ErieShores
Well-Known Member
Non practicing Catholic here.
Didn't Jesus turn water into wine? Follow in his footsteps
Didn't Jesus turn water into wine? Follow in his footsteps
Christianity and home brewing
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I agree with you. If its done right. That's why I didn't say it couldn't be done , just my experiences with it weren't all that positive.
It is interesting that the bible not only says not to be "drunk" but it also talks about gluttony , overeating , and eating food that is not good for us. Yet churches and religious groups love to have their potluck dinners where many eat until they can barely move , and many church goers are overweight. I think they skip over the main lesson to be learned from scripture and that is all things " in moderation" , not that food or alcohol is wrong.
QuercusMax
Well-Known Member
Maybe look at this site? https://pintpipeandcrossclub.wordpress.com/2013/09/17/forming-your-own-pint-pipe-and-cross-club/
If C.S. Lewis's and J.R.R Tolkien's were in part the result of something like this, it can't be all bad!
If C.S. Lewis's and J.R.R Tolkien's were in part the result of something like this, it can't be all bad!
n240sxguy
Well-Known Member
That sounds like an awesome plan. I was talking to a buddy of mine last year about starting something like that. Once a month would be just right. Hard to do every week sometimes.
Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
Hi, since there has been some new activity on this thread after a quiet spell, I thought I would repost my previous post from a few months ago and give everyone a gentle reminder of the ground rules. Religious arguing, theological posts, etc will get this thread moved to the Debate Forum. Remember, whatever your theological position or point of view, lots of folks here will disagree with it, and that disagreement is not a conversation to be had in a homebrewing forum.
RevA
Well-Known Member
I'd like to hear people's take on this situation. I'm a Christian myself, and a good portion of my family would be considered Evangelical, so I'm used to the 'drinking is evil' attitude. I avoid drinking in situations where it would upset my relatives.
I know a guy who is an Evangelical Christian. He belongs to a non-denominational evangelical church that is pretty hard-core. Women only wear dresses - no pants allowed; Kids are home-schooled; yada yada....
He's been a very vocal anti-alcohol guy for years. I've had to listen to him preach about it. He's a nice guy, but it used to annoy the hell out of me. He's in a position where his preaching kind of impacts me a little in some situations. Personally, I don't care if you don't drink, but I don't want to get a lecture, or a comment when I'm drinking.
Recently, he's somehow been turned on to craft beer. I asked him how he can justify this after all the years of preaching about the evils of alcohol. His response is that it's OK to drink as long as he doesn't get a buzz. He only has 1 glass of beer. He likes Belgians, so I can't imagine 1 glass of a Quad isn't going to get you drunk, but whatever. Live and let live.
So 2 things have been bothering me:
I know a guy who is an Evangelical Christian. He belongs to a non-denominational evangelical church that is pretty hard-core. Women only wear dresses - no pants allowed; Kids are home-schooled; yada yada....
He's been a very vocal anti-alcohol guy for years. I've had to listen to him preach about it. He's a nice guy, but it used to annoy the hell out of me. He's in a position where his preaching kind of impacts me a little in some situations. Personally, I don't care if you don't drink, but I don't want to get a lecture, or a comment when I'm drinking.
Recently, he's somehow been turned on to craft beer. I asked him how he can justify this after all the years of preaching about the evils of alcohol. His response is that it's OK to drink as long as he doesn't get a buzz. He only has 1 glass of beer. He likes Belgians, so I can't imagine 1 glass of a Quad isn't going to get you drunk, but whatever. Live and let live.
So 2 things have been bothering me:
- I personally call bull**** on his whole argument. If your religious sect doesn't allow alcohol, then you shouldn't be drinking. Especially after all the years of preaching. If you want to drink a beer, just drink a beer. I don't needs an hour of justification and trying to make the rules fit your new lifestyle. Just say, I was wrong and move on with your life. Essentially, he's saying he's a good person because he only has 1 beer and I'm a bad person because I have more. Kinda pisses me off.
- More annoying, but funny, is that he's started giving me beer advice. He's even critiqued some of my beer. He told me my year-old Belgian Quad needed to age a little longer (Although he did say the color and head were dead-on
). I'm happy to give him a taste, and I appreciate the input, but don't get all 'Beer-Advocate' on me after you've been drinking for 15 minutes. That really pissed me off!
