Cheap compact wort pump

[JustLooking]

And I find it hypocritical for someone to say everything coming out of china is questionable and these are all just as likely to be unsafe and we shouldn't trust the manufacturers documentation, but yet in the same paragraph he goes on to say since the American middleman (us solar) who buys the pumps from the Chinese manufacturer says they are food grade he believes they are?

I can see where you might take it as hypocritical. What I tried to say was I trust (actually hope would be a better word) that US Solar or Topsflo are big enough that they're doing quality control on their imported products to check that they are being made to their specs. The links you've given for the eBay tan pumps appear to be small distributors or individuals that I doubt do any inspection before reselling the pumps.

You have the choice to believe a large US distributor is doing quality control on their imported products or that information coming from China is accurate, but don't be fooled by someones claims that they know something when none of it is based on accurate testing done in the US [...] US Solar says that they're food grade and there's nothing based on accountable facts to make me believe otherwise.

 

[KPSquared]

This thread is funny. A Coke bottle is "food grade"... Do you know how much crap leeches from that plastic? Most of us are going to die of cancer anyways... Just buy what you can afford and stop worrying about it. They put TSP in Cheerios... We've got bigger things to worry about.

 

[augiedoggy]

I can see where you might take it as hypocritical. What I tried to say was I trust (actually hope would be a better word) that US Solar or Topsflo are big enough that they're doing quality control on their imported products to check that they are being made to their specs. The links you've given for the eBay tan pumps appear to be small distributors or individuals that I doubt do any inspection before reselling the pumps.

Fair enough...
I have only found evidence that the tan pumps I linked are all made by topsflo and since they dont make or market a non food grade version of this style pump the cheaper resellers appear to be just a cheaper way to get the same pump with a longer wait...
I'm open to entertaining otherwise if someone has some data to back it up or even indicate it might have some basis..
Like I mentioned before, the first pump I bought and paid more for had the commercial labeling on it and I have bought 5 of these all from different sellers, so far when taking them apart they are all identical with completely interchangeable parts (12v and 24v do have different enclosures though)
it seems these are made and sold in bulk for different OEM applications (water fountains or refrigerator water systems as example and this may be why some come with runbber feet or not and different or lack of labeling..

 

[Konadog]

Here is a pic I just took of one of the pumps I dropped and snapped (parts pump now) ... anyway you can clearly see the stainless shield behind the impeller and the coated magnet as well as the ceramic shaft...
When I took apart my $30 abs topsflo knockoff (which does not have abs stamped on it like I originally thought btw but the manufactuer does state that's what's used) I found the magnet was bare and exposed to the wort... hopefully someone with the $60-70 real topsflo can inspect the internals and let us know if the magnets are in fact coated/ food grade since it will give a real indication as to whether effort was put into manufacturing the for food grade use...

First off, thanks for all the research you and other have put into these pumps. Are you saying that "most" of the tan pumps have a coated magnet, and none of the black pumps are coated? I was looking at a few of the links you provided (this one in particular):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Solar-12V-2...t=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=&hash=item4869c1fd4c

And I don't see it stated anywhere.

 

[augiedoggy]

First off, thanks for all the research you and other have put into these pumps. Are you saying that "most" of the tan pumps have a coated magnet, and none of the black pumps are coated? I was looking at a few of the links you provided (this one in particular):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Solar-12V-2...t=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=&hash=item4869c1fd4c

And I don't see it stated anywhere.

YES
I am 100% sure that pump has a coated magnet. (because I bought one of the same pumps from the same seller)
I'm saying all of THESE STYLE TAN 24v and 12v pumps do in fact have coated magnets. as for the other style tan pumps, I have not bought any but they all advertise as being food grade with coated magnets and are mainly marketed for food grade use by all the major suppliers unlike the black topsflo model pumps...

The black topsflo hot water pumps are advertised as being molded of food grade plastic but thats were the similarity ends...Theres no mention of whether the magnets that are exposed to the food liquid except to say they are "ceramic ferrite" what that means besides stating it has both an iron and ceramic based composition I dont know? is the ferrite magnet ceramic coated or blended with the ferrite? I have enough iron in my beer... I dont need more, it lends a nasty off flavor from what I've read.

