitely not. It may stop at 1.004- 1.000 but I've had some batches go down to .990 at times. Usually, 1.000-1.004 or so though, depending on the apples I've used and the yeast strain. Don't worry- it will only go as low as it will. If there are lees (sediment), I'd rack now to a carboy, make sure there is no headspace, and give it about 21 days or so. And rack again if there are lots of lees, and consider packaging at that point. Apples sometimes will drop a lot of sediment, depending on how you crushed them.

 

[Chalkyt]

Sounds like we are all on the same page re not trusting the airlock to tell you how the fermentation is progressing. your SG 1.006 seems to have come up a bit fast but given the amount of nutrient used, it seems O.K. to me. I would rack to glass carboy(s) under airlock now and let things just follow their course.

Just to give you another approach, I do my initial ferment for a week or so in an open bucket... no lid, no airlock, just a loose lid or cloth to keep any nasties out. There are a couple of reasons for this... firstly, some exposure to O2 is desirable for the yeasts to get started, then as C02 gets going it carries pulp etc to the top of the cider and forms a physical foam together with a blanket of C02. I get obvious foam with my own pressed juice but not so much with bought juice (too filtered). For the first couple of days, I can look at what is happening and (hopefully) see the foam forming or initial sparkle on top of the cider as minute C02 bubbles reach the surface and burst.

The foam only lasts for a few days or a week, then it is time to rack off the gross lees into a carboy with an airlock to keep O2 out and let fermentation continue with a bubbling airlock. It can stay there as long as I like to clear and mature. As mentioned above, shining a torch into the cider makes the bubbles more obvious and reinforces that fermentation is taking place even when the airlock rate slows right down to one bubble every now and then.

There are sometimes some concerns about differentiating between primary (turbulent) and secondary fermentation SG. I think that Claude Jolicoeur puts it best "When the turbulent phase quiets down... this indicates the end of this phase. It is then possible to proceed to the first racking... There is no set point of transition between the turbulent phase and secondary phase...the moment of this racking would mark the beginning of the secondary phase." To me this says it all in that making cider is a continuous process, not step by step like making a cake.

So, just go with the flow and enjoy the journey. Your cider seems to be on the right track.

Cheers!

EDIT: Just read Yooper's post of a couple of minutes ago... Yep, great advice!

 

[Justin1983]

Definitely not. It may stop at 1.004- 1.000 but I've had some batches go down to .990 at times. Usually, 1.000-1.004 or so though, depending on the apples I've used and the yeast strain. Don't worry- it will only go as low as it will. If there are lees (sediment), I'd rack now to a carboy, make sure there is no headspace, and give it about 21 days or so. And rack again if there are lots of lees, and consider packaging at that point. Apples sometimes will drop a lot of sediment, depending on how you crushed them.

Thanks for this wonderful insight, good to know!

 

[Justin1983]

Sounds like we are all on the same page re not trusting the airlock to tell you how the fermentation is progressing. your SG 1.006 seems to have come up a bit fast but given the amount of nutrient used, it seems O.K. to me. I would rack to glass carboy(s) under airlock now and let things just follow their course.

Just to give you another approach, I do my initial ferment for a week or so in an open bucket... no lid, no airlock, just a loose lid or cloth to keep any nasties out. There are a couple of reasons for this... firstly, some exposure to O2 is desirable for the yeasts to get started, then as C02 gets going it carries pulp etc to the top of the cider and forms a physical foam together with a blanket of C02. I get obvious foam with my own pressed juice but not so much with bought juice (too filtered). For the first couple of days, I can look at what is happening and (hopefully) see the foam forming or initial sparkle on top of the cider as minute C02 bubbles reach the surface and burst.

The foam only lasts for a few days or a week, then it is time to rack off the gross lees into a carboy with an airlock to keep O2 out and let fermentation continue with a bubbling airlock. It can stay there as long as I like to clear and mature. As mentioned above, shining a torch into the cider makes the bubbles more obvious and reinforces that fermentation is taking place even when the airlock rate slows right down to one bubble every now and then.