I'd like to hear people's take on this situation. I'm a Christian myself, and a good portion of my family would be considered Evangelical, so I'm used to the 'drinking is evil' attitude. I avoid drinking in situations where it would upset my relatives.
I know a guy who is an Evangelical Christian. He belongs to a non-denominational evangelical church that is pretty hard-core. Women only wear dresses - no pants allowed; Kids are home-schooled; yada yada....
He's been a very vocal anti-alcohol guy for years. I've had to listen to him preach about it. He's a nice guy, but it used to annoy the hell out of me. He's in a position where his preaching kind of impacts me a little in some situations. Personally, I don't care if you don't drink, but I don't want to get a lecture, or a comment when I'm drinking.
Recently, he's somehow been turned on to craft beer. I asked him how he can justify this after all the years of preaching about the evils of alcohol. His response is that it's OK to drink as long as he doesn't get a buzz. He only has 1 glass of beer. He likes Belgians, so I can't imagine 1 glass of a Quad isn't going to get you drunk, but whatever. Live and let live.
So 2 things have been bothering me:
Comments?
- I personally call bull**** on his whole argument. If your religious sect doesn't allow alcohol, then you shouldn't be drinking. Especially after all the years of preaching. If you want to drink a beer, just drink a beer. I don't needs an hour of justification and trying to make the rules fit your new lifestyle. Just say, I was wrong and move on with your life. Essentially, he's saying he's a good person because he only has 1 beer and I'm a bad person because I have more. Kinda pisses me off.
- More annoying than the above is that he's started giving me beer advice, and has even critiqued some of my beer. I'm happy to give him a taste, and I appreciate the input, but don't get all 'Beer-Advocate' on me after you've been drinking for 15 minutes. He told me my year-old Belgian Quad needed to age a little longer. Although he did say the color and head were dead-on. That really pissed me off!
I think I understand where you are coming from. Perhaps when he starts talking about his 1 beer rule you can find a way to politely thank him for catching up to modern Christian understanding. When he critiques beer then I would just smile and say "that is an interesting OPINION." This is my usual go to for people who are trying too hard to come off as beer experts. Some people like religion because it makes them feel better and some like it because they get to feel better than others. Just my .02.
The problem is that he's not a beer expert - he's 'THE BEER EXPERT'. It's actually pretty funny. It makes me laugh.
1 beer, huh?I'd like to hear people's take on this situation. I'm a Christian myself, and a good portion of my family would be considered Evangelical, so I'm used to the 'drinking is evil' attitude. I avoid drinking in situations where it would upset my relatives.
I know a guy who is an Evangelical Christian. He belongs to a non-denominational evangelical church that is pretty hard-core. Women only wear dresses - no pants allowed; Kids are home-schooled; yada yada....
He's been a very vocal anti-alcohol guy for years. I've had to listen to him preach about it. He's a nice guy, but it used to annoy the hell out of me. He's in a position where his preaching kind of impacts me a little in some situations. Personally, I don't care if you don't drink, but I don't want to get a lecture, or a comment when I'm drinking.
Recently, he's somehow been turned on to craft beer. I asked him how he can justify this after all the years of preaching about the evils of alcohol. His response is that it's OK to drink as long as he doesn't get a buzz. He only has 1 glass of beer. He likes Belgians, so I can't imagine 1 glass of a Quad isn't going to get you drunk, but whatever. Live and let live.
So 2 things have been bothering me:
Comments?
- I personally call bull**** on his whole argument. If your religious sect doesn't allow alcohol, then you shouldn't be drinking. Especially after all the years of preaching. If you want to drink a beer, just drink a beer. I don't needs an hour of justification and trying to make the rules fit your new lifestyle. Just say, I was wrong and move on with your life. Essentially, he's saying he's a good person because he only has 1 beer and I'm a bad person because I have more. Kinda pisses me off.
- More annoying, but funny, is that he's started giving me beer advice. He's even critiqued some of my beer. He told me my year-old Belgian Quad needed to age a little longer (Although he did say the color and head were dead-on
So, is that one 4.2% Bud Light, or one of the countless 9.0+% offerings in the craft world?