 

[Konadog]

YES
I am 100% sure that pump has a coated magnet. (because I bought one of the same pumps from the same seller)

Thanks! I've been looking for a pump to whirlpool with (5 gal batches) and I think the 24v should work just fine.

 

[JustLooking]

Theres no mention of whether the magnets that are exposed to the food liquid except to say they are "ceramic ferrite" what that means besides stating it has both an iron and ceramic based composition I dont know? is the ferrite magnet ceramic coated or blended with the ferrite?

I don't know either, but would speculate that the iron is not exposed. As I've mentioned earlier, many times I've left the magnet damp for weeks on end and never seen any sign of rust. From my experience, it doesn't take long for it to develop on wet unprotected iron. This is with both the black Topsflo and the clone. Not conclusive evidence, but something to consider.

 

[augiedoggy]

I don't know either, but would speculate that the iron is not exposed. As I've mentioned earlier, many times I've left the magnet damp for weeks on end and never seen any sign of rust. From my experience, it doesn't take long for it to develop on wet unprotected iron. This is with both the black Topsflo and the clone. Not conclusive evidence, but something to consider.

After doing some reading it appears that the ferrite is actually a ceramic based compund infused with iron oxide and other "metallic elements"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrite_(magnet)
I too noticed my magnet didnt rust but still one has to wonder if this stuff and leech into the liquid especially when you have compressed liquid flowing against its surface... if it didnt matter why did shenpeng state that technically in order to be a food grade pump the magnet needed to be coated? and why bother coating the magnets on pumps designed for food use if it really doesnt matter?

 

[augiedoggy]

looks like this question came up before ..and a chuggerpumps rep answered it with this statement,

"All that is up for debate among brewers...I strongly believe that any food processed fluids( especially when they are heated) should be in contact with FDA food grade materials only. Ceramic Ferrite magnets are not FDA. These all come form China. All the Chugger and March magnets are encapsulated in Stainless just for this purpose. How much did you pay for this pump with Shipping ?"

and

"There is no such thing as a food safe magnet! We are dealing with Ferrite metals here..definitely not food safe. No HI- Jack intending here ..I just cant stand it when false statements are made about food safe materials . On all other brands of brew pumps the magnets are encased in either SS or Polysulfone FDA grade plastic ....this is for a reason! Dont be mislead

My 2 cents ..maybe we both should be deleted? Joe ...call me would love to discuss further
MIKE 800-810-1053"
and yet another quote from him

"High temp food grade coating?? We have been selling FDA grade pumps for 20 years...never heard of it? Please forward what this is ..we could spray all of aour cast iron pumps with it and make them food grade?

The point here is it does not exist!"


https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/looking-pump-input-317600/index13.html

it appears that 3 years ago SOME of the topflo pumps being sold had started being modified and had the magnets coated with a visable coating some of the older pumps had a less robust clear silicone based coating... according to what I'm still reading the stainless threaded ones had the better coating but not the brass of plastic...

according to chugger pumps testing the topsflo only had 2gpm flow with little head pressure... thats actually the same as I measure with my tan 24v pump with my rotometer pumping from the bottom of my kettle thru my rims and up into the top of another...



Here is another quote from a big reseller "beerpumpsect" (GreatbrewEH) from 3 years ago
"I can tell you the product is silicone which we all use in the tubing (FOOD GRADE) including us. I cannot tell you the specific product as we have worked hard to modify this pump for this purpose and continue to do so like any other decent company. The newest coating is going to be more apparent in attempt to end the doubt. I am certain the certification will meet all expectations.

Please be assured these are not the same pumps others refer to from ebay, they are the same basic motor and ryton head but that's it, they were designed for another purpose all together.

Finally one day in the future, (please do not email when) we are working on an all stainless steel head so once again we can totally put this to bed. There are many brewing days ahead so don't wait.