There are sometimes some concerns about differentiating between primary (turbulent) and secondary fermentation SG. I think that Claude Jolicoeur puts it best "When the turbulent phase quiets down... this indicates the end of this phase. It is then possible to proceed to the first racking... There is no set point of transition between the turbulent phase and secondary phase...the moment of this racking would mark the beginning of the secondary phase." To me this says it all in that making cider is a continuous process, not step by step like making a cake.

So, just go with the flow and enjoy the journey. Your cider seems to be on the right track.

Cheers!

EDIT: Just read Yooper's post of a couple of minutes ago... Yep, great advice!

Thanks this is amazing insight. Just out of interest,as I don't have glass car boys, or any other vessels, is it ok to just leave them in the fermenting buckets with the airlock to mature further for a few weeks? Or is this a risk?

 

[Zadkiel]

If you went from 1.054 to 1.006 in 2 days with no visible airlock activity the whole time on a bucket then I'd say for sure you have a leak somewhere. Nothing you can really do about it now, but maybe once you're out of these buckets you can do some testing, if you have an air pump then you could put the bucket under a small amount of pressure and then use a spray bottle and some soapy water to check all the seals and work out where it is.

 

[Justin1983]

If you went from 1.054 to 1.006 in 2 days with no visible airlock activity the whole time on a bucket then I'd say for sure you have a leak somewhere. Nothing you can really do about it now, but maybe once you're out of these buckets you can do some testing, if you have an air pump then you could put the bucket under a small amount of pressure and then use a spray bottle and some soapy water to check all the seals and work out where it is.

thats a good shout, will try that

 

[Chalkyt]

You are in an interesting situation. Since the SG is now 1.006 and the yeast are still probably "going mad" with plenty of nutrients, I wouldn't be surprised if the SG was down to 1.004 in a couple of days. This would be about 7g/L of residual sugar which will ferment into about 2 volumes of C02, with the residual C02 from just fermented cider it might be a bit fizzier than I would like but below "bottle bomb" territory.

So, you have some choices. A couple more days exposed to O2 but with the existing C02 blanket on top of the cider probably won't cause any adverse oxidation, maybe the SG will be even lower than that by then. Bottling at SG 1.006 would work and you might dodge a bullet and end up with a somewhat fizzy dry cider (two gravity points of fermentation should produce one volume of C02 in a sealed bottle). Alternatively bottle now or in a day or so when the SG might be even lower and hot water pasteurise (roughly soaking the bottles for 10 minutes in 65C water). You might end up with a bit of fizz and a little sweetness. For example, SG 1.004 is 7g/l of residual sugar which is about the same as 1/4 tsp of sugar in a cup of coffee.

Ideally the cider should be racked into carboys (the airlocks seal better so you can leave the cider to finish and mature for as long as you like).

Sounds as though you have fast tracked your way into learning a lot in a short time.

Cheers!

 

[Justin1983]

You are in an interesting situation. Since the SG is now 1.006 and the yeast are still probably "going mad" with plenty of nutrients, I wouldn't be surprised if the SG was down to 1.004 in a couple of days. This would be about 7g/L of residual sugar which will ferment into about 2 volumes of C02, with the residual C02 from just fermented cider it might be a bit fizzier than I would like but below "bottle bomb" territory.

So, you have some choices. A couple more days exposed to O2 but with the existing C02 blanket on top of the cider probably won't cause any adverse oxidation, maybe the SG will be even lower than that by then. Bottling at SG 1.006 would work and you might dodge a bullet and end up with a somewhat fizzy dry cider (two gravity points of fermentation should produce one volume of C02 in a sealed bottle). Alternatively bottle now or in a day or so when the SG might be even lower and hot water pasteurise (roughly soaking the bottles for 10 minutes in 65C water). You might end up with a bit of fizz and a little sweetness. For example, SG 1.004 is 7g/l of residual sugar which is about the same as 1/4 tsp of sugar in a cup of coffee.

Ideally the cider should be racked into carboys (the airlocks seal better so you can leave the cider to finish and mature for as long as you like).

Sounds as though you have fast tracked your way into learning a lot in a short time.

Cheers!

Thanks I enjoyed reading this

Once I bottle, would you recommend adding a carbonation drop (sugar) or leave as is? I'm only asking because you talk about a bit of fizz, is that a naturally occuring fizz?