GHBWNY
Well-Known Member
Just remember the "Golden Malt" rule:
"Brew unto others as you would have them brew unto you."
"Brew unto others as you would have them brew unto you."
I'd like to hear people's take on this situation. I'm a Christian myself, and a good portion of my family would be considered Evangelical, so I'm used to the 'drinking is evil' attitude. I avoid drinking in situations where it would upset my relatives.
I know a guy who is an Evangelical Christian. He belongs to a non-denominational evangelical church that is pretty hard-core. Women only wear dresses - no pants allowed; Kids are home-schooled; yada yada....
He's been a very vocal anti-alcohol guy for years. I've had to listen to him preach about it. He's a nice guy, but it used to annoy the hell out of me. He's in a position where his preaching kind of impacts me a little in some situations. Personally, I don't care if you don't drink, but I don't want to get a lecture, or a comment when I'm drinking.
Recently, he's somehow been turned on to craft beer. I asked him how he can justify this after all the years of preaching about the evils of alcohol. His response is that it's OK to drink as long as he doesn't get a buzz. He only has 1 glass of beer. He likes Belgians, so I can't imagine 1 glass of a Quad isn't going to get you drunk, but whatever. Live and let live.
So 2 things have been bothering me:
Comments?
- I personally call bull**** on his whole argument. If your religious sect doesn't allow alcohol, then you shouldn't be drinking. Especially after all the years of preaching. If you want to drink a beer, just drink a beer. I don't needs an hour of justification and trying to make the rules fit your new lifestyle. Just say, I was wrong and move on with your life. Essentially, he's saying he's a good person because he only has 1 beer and I'm a bad person because I have more. Kinda pisses me off.
- More annoying, but funny, is that he's started giving me beer advice. He's even critiqued some of my beer. He told me my year-old Belgian Quad needed to age a little longer (Although he did say the color and head were dead-on
He's probably in a position where he is struggling with the difference between what he knows and what he believes. The way you describe the situation I wouldnt be surprised if he has been a closet drinker for years but feels pressure not to admit it......I say that with no negativity toward him , but that is a common thing.
I would just focus on what you have in common with him , the enjoyment of brewing and beer in general.
davesrose
Well-Known Member
I think Islam is the only main religion that shuns alcohol. I'm mainly Jewish myself (which is not anti-alcohol...wines are common for some holidays). Pretty sure Catholism is the same way. There may be some current evangilical churches that want to cast any alcohol (even beer) as sinful, but I think that's more an outcropping of the temperance movement vs actual religion.
I understand his position.
What's annoying is the fact that we're both drinking a beer, but since I'm on my 2nd beer I'm somehow less moral than he is. The fact that he actually says it is kind of hypocritical and insulting. I'm sure he has no idea he comes off this way.
sloanfamilydsm
Well-Known Member
I believe Jesus wants me to brew beer. No factual basis for this, just a gut feeling
One of the things that history tells us is water supplies were not so good and many people died because of it. were talking way back to the beginning, all the way trough Christianity and early 1900's
In fact, alcohol was a normal part of life. In Colonial America, the Puritans expected Christians to drink. In the 1700s, a Baptist created the formula for bourbon whiskey. During the 1800s, many Southern ministers operated stills, and sold alcohol. Parishioners who owned stills would tithe their alcohol; and preachers' salaries often included whiskey.
although it did get out of hand at times the main reason for alcohol was it was a sanitary drink
In fact, alcohol was a normal part of life. In Colonial America, the Puritans expected Christians to drink. In the 1700s, a Baptist created the formula for bourbon whiskey. During the 1800s, many Southern ministers operated stills, and sold alcohol. Parishioners who owned stills would tithe their alcohol; and preachers' salaries often included whiskey.
although it did get out of hand at times the main reason for alcohol was it was a sanitary drink
Yeah that could be really annoying.
You should be able to get in some good sarcasm when he makes those statements.......Hahaha!