PS. I have loved mine and continue to happily use them but those who wish to pay more for other brands because they feel it is a better choice for themselves, I completely support you in that decision and wish you happy brewing with whatever equipment gets you to the finish line.

GBE"




so it looks like the the all stainless head TD4 has been at least 3 years in the making and the first shipment went out on 06-12-2012, (sorry wbarber69 but they didnt design it for you) and unless you have a "noticable coating" on the magnet you have one of the questionable pumps not modified for berr pump use...

 

[JustLooking]

looks like this question came up before ..and a chuggerpumps rep answered it with this statement,

And here he replies that there's no such thing as a food grade coating like the tan pump have.

High temp food grade coating?? We have been selling FDA grade pumps for 20 years...never heard of it? Please forward what this is ..we could spray all of our cast iron pumps with it and make them food grade?

The point here is it does not exist!

[...] in the pump world there are no Food Grade Magnets pumping fluids at 212F. 3600 rpm. They just don't exist..As always I would love to discuss further anytime
Mike 800-810-1053

Looks like we have to buy Chugger's.

 

[augiedoggy]

and just for those wondering about the tan ones read the last page of the thread above...

" polyphenylene sulfide" is food grade "PPS"

 

[augiedoggy]

And here he replies that there's no such thing as a food grade coating like the tan pump have.





Looks like we have to buy Chugger's.

Or maybe just think resonably and buy a pump with a REAL COATING on the magnet instead of the invisible silicone one no one can even tell or prove exists...LOL the magnets are encased inside the plastic its not just a coating...

 

[JustLooking]

...LOL the magnets are encased inside the plastic its not just a coating...

That makes more sense. I've heard the word coated thrown around here, but didn't take it to mean encased.

 

[crane]

I bought one of the TD5 pumps from ussolar recently. The first one died on me the first time while recirculating the mash at 155F. I got a replacement and ran it for 3 hours straight without any issues. I used it to brew yesterday and it stopped working while I was raising temps for mashout. The wort was at 166F the it stopped pumping. I hang the pump off my mash tun. I think it stopped pumping because the motor was too hot. However this is much below the stated max temp of 230F. I tried it out just now and it is working so it's not completely broke like the first one. I'm gonna test it out some more at temperature to see if it is thermal issue. Anyway I decided to take it apart to see what's going on in the pump head. The magnet is not exposed to the liquid the pump is pumping. There is a black plastic piece pressed into the metal housing that seperate the pump head from the magnet. I'm assuming there is some sort of bushing, seal, etc around the white shaft to prevent liquid from entering the magnet compartment but I can tell and don't want to break anything by trying to pull the black plastic piece out.

View attachment 1422809349315.jpg

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[crane]

I also own one of the great brew eh pumps which are supposed to be food safe. Mine did come with some sort of coating on the magnet. After about 8 months of use I took it apart to see that the coating was flaking off. Another 4 months later and the coating is completely gone, so I guess it's no longer food safe.

View attachment 1422810065688.jpg

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[wbarber69]

I bought one of the TD5 pumps from ussolar recently. The first one died on me the first time while recirculating the mash at 155F. I got a replacement and ran it for 3 hours straight without any issues. I used it to brew yesterday and it stopped working while I was raising temps for mashout. The wort was at 166F the it stopped pumping. I hang the pump off my mash tun. I think it stopped pumping because the motor was too hot. However this is much below the stated max temp of 230F. I tried it out just now and it is working so it's not completely broke like the first one. I'm gonna test it out some more at temperature to see if it is thermal issue. Anyway I decided to take it apart to see what's going on in the pump head. The magnet is not exposed to the liquid the pump is pumping. There is a black plastic piece pressed into the metal housing that seperate the pump head from the magnet. I'm assuming there is some sort of bushing, seal, etc around the white shaft to prevent liquid from entering the magnet compartment but I can tell and don't want to break anything by trying to pull the black plastic piece out.