If he thinks you are somehow less moral for drinking more beers , then own it.......drink two at a time
wardens355
Well-Known Member
The better understanding of microbiology has lead to effective drinking water treatment, but has also lead to better understanding of yeast, resulting in better beer. Beer is no longer a vital necessity for mankind, but remains a vital necessity for those that love to brew it.
ericbw
Well-Known Member
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I'd like to hear people's take on this situation. I'm a Christian myself, and a good portion of my family would be considered Evangelical, so I'm used to the 'drinking is evil' attitude. I avoid drinking in situations where it would upset my relatives.
I know a guy who is an Evangelical Christian. He belongs to a non-denominational evangelical church that is pretty hard-core. Women only wear dresses - no pants allowed; Kids are home-schooled; yada yada....
He's been a very vocal anti-alcohol guy for years. I've had to listen to him preach about it. He's a nice guy, but it used to annoy the hell out of me. He's in a position where his preaching kind of impacts me a little in some situations. Personally, I don't care if you don't drink, but I don't want to get a lecture, or a comment when I'm drinking.
Recently, he's somehow been turned on to craft beer. I asked him how he can justify this after all the years of preaching about the evils of alcohol. His response is that it's OK to drink as long as he doesn't get a buzz. He only has 1 glass of beer. He likes Belgians, so I can't imagine 1 glass of a Quad isn't going to get you drunk, but whatever. Live and let live.
So 2 things have been bothering me:
- I personally call bull**** on his whole argument. If your religious sect doesn't allow alcohol, then you shouldn't be drinking. Especially after all the years of preaching. If you want to drink a beer, just drink a beer. I don't needs an hour of justification and trying to make the rules fit your new lifestyle. Just say, I was wrong and move on with your life. Essentially, he's saying he's a good person because he only has 1 beer and I'm a bad person because I have more. Kinda pisses me off.
- More annoying, but funny, is that he's started giving me beer advice. He's even critiqued some of my beer. He told me my year-old Belgian Quad needed to age a little longer (Although he did say the color and head were dead-on
Comments?
Two comments.
1. Maybe your quad needs to age a little longer. What if he's right? That would suck!
2. You say "live and let live," but your attitude is not quite that. You may not need the hour of justification, but HE obviously does.
3. At least he won't be drinking all the beer.
Two
hopfool
Well-Known Member
...and Egyptians used it as a form of currency, and Jewish and Muslim dietary laws were based on common sense for a world without refrigeration or an understanding of microbes. Of course today these common sense maxims are used to further divide and isolate us from one another, so whatever happened to the sense?
Organized cults (and they are all cults, differing only in their numbers of adherents) once again reveal the hypocrisies that they all seem to suffer from.
That Old Testament God could be a pretty stern figure, what with all of that smiting and sundering, but I honestly can't recall the part of Christ's teachings that said "go out and conquer the world in my name".
Always leaves me shaking my head any time I witness some mere mortal telling supposed possessors of free will how they should conduct their lives. "Divinely inspired" no doubt.
Believe what you choose, just keep it between you and your god. Treat others as you would like to be treated, and most importantly of all... mind your own business. If we could just get all of the "True Believers" to adopt that simple philosophy, we'd all be a lot better off.
I should'a been a Belgian monk.
hopfool
Well-Known Member
Although I do think that a good argument could be made for the idea that it also helped people deal with what was a very bleak and tough existence. That is also of course what made it so easy to sell religion by no strange coincidence. The printing up of the Indulgences that Martin Luther railed against was such a big business back in Gutenberg's day that they actually out paced the printing of the Bible... but who wants to read about boring old history when we can go to church, temple, mosque, for the carrot and stick treatment?
Do as we say or else?
I need a beer!
Gluttony is rampant in some countries, particularly USA and England. I've seen a lot of it in Greece, too, which is a very religious country. But people say that they have funny genes and big bones and thyroid disease and this and that. Some of the big ones even claim that they hardly eat a thing but are just big anyway.
God knows the truth.
WVHomeBrewer
Member
I am deacon in my church and avid homebrewer. For ten years previously I made my own wine for the home. In this community of mostly German and Italian Americans our recipes have been handed down for generations. I share with the member of my church but we don't any drunken parties to speak of.
mattmmille
Well-Known Member
Gluttony and drunkedness can be found just about anywhere. Munich comes to mind...a place where the Hofbrauhaus goes year round. Certainly, there are degrees of drunkedness and gluttony. When you begin to feel the first effects of alcohol, after one drink, do you self identify as "drunk"? Am I a glutton if I eat one doughnut? Two? Six? It all seems a bit subjective. But there ARE people who are genetically prone to both higher weight and alcoholism. Sure, many can bring it upon themselves, some can be predisposed and still manage to control the condition somewhat, and some will fail despite all efforts to the contrary. It's not an excuse. For some, it is just a fact. BUT, if your extreme weight or alcoholism is caused by uncontrolled gluttony or a willful choice to drink alcohol non-stop, then you are basically committing a slow suicide.
GHBWNY
Well-Known Member
I use an NIV Study Bible for my daily reading. What's cool about this Bible is that there is a concordance in the back, so if you have a word or topic you are curious about finding a biblical reference to, it's there. So, I looked up the words "beer" and "wine", just to see what the Bible says about them. Old and New Testament combined, beer is mentioned once; wine, fifteen times. The references vary from, "...wine that gladdens the heart of a man", to, "Wine is a mocker and beer is a brawler". And I wonder why alcoholic beverage is mentioned in a favorable light in one verse and not so much in another?
Could it be that an alcoholic beverage is kind of like a gun? Could the saying, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" be applied to alcohol, too? How about, "Alcohol doesn't get you drunk, you get yourself drunk." Which is to say, both a gun with a round in the chamber and a beer in a bottle are harmless --- until used irresponsibly.
Wine/beer can either "gladden the heart", or become a "mocker" and a "brawler" depending upon responsibility of use. The apostle Paul speaks more than once about living ALL aspects of our life with "self-control". If our attitude toward, and consumption of, beer remains within the parameters of our ability to maintain self-control, then I see little if any problem with consumption of an alcoholic beverage. If it doesn't, then we get drunk.
Could it be that an alcoholic beverage is kind of like a gun? Could the saying, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" be applied to alcohol, too? How about, "Alcohol doesn't get you drunk, you get yourself drunk." Which is to say, both a gun with a round in the chamber and a beer in a bottle are harmless --- until used irresponsibly.
Wine/beer can either "gladden the heart", or become a "mocker" and a "brawler" depending upon responsibility of use. The apostle Paul speaks more than once about living ALL aspects of our life with "self-control". If our attitude toward, and consumption of, beer remains within the parameters of our ability to maintain self-control, then I see little if any problem with consumption of an alcoholic beverage. If it doesn't, then we get drunk.
Chops1867
Well-Known Member
I like this old saying about weed the arabs have, " Keef is like fire. A little warms, a lot burns". Moderation is all through the Bible. Odd that it mentions wine more than beer. History seems to be showing that beer was a far more common table drink than wine, which was more expensive even then.
We've clearly crossed the line from posting about people's experiences as a homebrewer in a faith community to theological/philosophical musings and beliefs in the last two pages of posts. That stuff belongs in the debate forum only - whatever your beliefs or thoughts about religion, many of the members here are going to disagree with you. And no one cares about what you believe or think about religion, pro or con, in the 'general beer discussion' forum. If you feel compelled to share your opinions about religion and faith, go to the debate forum.
Last chance to post about your experiences as a home brewer in a faith community. No more posting about what you think about religion or faith or your theology (this is how i read the bible etc.) Maybe this thread has run its course, we'll see.
Last chance to post about your experiences as a home brewer in a faith community. No more posting about what you think about religion or faith or your theology (this is how i read the bible etc.) Maybe this thread has run its course, we'll see.
GHBWNY
Well-Known Member
Maybe in light of no methods of keeping for long periods other than fermentation, wine keeps longer than beer?
Well, the problem with wine back then was the storage medium. Fired clay amphora were used to store it. But the clay not being coated as we do0 now lead to it's breathing. This is a sort of evaporative effect that concentrated the wine a bit. So that's why, when serving, it was mixed with seawater, spices, etc to "reconstitute" it. Beer was more commonly served, so it didn't last long to start with. Especially with the Egyptians, who paid the monument workers in beer.
I thought they stored it in goat skins. (same thing about permeability tho')
GHBWNY
Well-Known Member
This thread is a tremendous testament to this online community. Having read the first 3 pages, a couple in the middle and a few at the end I can't imagine I have many new ideas to expand the conversation, particularly enough to justify 'resurrecting', pun intended, this thread.