The pump will shut off if over temperature, run-dry, or under/over voltage. You may have a bad power supply. Or you aren't taking into consideration that pumps create heat. And while the water in the center of your HLT may read 164 the water temp where you're pump is pulling from May be directly under or near your heat source. While I do not know your exact setup, I can say that use my td5 to circulate boiling wort before and during my whirlpool chilling run. And I've only seen it shut off from temp once or twice in the past during summer months when chilling takes about 10 minutes longer to accomplish.

 

[Falcon3]

I gotta say, this is great. I've read every forum and every thread I could find on these little pumps, and the best/most accurate info to come out has been in the last week. Thanks for all the info guys!

Special thanks to crane for putting up those great pic- I've been curious about the TD5 for a while and never found good info on them- do you have any trouble getting it to prime in that configuration? I've been just putting mine in standard remote placement (like you would with a March), but I lose a lot of heat with the amount of tubing I've got. However, with the increased head pressure from having my pump low, I do seem to get a better GPM on the output.

 

[JustLooking]

The magnet is not exposed to the liquid the pump is pumping.

I don't know, but from this picture it looks like the magnet is in the stainless steel cylinder, but that liquid still surrounds the magnet. What it looks like the sleeve is doing is stopping fluid from contacting the plastic motor housing. Have you pulled out the magnet? Is the magnet itself encased in plastic or stainless?

 

[augiedoggy]

the liquid is almost certainly surrounding and coming in contact with the magnet.(I dont see the space for bearings in the pic of the base of that stainless housing).. Its used as the lubricant as with all pumps of this type that I've seen. I use these type of pumps in my aquariums and the magnets usually get a lime/ calcium build up on them in that environment

What is nice about the TD5 is the wort doesnt come in direct contact with any plastic so no worries about what type of plastic is used...
however the it looks as if magnet still comes in contact with the wort.... it seems the coating is there more for marketing reasons than actually providing any real long term protection... instead you get to consume the coating broken down into your beer before possibly the magnet material..... AWESOME!

My topsflo knock off would overheat and kick off from time to time which ironically made it less dependable than the tan ones with no such protection (never had an issue with the tan ones from heat either)

 

[JustLooking]

Just sent an email to US Solar about this TD5 and their other Topsflo type pump discussed in this thread. Got an interesting reply:

My email

I'm looking for a pump that's more food safe than the 12VTSS11.5L that I'm currently using. It looks like a stainless sleeve on this pump prevents fluid from contacting the plastic housing, but not the magnet. Is the magnet on this pump or the 12VTSS11.5L food safe? Is the magnet itself encased in plastic or stainless? Or doesn't it have to be to be considered food safe?

Michael P. Kehoe from US Solar

The TD5 does keep the fluid from the magnet however the 12VTS511.5L’S magnet is a nonferrous magnet and so should not be a concern.
Mike

 

[wbarber69]

When I contacted ussolarpumps about the stainless enclosure of the td5 I was assured that the liquid does not come into contact with the magnet.

 

[mattd2]

And here he replies that there's no such thing as a food grade coating like the tan pump have.





Looks like we have to buy Chugger's.

So Chugger are basically saying that their pumps would not be food grade either if this debate about exposed magnets is determined to be true?????

and just for those wondering about the tan ones read the last page of the thread above...

" polyphenylene sulfide" is food grade "PPS"

PPS = polyphenylene sulphide = Ryton (AKA the same stuff march impellers are made from) - but just because it is made of PPS does not specifically make it food safe. But similarly just because it is not certified as food safe doesn't mean it isn't

Just sent an email to US Solar about this TD5 and their other Topsflo type pump discussed in this thread. Got an interesting reply:

My email


Michael P. Kehoe from US Solar

If they are saying the plate and seal keep liquid out of the impeller magnet space why bother with building a mag coupled pump, why not just use that shaft seal and directly connect the pump to the motor, i.e. why bother with the stainless "cups" piece if no liquid is apparently getting in there anyway?


Last point:
Has nobody noticed that even the stainless heads still use a plastic impeller, etc.