However being a preacher I often find it hard to keep my mouth shut. I'm a minister in the United Methodist denomination. Historically we're very close to the Episcopal/Church of England. John Wesley and his brother Charles the founders of the Methodist movement within the Church of England, and by extension founders of the Methodist church lived in a time of tremendous social upheaval in Britain and were contemporaries of fellow Protestant but Calvinist George Whitfield. Their society was in such a whirlwind of chance centered around the early effects of industrialization that many historians credit John Wesley & George Whitfield and the spiritual awakening they lead via their widespread ministry to the poor and impoverished with saving Britain from a bloody civil war not dissimilar to what France and the U.S. had just endured.
I write all of that to add the context that times were brutally hard as masses of people were leaving centuries old countryside farms to work in mines and factories in urban centers that were nothing more than crude violent shanty towns. As such during this time there was one gin shop in London for every 7 individuals including children. Got that, 1 distilled spirits proprietor for every 7 people. Thus in England the seeds of temperance were first sewn in the face of a society being ripped apart via change and self-medicating at staggering levels. It was basically an epidemic of squalor accompanied by an epidemic of drunkenness to mask the pain of wretched existence.
As people of faith, Christians especially, we tend to understand that we're created and meant for something more; we're intended for not just for mundane safety and prosperity but for challenge and passion and lives of meaning. When those possibilities are stripped away desperate people do desperate things. This lead to epidemics of drunkenness which lead to desperation within clergy looking to do the most good, most quickly.
As such John Wesley's relationship with alcohol was framed thusly by a friend, "John Wesley required the early Methodists to refrain from consuming distilled (strong) liquors. He did not ban fermented beverages such as beer and wine. He himself consumed fermented beverages especially wine throughout his life in moderation, though there were periods of time when he abstained from wine and meat for religious purposes. In fact he tells us in his journal that he consumed 8 ounces of wine every evening before bedtime (the last 20 years of his life). He also speaks in his journal about a time when he was traveling and stopped at a farmhouse for refreshment and was offered hard cider. He drank it cheerfully and was refreshed. He insinuated that he got a bit rare from it. Finally when Wesley preached at St Patrick’s in Ireland a young Arthur Guinness was in the congregation and was so impressed by Wesley’s message that he became a part of the Methodist movement in Ireland and was a leader in founding Sunday schools throughout Ireland. Guinness also became a great giver to the needs of the poor. He also continued to brew and sell his now famous Guinness Porter and Stout. Wesley never voiced any disapproval of his trade."
Okay, proof that I'm a lying preacher .... I had something new to add. Just trying to add context to how previously alcohol friendly Christianity morphed into staunch opposition. Like so many boondogles it was well intentioned. Yet like most all forms of control it denies the divine gift of freewill and self-governance granted to each individual. Peace and His grace be with you.
However being a preacher I often find it hard to keep my mouth shut.
I'm a minister in the United Methodist denomination. Historically we're very close to the Episcopal/Church of England. John Wesley and his brother Charles the founders of the Methodist movement within the Church of England, and by extension founders of the Methodist church lived in a time of tremendous social upheaval in Britain and were contemporaries of fellow Protestant but Calvinist George Whitfield. Their society was in such a whirlwind of chance centered around the early effects of industrialization that many historians credit John Wesley & George Whitfield and the spiritual awakening they lead via their widespread ministry to the poor and impoverished with saving Britain from a bloody civil war not dissimilar to what France and the U.S. had just endured.I write all of that to add the context that times were brutally hard as masses of people were leaving centuries old countryside farms to work in mines and factories in urban centers that were nothing more than crude violent shanty towns. As such during this time there was one gin shop in London for every 7 individuals including children. Got that, 1 distilled spirits proprietor for every 7 people. Thus in England the seeds of temperance were first sewn in the face of a society being ripped apart via change and self-medicating at staggering levels. It was basically an epidemic of squalor accompanied by an epidemic of drunkenness to mask the pain of wretched existence.
As people of faith, Christians especially, we tend to understand that we're created and meant for something more; we're intended for not just for mundane safety and prosperity but for challenge and passion and lives of meaning. When those possibilities are stripped away desperate people do desperate things. This lead to epidemics of drunkenness which lead to desperation within clergy looking to do the most good, most quickly.
As such John Wesley's relationship with alcohol was framed thusly by a friend, "John Wesley required the early Methodists to refrain from consuming distilled (strong) liquors. He did not ban fermented beverages such as beer and wine. He himself consumed fermented beverages especially wine throughout his life in moderation, though there were periods of time when he abstained from wine and meat for religious purposes. In fact he tells us in his journal that he consumed 8 ounces of wine every evening before bedtime (the last 20 years of his life). He also speaks in his journal about a time when he was traveling and stopped at a farmhouse for refreshment and was offered hard cider. He drank it cheerfully and was refreshed. He insinuated that he got a bit rare from it. Finally when Wesley preached at St Patrick’s in Ireland a young Arthur Guinness was in the congregation and was so impressed by Wesley’s message that he became a part of the Methodist movement in Ireland and was a leader in founding Sunday schools throughout Ireland. Guinness also became a great giver to the needs of the poor. He also continued to brew and sell his now famous Guinness Porter and Stout. Wesley never voiced any disapproval of his trade."
Okay, proof that I'm a lying preacher .... I had something new to add.
Just trying to add context to how previously alcohol friendly Christianity morphed into staunch opposition. Like so many boondogles it was well intentioned. Yet like most all forms of control it denies the divine gift of freewill and self-governance granted to each individual. Peace and His grace be with you.
This sermon is ended, go in peace...buuuuirp...
hopfool
Well-Known Member
This thread is a tremendous testament to this online community. Having read the first 3 pages, a couple in the middle and a few at the end I can't imagine I have many new ideas to expand the conversation, particularly enough to justify 'resurrecting', pun intended, this thread.
However being a preacher I often find it hard to keep my mouth shut.
I write all of that to add the context that times were brutally hard as masses of people were leaving centuries old countryside farms to work in mines and factories in urban centers that were nothing more than crude violent shanty towns. As such during this time there was one gin shop in London for every 7 individuals including children. Got that, 1 distilled spirits proprietor for every 7 people. Thus in England the seeds of temperance were first sewn in the face of a society being ripped apart via change and self-medicating at staggering levels. It was basically an epidemic of squalor accompanied by an epidemic of drunkenness to mask the pain of wretched existence.
As people of faith, Christians especially, we tend to understand that we're created and meant for something more; we're intended for not just for mundane safety and prosperity but for challenge and passion and lives of meaning. When those possibilities are stripped away desperate people do desperate things. This lead to epidemics of drunkenness which lead to desperation within clergy looking to do the most good, most quickly.
As such John Wesley's relationship with alcohol was framed thusly by a friend, "John Wesley required the early Methodists to refrain from consuming distilled (strong) liquors. He did not ban fermented beverages such as beer and wine. He himself consumed fermented beverages especially wine throughout his life in moderation, though there were periods of time when he abstained from wine and meat for religious purposes. In fact he tells us in his journal that he consumed 8 ounces of wine every evening before bedtime (the last 20 years of his life). He also speaks in his journal about a time when he was traveling and stopped at a farmhouse for refreshment and was offered hard cider. He drank it cheerfully and was refreshed. He insinuated that he got a bit rare from it. Finally when Wesley preached at St Patricks in Ireland a young Arthur Guinness was in the congregation and was so impressed by Wesleys message that he became a part of the Methodist movement in Ireland and was a leader in founding Sunday schools throughout Ireland. Guinness also became a great giver to the needs of the poor. He also continued to brew and sell his now famous Guinness Porter and Stout. Wesley never voiced any disapproval of his trade."
Okay, proof that I'm a lying preacher .... I had something new to add.
Historically when socio-economic upheaval comes to the fore, there are two industries that always seem to benefit, alcoholic libation and the selling of religion. A coincidence, I think not. Traumatized and or confused peoples are always easier to manipulate... especially drunken ones.
Organized religion has always managed to accomplish two objectives, to simultaneously aggregate wealth in the hands of a few while attempting to keep the poor from murdering the few that have accumulated the wealth. It's really quite the perfect scam when ya get right down to it... "give me your money today and you will receive a special prize when you die".