As for my decisions - I am comfortable enough with the tan pumps that if I were to buy a new one that is what I would get, in 24Vdc... but that's just me

 

[augiedoggy]

Chugger uses a sealed head were the liquid never enters the actual pumps motor.

 

[augiedoggy]

I find it strange that us solar claims the magnets are not ferrous... When the specs stated a ceramic magnet which would be an iron based ferrite magnet no?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrite_(magnet)

If not what gives it the magnetic properties?

 

[augiedoggy]

PPS = polyphenylene sulphide = Ryton (AKA the same stuff march impellers are made from) - but just because it is made of PPS does not specifically make it food safe. But similarly just because it is not certified as food safe doesn't mean it isn't



As for my decisions - I am comfortable enough with the tan pumps that if I were to buy a new one that is what I would get, in 24Vdc... but that's just me

True.... But then there is the fact that topsflo builds and markets the tan pps ones (along with all their tan colored dc pumps) for food grade use unlike the black ones which were for solar hot water recirculation until rebadged for wort pump use ...

 

[mattd2]

Chugger uses a sealed head were the liquid never enters the actual pumps motor.

but it still flows around the impeller magnet just like these DC pumps- it is just that on the DC pump the motor magnet and the impeller magnet are actually the same thing.

I find it strange that us solar claims the magnets are not ferrous... When the specs stated a ceramic magnet which would be an iron based ferrite magnet no?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrite_(magnet)

If not what gives it the magnetic properties?

I'm going to guess pixie dust?

True.... But then there is the fact that topsflo builds and markets the tan pps ones (along with all their tan colored dc pumps) for food grade use unlike the black ones which were for solar hot water recirculation until rebadged for wort pump use ...

Sorry all I was meaning by the comment was you can't categorically rule something out through lack of evidence - but you should get more info if there is no evidence (and not just take the fact it is a wort pump to mean it is ok to use). I am sceptical of the black pumps and would not use one on my beer because everything is not adding up - as you say it was a solar hot water pump and now it can be used for wort as well with seemingly no change of design, etc. - if you look at the topsflo US website you see that the solar heating circuit is isolated from the potable water circuit so that no water you would drink can actally go through the pump.

Long story short, I (think I) am agreeing with you

 

[orangehero]

The March/Chugger impeller's magnet is encased in stainless steel.

 

[mattd2]

The March/Chugger impeller's magnet is encased in stainless steel.

Just found that out

I know those advocating for the TD5 are saying it's not about the power but comparing with a probably typical 3m/10' system head the flow difference (from the pump curves) is 8L/min (TD5) vs. 19L/min (Chugger). It is a pretty huge difference considering the equal price.

 

[wbarber69]

You're also dealing with a much larger horsepower motor. And the reason these pumps are magnetically driven isn't just to seal the motor away from the liquid it's so the impeller can get stuck without burning up the whole motor. It's totally feasible that not all pumps use the liquid as a lubricant. Since a magnetically driven impeller shaft wouldn't need lubricant if it is balanced properly.

 

[mattd2]

You're also dealing with a much larger horsepower motor. And the reason these pumps are magnetically driven isn't just to seal the motor away from the liquid it's so the impeller can get stuck without burning up the whole motor. It's totally feasible that not all pumps use the liquid as a lubricant. Since a magnetically driven impeller shaft wouldn't need lubricant if it is balanced properly.

So a Chugger has a 1/20HP motor = 37W (but interesting they list it as 29W which is the same as March's 1/25HP motors????)
25W -> 29W is not much of an increase to me - well it at least doesn't account for the drastic reduction in power/flow.

 

[wbarber69]

So a Chugger has a 1/20HP motor = 37W (but interesting they list it as 29W which is the same as March's 1/25HP motors????)

25W -> 29W is not much of an increase to me - well it at least doesn't account for the drastic reduction in power/flow.

The topsflo td5 maxes out at 15w so it's not anywhere close to the March/chugger pumps. You can't complain about half the flow rate when the pump is half the size.