With access to people's kids from their earliest age anyone could quite easily convince them that my dog was their lord and savior, and by extension motivate them to kill anybody that wasn't one of us by posing them as a threat to our beliefs. Historically this has been proved time and time again, and quite obviously, it's still working very efficiently even today. All it takes is the right songs, anthems, prayers, peer pressure and some good ol' fashioned mass hysteria (think Nazi Party rally... or Evangelical televangelist stadium, the behaviors and manipulations are the same).
Education has nothing to do with susceptibility to these manipulations, as they become so well entrenched in the social fabric that they are for all intents and purposes self perpetuating to a point. 1930's Germany for example had one of the best educated populations on the planet, albeit one torn asunder by hyper inflation and social unrest, always the perfect storm for religious and political zealotry to take root. Our rulers learned long ago that hungry, scared, people are a lot easier to rule, whether it's accomplished by making food too expensive (rice prices and the the recent "Arab Spring") or a simple carrot and stick that offers an escape from the drudgery of life in the Middle Ages to those "faithful" who learn to accept their plight on earth as some sort of ridiculous penance for original sin. It's all made a whole lot easier when ya let'em drink.
"Get your indulgences here... save your dearly departed from an eternity in Pergatory!" "Special today only, just a jug of mead and a goat to release little Jenny from Limbo!"
Fun fact. The printing of Indulgences actually out paced the Bible by the time Marty was dealt with at the Diet of Worms in 1521.
So, we have the Methodist movement as an outgrowth of the Church of England, which variously has managed to somehow maintain a certain level of Catholicism, most importantly the concept of tithing, something all of the modern religious organizations eschew I'm sure.
Why do you think the Major League sports industries are so closely tied to the alcoholic beverage industry? Drinking makes for better athletes?
It's all just another in a long line of manipulations to keep folks from peaking behind the curtain. Better that you stay glued to your vidiot box and drunk on rocket fuel all weekend long than read a book or question the logic of what you've been told. Politics and religion, like major sporting events, seem best enjoyed or tolerated when under the influence.
Regarding John Wesley's drinking, yet another perfect example of Christian hypocrisy being rationalized away as acceptable behavior by the true believers. He does deserve credit for singling out and identifying the perfect potential customer base though. Probably the most easily duped and susceptible crowd in early industrialized England. Religion doth love suffering.
BTW... where exactly was it that Jesus said it was a good idea to kill other people? I must have missed that Bible study class.
Funny guy... referencing "Christianity" and "Free Will" together. That's Hilarious!
Also funnily enough, you attribute Wesley and his "Connexion" with having "saved" England from a bloody civil war. Just who do you supposed that saving actually served? The plight of the proletariat, or perhaps more significantly, the existing social order, which is to say it kept the down trodden that his biographers claim he served, right where they already were. He just tried to convince them that they were supposed to stay that way, suffer, and like it... 'cuz they could win the really big prize in the afterlife. Basically what I stated above. He managed to help keep the poor from murdering the rich. English workers did nothing to help themselves on this earth by joining Wesley's church. So how was it that he managed to survive whilst out preaching to the down trodden. Did he have a real job or was he dependent on his ability to sponge off of those who did? Again, as previously stated... the Royal Scam. Long live the status quo, er ah... King!
Congrats to any and all who can manage to pull off selling religion or convincing people that they want to serve the greater good... by not getting a real job. I'm just jealous.
God I need a beer.
And it was going so well. I smell the "Debate Forum" in our future.
"Funny guy... referencing "Christianity" and "Free Will" together. That's Hilarious! "
Actually, Christians believe that it is this free will that let's you write a bazillion words to just say "I hate religion." That's cool, whether Christians believe god gave you the free will, or god doesn't exist so you have free will by default and Christians are wrong doesn't really matter.
My take... Just like the song. "God is great, beer is good, people are crazy."
Actually, Christians believe that it is this free will that let's you write a bazillion words to just say "I hate religion." That's cool, whether Christians believe god gave you the free will, or god doesn't exist so you have free will by default and Christians are wrong doesn't really matter.
My take... Just like the song. "God is great, beer is good, people are crazy."
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