 

[mattd2]

The topsflo td5 maxes out at 15w so it's not anywhere close to the March/chugger pumps. You can't complain about half the flow rate when the pump is half the size.

From the US Solar datasheet it doesn't http://www.ussolarpumps.com/pdf/TD5PumpUSSP.pdf
The 15W pump curve shows that at 3m head it would be pumping nothing! So then lets compare a 2m head and assume the TD5 is operating at 15W - that would give a theoretical 8.5 L/min, compared to Chugger's 24 L/min (operating at the far right of its curve).
Where is it stated that the TD5 is 15W? It does say the 5-25W is optional (I'm guessing they mean they have different sized motors) but the US Solar website states that for the TD5 listed on their website for US$138 the max flow/head are 22L/min & 4.5m (which are actually over the values on the flow curve for the 25W model but lets let them have a little bit of licence for that one - ok just reread through the datasheet and those are the figures listed as the specs, but they are still not matching the curves!). But I would be calling BS on them if they are trying to state that the stats on the website are actually 30-50% more than the documentation provided (by that same website)
This just goes further to increase the uncertainty that US Solar actually know (or care) what BS they are spinning on their supposable food safe pumps

 

[wbarber69]

Apparently all this talk comes from people who don't even own the pumps they talk **** about.

 

[lapoltba]

Apparently all this talk comes from people who don't even own the pumps they talk **** about.

You don't need to own a pump to look at datasheets and marketing claims with suspicion. We're all just looking for answers and truth here. When the US reseller of these pumps can't even get their information straight it really makes you wonder if they even know what they are selling at all. Good luck getting a straight, honest, and accurate answer from any other Chinese seller. I've made attempts in the past to import and resell things like this and it is hopeless. USsolar seems to be trying very hard and having some success. Good for them.

I, like everyone else would love to find a cheaper option, but I'm not enough of a cheap bastard to buy a pump not suitable for food use. Especially when they are the same price as one that is more powerful and better suited.

 

[wbarber69]

They may be better suited for you. But everyone's needs are different

 

[lapoltba]

They may be better suited for you. But everyone's needs are different

This has been my point all along. If you (read: anyone) are comfortable using a pump that isn't *really* safe for use with food or hot liquids then you are welcome to use it. I have yet to get real confirmation that the TD5 is actually, really, truly food safe. You can believe the US importer and various Chinese marketing info that all conflict with each other all you want. That's your choice too. I have always been a skeptic and will continue to be until I see actual evidence.

Yes, the little topsflo pumps may suffice for many, but when it comes down to getting equivalent safety and quality (stainless housing, food safe internals etc.) you can't argue that the topsflo pumps come out on top, especially when you compare specs vs. price. I still have yet to see the internals of the TD5 other than the post by "justlooking". In that picture it isn't clear how the magnet is separate from the liquid. I'm pretty sure the conclusion was made that an un-encapsulated magnet was not food safe and could potentially leech metals and/or chemicals into the liquid being pumped.

The little tan pumps may be a reasonable compromise, but I still wouldn't use them for anything other than recirculating in the HLT and pumping to the MT.

 

[wbarber69]

Well thousands of other homebrewers across the globe are using them and it doesn't seem to bother them one bit

 

[lapoltba]

Well thousands of other homebrewers across the globe are using them and it doesn't seem to bother them one bit

You don't read too well do you? I'm pretty sure I said that it was their choice and I don't agree. You and anyone else can do and believe whatever you want. End of story.

 

[mattd2]

Apparently all this talk comes from people who don't even own the pumps they talk **** about.

Why would I want to own one with the issue being pointed out here? More expensive, not any more food safe than other pumps, questionable stats - yeah that's got me really wanting to buy one of their solar heating circuit pumps for my beer

 

[augiedoggy]

Apparently all this talk comes from people who don't even own the pumps they talk **** about.

So what your saying is if the information shared about the pump YOU own isn't pleasent, then its automatically "talking ****"?.... We are trying to compare facts and opinions objectively, Obviously those facts and opinions are not going to automatically align with your biased opinions because you own one